Using DareDevil AND push the limit

[Stoneface 3,750]

13 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

If the card says:

1. Do a thing.
2. Then do another thing.

The "then" in 2 happens after you have done the thing in 1 and after you have resolved all triggered effects that triggered while you were doing the thing in 1. Including anything triggered by something that triggered off the thing in 1, etc.

I was referring to when in the Activation Phase. Movement, Check Stress or Cleanup. Does it happen after Check Pilot Stress or after Cleanup?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 minute ago, Stoneface said:

I was referring to when in the Activation Phase. Movement, Check Stress or Cleanup. Does it happen after Check Pilot Stress or after Cleanup?

It depends on which card you're looking at.

The Then on Daredevil happens after the manoeuvre has been executed and probably after the 'after executing a manoeuvre' trigger step, but within the process of performing the Daredevil action.

Various others happen at different times.

[Stoneface 3,750]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

It depends on which card you're looking at.

The Then on Daredevil happens after the manoeuvre has been executed and probably after the 'after executing a manoeuvre' trigger step, but within the process of performing the Daredevil action.

Various others happen at different times.

The reason I asked pertains to Kanan's ability which triggers after cleanup, per the FAQ. If it happens before cleanup Kanan should be able to remove the stress from anything that caused it from after movement to after check pilot stress but before cleanup. If it happens after cleanup, which is the same time Kanan triggers, the player has the option for the order in which stress is applied.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

The reason I asked pertains to Kanan's ability which triggers after cleanup, per the FAQ. If it happens before cleanup Kanan should be able to remove the stress from anything that caused it from after movement to after check pilot stress but before cleanup. If it happens after cleanup, which is the same time Kanan triggers, the player has the option for the order in which stress is applied.

Effects that tell you to do multiple things in a particular order do not create implied timing chains where step 2 is a triggered effect that happens "after" step 1. You resolve step 1. If you want to trigger anything "after" what you did in step one, do it now. Once you're done doing all that, you move on to step 2. There's no opportunity to manipulate timing to get Kanan to clear stress that hasn't happened yet by the time his triggering event happens.

[Stoneface 3,750]

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

Effects that tell you to do multiple things in a particular order do not create implied timing chains where step 2 is a triggered effect that happens "after" step 1. You resolve step 1. If you want to trigger anything "after" what you did in step one, do it now. Once you're done doing all that, you move on to step 2. There's no opportunity to manipulate timing to get Kanan to clear stress that hasn't happened yet by the time his triggering event happens

Oh crap! Brain Fart on my end. Just realised that perform action can have the same sub-steps as the maneuver phase. I really, really hate getting old!

[digitalbusker 2,248]

25 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Oh crap! Brain Fart on my end. Just realised that perform action can have the same sub-steps as the maneuver phase. I really, really hate getting old!

Oh, I see. Yeah, if you Execute a Maneuver as part of your Perform Action step, you import the whole Execute a Maneuver sequence.

[Stoneface 3,750]

On 2/20/2017 at 2:12 PM, digitalbusker said:

Oh, I see. Yeah, if you Execute a Maneuver as part of your Perform Action step, you import the whole Execute a Maneuver sequence.

Ok, this harkens back to the Kanan and Inertial Dampeners thread. Since using ID is done during the movement phase, Kanan should be able to remove the stress caused by ID. But according to an email ruling from Frank it doesn't, which doesn't make any sense. 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it in light of our recent exchange.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

It does make sense if you actually read the arguments being presented.

'After doing a thing do another thing' and 'Do a thing.  Then, do a different thing', are different triggers in x-wing.  Another thing happens before, and is completely resolved before, a different thing.

This is how PTL/EI stacking works - the 'after performing an action, perform an action from your bar/from a damage card' happens and is fully resolved before the 'then gain a stress'.

This has no bearing on Daredevil, because the ENTIRE text of the card, is all happening as part of its action, so you can't stack any actions afterwards, because you're stressed.

And talking about Kanan and IDs in this thread is probably confusing matters.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

12 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, this harkens back to the Kanan and Inertial Dampeners thread. Since using ID is done during the movement phase, Kanan should be able to remove the stress caused by ID. But according to an email ruling from Frank it doesn't, which doesn't make any sense. 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it in light of our recent exchange.

Okay, normally the Activation of an individual ship looks like this:

• Reveal Dial
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps)
• Perform Action

Add in the trigger points for Inertial Dampeners and Kanan and you have:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Inertial Dampeners triggers here.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps)
• Events that trigger "after you execute a maneuver":
  • Kanan can trigger here.
• Perform Action

Now, what does Inertial Dampeners do to this sequence? Inertial Dampeners says "you may discard this card to instead perform a white [stop] 0 maneuver." Instead of what? It can't be "instead of revealing your dial" because that doesn't make any sense. So it must be "instead of performing the maneuver you revealed on your dial". (They would have worded it like Navigator or Stay on Target and explicitly told you to change the revealed dial, except the whole point of Inertial Dampeners at release was that nobody who could equip it had a [stop] on their dial.) After that it says "Then receive 1 stress token.". So, the sequence with Inertial Dampeners included (but leaving Kanan out for now) looks like this:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Discard Inertial Dampeners.
  • Execute (a white [stop] 0) Maneuver (with all its substeps)
  • Receive a stress.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps). Doesn't happen now, because you did the Inertial Dampeners maneuver instead.
• Perform Action

