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A little bit of Conflict for hurting people with the Force?

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7 minutes ago, TheShard said:

A few feet is certainly within engaged range.

Nope. Engaged, as per RAW basically requires that you be able to make physical contact. If you can't touch it, you're not engaged with it. 

3 minutes ago, Rossbert said:

Assault is defined as any unauthorized physical contact.  While I would not argue that the Force would go that far, Bind (without any inflicting upgrades) is pretty close to the equivalent of forcing someone into a straitjacket, or using a taser, or one of those nifty hardening goo guns, or any number of less-lethal devices.  While obviously less so than shooting someone, I don't know anyone who would argue inflicting such on someone isn't an aggressive, hostile act regardless of the necessity or justification.

Except that technically, Yoda was authorized to do so by Jedi mandate and by their charter with the Republic. Palpatine was an unlawful usurper. Everything he was doing was in complete violation of Republic law. He usurped Senate authority (and tricked them into believing this was a good thing), masterminded a war for the sole purpose of overthrowing the rightful government and to destroy the Jedi. Yoda was obligated to stop Palpatine and either arrest him or put him down permanently. A Jedi must not allow evil to flourish through inaction. Palpatine was a threat to the very survival of the Republic and the Jedi. Yoda had no choice but to put to face him. 

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Sorry, unauthorized as in unwanted. Against the subjects will.

I agree Palpatine needed to be stopped, but that argument is like saying a surgeon didn't ACTUALLY cut you because he took out a tumor that would have killed you.

Edited by Rossbert
Took out a duplicate word

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2 minutes ago, Rossbert said:

Sorry, unauthorized as in unwanted. Against the subjects will.

I agree Palpatine needed to be stopped, but that argument is like saying a surgeon didn't ACTUALLY cut you because he took out a tumor that would have killed you.

The difference is that Yoda's actions were fully Justified. That is why there would be no Conflict. He was acting in the defense of the Republic, of the Jedi, of the galaxy against an active threat. He was acting to defend the galaxy against someone who was actively attacking the Jedi, actively overthrowing the lawful government (through deception), who actively masterminded a horrific war simply to further his own go, who just ordered the extermination of the Jedi, and was clearly a skilled combatant as well, who had just taken down several members of the Jedi Council single-handed. 

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That is where the conflict (pun unintended) lies.

I do not believe the Force cares that way. If Palpatine were unconcious it would still be a conflict-worthy murder. I agree Yoda was justified, morally, strategically and tactically. Nuking from orbit would have even been worth it. He did still start a violent conflict. He poked a small hole in the tapestry of the universe to prevent a giant tear, but he did poke that hole.

You seem to hold that the Force does hold an action's impact is based on what may happen in the future. If strong-arming a thug and scaring him prevents him  from killing someone in the future it is acceptable and does not impact the Force. It leads to very low conflict games since it is easier to justify doing things for a greater reason.

You should not get offended or defensive that many people disagree on fundamental Force theory. There are several approaches and which is accurate depends on whose table it is.

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17 minutes ago, TheShard said:

Engaged as RAW is:

 

"The Engaged status simply indicates that two things are close enough to each to other to directly interact" 

 

Nothing about physically touching enters into the description on page 215 of FaD.

And Yoda was not close enough to directly interact. In order to do so, he would need to move at least a few feet. The same with the guards. They were not in a position to directly interact with Yoda. The rules are talking about physical interaction. Every example it gives revolves around physical contact. To activate a control console, you need to physically touch it. To strike an opponent, you need to be able to physically touch him/her. If you can't make physical contact, you are not in engaged range. Yoda can't directly interact with the two guards, nor they him, because of their relative positions. Therefore, they are no longer in engaged range. 

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32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And Yoda was not close enough to directly interact. In order to do so, he would need to move at least a few feet. The same with the guards. They were not in a position to directly interact with Yoda. The rules are talking about physical interaction. Every example it gives revolves around physical contact. To activate a control console, you need to physically touch it. To strike an opponent, you need to be able to physically touch him/her. If you can't make physical contact, you are not in engaged range. Yoda can't directly interact with the two guards, nor they him, because of their relative positions. Therefore, they are no longer in engaged range. 

Maybe if you're boxing. But in fencing the range of engagement is anytime two fencers are close enough to join blades. That's fencing 101. Fencing 102 is that it's always farther than you think. A basic lunge would put Yoda's blade through a guard. And they have pikes, that's gonna have an even longer engagement zone. Hell, I had an instructor that had an engagement range of almost 10 meters. He used to make new students back up "out of reach" and then he'd skewer them with a lunge.

