Using DareDevil AND push the limit

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

The trigger for PTL is having performed the Daredevil Action.

The sequence is:

• Daredevil (action):
• Perform the maneuver
• As you have performed an action this round, PtL triggers (nests into daredevil)
• Perform Action from your action bar
• Then, add stress from Push The Limit
• Then, add stress from Daredevil

You could even insert another 'triggered by action ability' right after 'Push the limit', such as 'Experimental interface', which in this case, would lead to the ship ending with 3 stress tokens.

For example, Jake with Daredevil, Push the Limit and Experimental Interface could:

• Focus
• By gaining a focus token, perform a barrel roll action
• As an action has been performed, trigger push the limit
• Perform a boost
• As an action has been performed, trigger experimental interface (nests into PtL)
• Daredevil (nests into experimental interface).
• Then, stress from daredevil
• Then, stress from experimental interface
• Then, stress from push the limit

Then, use "Comms booster" from a nearby epic ship to remove all the stress and give Jake another focus token. Ah! the advantages of playing epic...

The rules are pretty clear in that 'triggered by action' abilities can nest into each other. Experimental interface and PtL can be used together (one action triggers another) and the stress from both abilities apply after resolving both actions.

There is no argument about triggering an action with Push the Limit after expert handling's barrel roll. The FAQ EXPLICITLY SAYS YOU CAN do it. 

 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Except that the action 'daredevil' is

 

Perform Manoeuvre

Roll damage if applicable

Take stress.

Nothing on the card or in the rules indicates that only part of the text on the card comprises its action.

You're doing something that the card doesn't say.  Don't do what the card doesn't say.

 

Where is your reference to indicate that the 'manouevre' part of darevil is the only part that counts under its Action: header?

Or conversely, would you say the same thing about Rage?

[Vineheart01 6,403]

1 hour ago, Jehan Menasis said:

The trigger for PTL is having performed the Daredevil Action.

The sequence is:

• Daredevil (action):
• Perform the maneuver
• As you have performed an action this round, PtL triggers (nests into daredevil)
• Perform Action from your action bar
• Then, add stress from Push The Limit
• Then, add stress from Daredevil

Explain to me how you are able to cut away part of the card under an "Action" header and magically not make it PART of the action, thus making it a mandatory effect before you have finished the action?

Stress from Daredevil is not a separate entity. Its part of the action, thus, you are stressed before PTL/EI can trigger.

Furthermore, if you could do that, you could fully do all additional actions n whatnot before rolling for Daredevil action since thats AFTER the stress bit on the card. Anything with the Action header is treated as the action, you have to fully complete the card before you have completed the Action. PTL/EI are not an action themselves, thats why you can interrupt their stress.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Vineheart01

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

20 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Explain to me how you are able to cut away part of the card under an "Action" header and magically not make it PART of the action, thus making it a mandatory effect before you have finished the action?

It doesn't matter 'in what' the action consists, or what you have to do to fulfill or complete it.

It only matters that it's an action. Daredevil has the 'action' header. Thus, it's an action. It triggers anything that is triggered 'after performing an action'.

Regarding Rage, everything is in the wording. Rage assigns you a focus and 2 stress token simultaneously, due to its wording. However, cards such as Daredevil, PtL, Expertise, contain the expression "Then, ..." indicating that you gain the stress after performing the action, not simultaneously.

Wording is also why some cards give you the stress before performing the ability, as it happens with abilities such as 'Opportunist'. In order to increase your attack, you have to take the stress first.

It's the 'Then,...' clause the one which allows the 'nesting' effect. As soon as you perform the action, whether it is performing a maneuver, or assigning a token to your ship, you have already triggered the other card... "Then," you would have to gain a stress token, BUT you have to resolve first the new ability you have already triggered, before receiving the stress.

 

20 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Stress from Daredevil is not a separate entity. Its part of the action, thus, you are stressed before PTL/EI can trigger

If what you guys are defending were true, then you couldn't use experimental interface after using PtL. I mean, you could take an action, PtL... but then, you couldn't use experimental interface because you are already stressed by PtL.... right?