So far so good. Now, add Kanan:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Discard Inertial Dampeners.
  • Execute (a white [stop] 0) Maneuver (with all its substeps)
    • Events that trigger "after you execute a maneuver":
      • The maneuver was white, so Kanan can trigger here, but you haven't received the stress from ID yet, so unless you were already stressed (which is entirely possible) there's nothing for him to do.
  • Receive a stress.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps). Doesn't happen now, because you did the Inertial Dampeners maneuver instead.
• Perform Action

 

[Stoneface 3,750]

29 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

Okay, normally the Activation of an individual ship looks like this:

• Reveal Dial
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps)
• Perform Action

Add in the trigger points for Inertial Dampeners and Kanan and you have:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Inertial Dampeners triggers here.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps)
• Events that trigger "after you execute a maneuver":
  • Kanan can trigger here.
• Perform Action

Now, what does Inertial Dampeners do to this sequence? Inertial Dampeners says "you may discard this card to instead perform a white [stop] 0 maneuver." Instead of what? It can't be "instead of revealing your dial" because that doesn't make any sense. So it must be "instead of performing the maneuver you revealed on your dial". (They would have worded it like Navigator or Stay on Target and explicitly told you to change the revealed dial, except the whole point of Inertial Dampeners at release was that nobody who could equip it had a [stop] on their dial.) After that it says "Then receive 1 stress token.". So, the sequence with Inertial Dampeners included (but leaving Kanan out for now) looks like this:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Discard Inertial Dampeners.
  • Execute (a white [stop] 0) Maneuver (with all its substeps)
  • Receive a stress.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps). Doesn't happen now, because you did the Inertial Dampeners maneuver instead.
• Perform Action

So far so good. Now, add Kanan:

• Reveal Dial
• Events that trigger "when you reveal your maneuver":
  • Discard Inertial Dampeners.
  • Execute (a white [stop] 0) Maneuver (with all its substeps)
    • Events that trigger "after you execute a maneuver":
      • The maneuver was white, so Kanan can trigger here, but you haven't received the stress from ID yet, so unless you were already stressed (which is entirely possible) there's nothing for him to do.
  • Receive a stress.
• Execute Maneuver (with all its substeps). Doesn't happen now, because you did the Inertial Dampeners maneuver instead.
• Perform Action

 

I'm beginning to think I'm the inspiration for Tull's Thick as a Brick. 

To me, the only thing that changes when ID is played, is the lack of movement templates and no cleanup. Is that it? No clean-up, no Kanan? 

 

[digitalbusker 2,248]

9 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I'm beginning to think I'm the inspiration for Tull's Thick as a Brick. 

To me, the only thing that changes when ID is played, is the lack of movement templates and no cleanup. Is that it? No clean-up, no Kanan? 

 

You can totally still Kanan. It's just that he happens inside Inertial Dampeners (just like PtL happens inside EI).

The full sequence of Inertial Dampeners doesn't replace the normal Execute Manuever step. One part of Inertial Dampeners replaces the Execute Maneuver step and then you keep going with the rest of Inertial Dampeners. Once you're done with Inertial Dampeners, which doesn't even look like words now, you move on to the rest of the ship's Activation, with Perform Action.

Kanan triggers after you execute a maneuver. ID involves executing a maneuver, and Kanan can trigger off that, but executing a maneuver is neither the last thing nor the entire thing that ID does, so Kanan has to happen during the execution of ID.

And it just so happens that, at the point inside ID where Kanan has to happen if he's going to happen at all, ID hasn't given you any stress yet.

[Stoneface 3,750]

12 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It does make sense if you actually read the arguments being presented.

'After doing a thing do another thing' and 'Do a thing.  Then, do a different thing', are different triggers in x-wing.  Another thing happens before, and is completely resolved before, a different thing.

This is how PTL/EI stacking works - the 'after performing an action, perform an action from your bar/from a damage card' happens and is fully resolved before the 'then gain a stress'.

This has no bearing on Daredevil, because the ENTIRE text of the card, is all happening as part of its action, so you can't stack any actions afterwards, because you're stressed.

And talking about Kanan and IDs in this thread is probably confusing matters.

You're right, bringing this up here is confusing the matter with DD and for that I apologise. I have read the the arguments for ID and I'll go back and re-read them.

[Parravon 5,217]

11 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I'm beginning to think I'm the inspiration for Tull's Thick as a Brick. 

To me, the only thing that changes when ID is played, is the lack of movement templates and no cleanup. Is that it? No clean-up, no Kanan? 

 

There still is a Clean Up substep.

Execute Maneuver
2.c Clean Up: Return the maneuver template to the pile of maneuver templates. Place the revealed dial outside the play area next to the ship’s Ship card. 

So no template was used? One less thing to clean up. You still remove the dial (which is now showing your redundant manoeuvre thanks to ID). Clean Up now done, get Kanan to report to the cockpit to do his thing before things get stressful (ID).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Parravon