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There is nothing RAW that says physical contact.

 

If I'm with in a lunge's distance, it's direct. If I have to take a step then a lunge I'm able to directly interact. RAW is satisfied, and RAI it makes much more sense to do it this way when you look at how they narratively handle attacks. It's a few shots, one precise shot, a haymaker or a series of jabs... And in doing so your character is not only taking a step in to attack but backing a step or two out to dodge a return attack. Mechanically this is all engaged, because it's considered to be one attack roll or one defend roll. One roll represents possibly multiple attacks or near misses, multiple lunges or side steps.

Edited by TheShard

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3 hours ago, TheShard said:

If I understand engaged, being that it's not an exact measurement but a narrative description of close enough for combat then doesn't it work much like a knife or brawl fight? 

 

An attack is not simply one punch or a single blaster shot or single thrusting stab. An attack is a narrative description of what could be a few blows thrown or a quick flurry of shots.

 

In a knife fight each opponent is engaged, however both might be taking turns making thrusts and taking a step back to avoid. Even while engaged, they wouldn't always be close enough to actually be stabbed, however this is handled narratively rather then mechanically. 

 

So while Yoda might only be able to cut a couple toe's if he swung his saber while standing completely still in the exact position he landed, in fact the step or two it would take to really gut the guy with a saber is well within the engaged range, it would be the same change in distance a lunge or dodge would carry our knife fighters in the above example.

 

While it's technically a little outside of the weapon's range, it's close enough to fit narratively with engaged.

You certainly have a point, but at the same time Yoda is certainly not engaged to either of the two guards in that way, he is standing there, not engaged in anything similar to knife or any other form of combat to either of them and he could not engage both at the same time, he would need to commit to one, which suggest making an engage maneuver. It not like a maneuver would be a big action either. Let me grab Trumps quote, he actually wrote one of the important things for this situation in bold even *g*

"… spending a maneuver to engage someone or something is as much a matter of moving into combat cautiously enough to avoid receiving a blow unnecessarily as it is moving a physical distance." 

The guards in the example are unconscious anyway in this example, but in case they would have been just knocked down, than Yoda is not at all in a position for combat. Once you are engaged you start to dance with your opponent for position and try to avoid hits, while searching for openings yourself, just like you describe it from a knife fight. But that is certainly not the position Yoda has moved the guards into, he moved them outside of that range and position, just slightly but notable.

Anyway, it's late, just a last quick suggestion for the imagination of those who think Yoda is still engaged with both guards. If the guards would be that way on the ground and have their blasters drawn, would you think that their shot would be extra difficult because of their and yoda's positioning?  

 

33 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Judge him by his size, do you?

It works the other way around as well, he is out of their melee range as well. ;-) 

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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This has gotten rather pointless. Tramp is employing mechanical concepts that don't even apply to this game to justify his position. So long as he's doing that there is going to be no reasoning with him. I think we've reached the point where any productive conversation that could have been had has been had. 

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On 2/17/2017 at 0:43 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

And, as I said, even if Yoda had used Hurl, they could not have suffered nearly enough wound damage to incapacitate them. They didn't even suffer half of their wound threshold. We're not talking Minion class Storm troopers here. We;'re talking Nemesis class Royal Guards with a wound threshold of 16 and a Soak of 5. Hurl is not going to cut it. 

There has already has been a lot of discussion of this particular point in other threads, and it is not profitable to further derail the post through this series of rabbit trails. It makes it harder for people to contribute to any of the multiple discussions being had in a single thread. I'm a big fan of involvement, so I vote for new threads rather than a series of disagreements over tangential points.

Check out this post I linked below, as well as the thread in general. I especially like the idea of Yoda using the Fated Duel signature ability when approaching Palpatine. Much more flavorful, and cinematically appropriate. But perhaps we can all better try to move discussions to where they belong.

 

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Yoda using Fated Duel is definitely an interesting idea except that I believe the general consensus on Yoda's career path (as a PC) would be Consular, not Guardian, and thus, would not be able to take Fated Duel. Obviously, that is open to debate, but, pretty much all previous RPG versions of Yoda, and his general role in the Order as seen in the movies, place him in the Consular role. 

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9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda using Fated Duel is definitely an interesting idea except that I believe the general consensus on Yoda's career path (as a PC) would be Consular, not Guardian, and thus, would not be able to take Fated Duel. Obviously, that is open to debate, but, pretty much all previous RPG versions of Yoda, and his general role in the Order as seen in the movies, place him in the Consular role. 

General consensus? I didn't know you put stock in such things, Tramp. With the treatment you've given to general consensus, I would think such arguments to be beneath you ;)

The "Consular" career in the game is not equivalent to the role of the legendary "Jedi Consular" (as variegated and ill-defined such a role was in EU material), and really does not fit Yoda particularly well.

[minirant]

Further, I would think that function and on-screen abilities would be a better indicator than a mostly meaningless quasi-title created after the fact by an RPG system trying to classify the various Jedi we see into weirdly shoehorned roles for no other reason than to try and match the system bloat that its progenitor is known for (and then color-code them, of all things).

:angry:

[/minirant]

As a grandmaster of the Jedi Order, Yoda could be built as PC at a ridiculously high XP level. There's no real reason to say he's a Consular instead of a Guardian, in terms of in-game careers. And given that we see him use either Unmatched Heroism or some talents from the Soresu Defender tree (or perhaps both), as well as a possible use of Fated Duel, I would be comfortable statting him out as a several-hundred-XP Guardian. He starts with free ranks in Cool, Vigilance, and Discipline. He would probably have purchased into at least Ataru Striker, Niman Disciple, Seer, possibly Force Sensitive Emergent, and Hermit. I could see Force Sensitive Exile as a flavorful choice, following his fight with Darth Sidious.

 

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39 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

As a grandmaster of the Jedi Order, Yoda could be built as PC at a ridiculously high XP level. There's no real reason to say he's a Consular instead of a Guardian, in terms of in-game careers. And given that we see him use either Unmatched Heroism or some talents from the Soresu Defender tree (or perhaps both), as well as a possible use of Fated Duel, I would be comfortable statting him out as a several-hundred-XP Guardian. He starts with free ranks in Cool, Vigilance, and Discipline. He would probably have purchased into at least Ataru Striker, Niman Disciple, Seer, possibly Force Sensitive Emergent, and Hermit. I could see Force Sensitive Exile as a flavorful choice, following his fight with Darth Sidious.

The fact that we first see Yoda ~800 years into his career as a Jedi Master means that we really have NO idea what career he started as.  He could very well have started on the Soresu path, focusing on using his lightsaber to defend instead of attack, only later branching out into Ataru as his experience and powers both grew.  There's certainly never been any "consensus" that I've seen about what his starting career was, because I don't recall it ever being important to a discussion before we started talking about Signature Abilities.

And in terms of Signature abilities...I would certainly agree that Fated Duel fits both the Siduous fight and the Dooku fight.

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On 17.2.2017 at 1:12 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, they were wrong to fight the war against the Separatists. They were manipulated into that. However, Yoda was not wrong to try and kill Palpatine. That was necessary. He had an obligation to do so. 

You really are still at Ezra's level. Or Anakin's  for that matter. That kind of reasoning is exactly what leads to the darkside. And just for your information, without the first assassination attempt of the jedi against Palpatine, he would had a hard time to justify order 66 to the senate. Instead he has an respected hero of the republic and video-material as proof for his allegation against the jedi of staging a coup. For christ sake, they actually did try a coup. 

Furthermore the jedi ****** up when they hunted Fives down and ignored the clones warning on the biochips, they choose violence over listening, just like they did with Ahsoka. And they continued that path with Palpatine, who could have been stopped with a diplomatic solution instead. That would have taken a lot more time and it would have taken a lot more effort and it would have prevented Anakin from joining Palpatine at least at that moment. 

And again, Yoda knew already what the destiny of the jedi order was, he just was not willing to accept the will of the force, he felt obligated to try violence instead of patience. And it made things worse. 

"To the end we are coming now. No longer certain, that one ever does win a war, I am. For fighting in battles, the bloodshed, already lost we have. Yet open to us a path remains, that unknown to the Sith there is. Through this path victory we may yet find, not victory in the clone wars, but victory for all time." - Yoda, 19 BBY and before order 66 

Edited by SEApocalypse
typos

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On 2/20/2017 at 0:35 AM, awayputurwpn said:

General consensus? I didn't know you put stock in such things, Tramp. With the treatment you've given to general consensus, I would think such arguments to be beneath you ;)

The "Consular" career in the game is not equivalent to the role of the legendary "Jedi Consular" (as variegated and ill-defined such a role was in EU material), and really does not fit Yoda particularly well.

[minirant]

Further, I would think that function and on-screen abilities would be a better indicator than a mostly meaningless quasi-title created after the fact by an RPG system trying to classify the various Jedi we see into weirdly shoehorned roles for no other reason than to try and match the system bloat that its progenitor is known for (and then color-code them, of all things).

:angry:

[/minirant]

As a grandmaster of the Jedi Order, Yoda could be built as PC at a ridiculously high XP level. There's no real reason to say he's a Consular instead of a Guardian, in terms of in-game careers. And given that we see him use either Unmatched Heroism or some talents from the Soresu Defender tree (or perhaps both), as well as a possible use of Fated Duel, I would be comfortable statting him out as a several-hundred-XP Guardian. He starts with free ranks in Cool, Vigilance, and Discipline. He would probably have purchased into at least Ataru Striker, Niman Disciple, Seer, possibly Force Sensitive Emergent, and Hermit. I could see Force Sensitive Exile as a flavorful choice, following his fight with Darth Sidious.

 

Yoda has pretty much been the "Poster Child" for Consulars, For certain, back on D20, he was a Consular, first and foremost, Not only that, but the movies portray him more as the diplomat, aesthetic, and scholar, more than a warrior. So, yes, Consular does fit Yoda more than Guardian. 

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26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda has pretty much been the "Poster Child" for Consulars, For certain, back on D20, he was a Consular, first and foremost, Not only that, but the movies portray him more as the diplomat, aesthetic, and scholar, more than a warrior. So, yes, Consular does fit Yoda more than Guardian. 

Again, you're assuming that the Consular career is the same thing as the "Consular" role, which is not the case. Consulars in this game "do embrace some of the same philosophies and practices" of Jedi Consulars, but they are not equivalent.

By the same token, reading the Guardian career description on pages 72-73, much of what is said there describes Yoda to the tee. "Strong sense of responsibility and compassion," "prodigious combat prowess and natural leadership skills," "cool confidence coupled with an air of nobility and authority," "defensive combat style matches his concern for life," and it goes on. Thinking here of Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, Episode 1 of The Clone Wars...Yoda seems more than willing to throw down when it is required of him, even though he seems to consider the preservation of life a priority. This is more "Guardian" than "Consular" in this system.

I've been a Star Wars book & game junkie since I could read books. I think I must've played KotOR through more than a hundred times. I feverishly studied d20 sourcebooks (never really got into WEG, much to my later chagrin). I understand that Yoda was considered to be a Jedi Consular, especially within the old EU's C-Canon. He's got the green lightsaber and everything :) But the Jedi Consulars of the Old Republic ain't the same thing as the Consulars in this game. 

 

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Just now, awayputurwpn said:

Again, you're assuming that the Consular career is the same thing as the "Consular" role, which is not the case. Consulars in this game "do embrace some of the same philosophies and practices" of Jedi Consulars, but they are not equivalent.

By the same token, reading the Guardian career description on pages 72-73, much of what is said there describes Yoda to the tee. "Strong sense of responsibility and compassion," "prodigious combat prowess and natural leadership skills," "cool confidence coupled with an air of nobility and authority," "defensive combat style matches his concern for life," and it goes on. Thinking here of Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, Episode 1 of The Clone Wars...Yoda seems more than willing to throw down when it is required of him, even though he seems to consider the preservation of life a priority. This is more "Guardian" than "Consular" in this system.

I've been a Star Wars book & game junkie since I could read books. I think I must've played KotOR through more than a hundred times. I feverishly studied d20 sourcebooks (never really got into WEG, much to my later chagrin). I understand that Yoda was considered to be a Jedi Consular, especially within the old EU's C-Canon. He's got the green lightsaber and everything :) But the Jedi Consulars of the Old Republic ain't the same thing as the Consulars in this game. 

 

The Consular career is specifically drawn from and patterned after the Jedi Consular of old. The only real difference is the lack of formal training in the Jedi arts during the Rebellion era.  I've been into Star Wars since I saw  ANH  at the drive-in in 1977, when it was still known only as Star Wars. Yoda is most certainly a Consular, in particular, I'd classify him as a Consular: Teacher, Ascetic, Sage, with Araru Striker as an OoC spec.  

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