However, the rules disagree with you. The FAQ specifically states that you can use Experimental Interface triggered by the 'Push the limit' action. And viceversa. You can use the action you choose from 'Experimental interface' to trigger an additional action with PtL. And then, gain the cumulative stress from both abilities.

That's the power of the "Then, ..." clause, and why/how 'nested' actions work.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Jehan Menasis

[DeathstarII 1,164]

1 minute ago, Jehan Menasis said:

It doesn't matter 'in what' the action consists, or what you have to do to fulfill or complete it.

It only matters that it's an action. Daredevil has the 'action' header. Thus, it's an action. It triggers anything that is triggered 'after performing an action'.

Regarding Rage, everything is in the wording. Rage assigns you a focus and 2 stress token simultaneously, due to its wording. However, cards such as Daredevil, PtL, Expertise, contain the expression "Then, ..." indicating that you gain the stress after performing the action, not simultaneously.

Wording is also why some cards give you the stress before performing the action, as it happens with abilities such as 'Opportunist'. In order to increase your attack, you have to take the stress first.

It's the 'Then,...' clause the one which allows the 'nesting' effect. As soon as you perform the action, whether it is performing a maneuver, or assigning a token to your ship, you have already triggered the other card... "Then," you would have to gain a stress token, BUT you have to resolve first the new ability you have already triggered, before receiving the stress.

 

If what you guys are defending were true, then you couldn't use experimental interface after using PtL. I mean, you could take an action, PtL... but then, you couldn't use experimental interface because you are already stressed by PtL.... right?

However, the rules disagree with you. The FAQ specifically states that you can use Experimental Interface triggered by the 'Push the limit' action. And viceversa. You can use the action you choose from 'Experimental interface' to trigger an additional action with PtL. And then, gain the cumulative stress from both abilities.

That's the power of the "Then, ..." clause, and why/how 'nested' actions work.

Daredevil doesn't say 'perform a  free white hard 1 action then receive one stress token', if it was worded that way, you could ptl/experimental interface off of it because of the performing of an action, however, daredevil does not include action aside from it's header, so the entire card must finish before EI/PTL can trigger

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Just now, DeathstarII said:

Daredevil doesn't say 'perform a  free white hard 1 action then receive one stress token', if it was worded that way, you could ptl/experimental interface off of it because of the performing of an action, however, daredevil does not include action aside from it's header, so the entire card must finish before EI/PTL can trigger

Daredevil is the action itself.

In fact, due to the nature of the ability, it triggers both 'after performing an action' and 'after performing a maneuver' abilities.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, Jehan Menasis said:

Daredevil is the action itself.

In fact, due to the nature of the ability, it triggers both 'after performing an action' and 'after performing a maneuver' abilities.

After maneuver would interrupt daredevil, after action would not because the entire card is the action, not just the white hard 1

[Vineheart01 6,403]

1 minute ago, Jehan Menasis said:

If what you guys are defending were true, then you couldn't use experimental interface after using PtL. I mean, you could take an action, PtL... but then, you couldn't use experimental interface because you are already stressed by PtL.... right?

i literally just explained that in my post.

If theres an ACTION header, the ENTIRE CARD is the action. Nothing indicates at this word the action is done but you still got the rest of this crap to deal with for some reason. How are you magically deciding that ONLY the 1turn maneuver is the action and not the rest of the words? How would that apply to other action headers with a lot of words? Only the first sentence?

PTL/EI are NOT actions, nor do they have the Action header. That is why you can interrupt them and not Daredevil. The entire Daredevil card is the action, you cant finish performing an action while you are still doing the action.

The only way you could PTL in the middle of a wordy action is if the wordy action tells you to do an action within the action (see R7T1 or Expert handling). Daredevil does not have such a clause, so where is this magical point in the middle of the card that lets you PTL before the stress?

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Just now, DeathstarII said:

After maneuver would interrupt daredevil, after action would not because the entire card is the action, not just the white hard 1

The action is performing the white hard 1 maneuver. As soon as you did that, you have already triggered 'After performing an action' and 'after performing a maneuver' abilities.

I know it's hard to swallow guys, but really, that's how it works.

All of this has been discussed at length before... like 5 or 6 waves back. You are just late to the discussion.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Just now, Jehan Menasis said:

The action is performing the white hard 1 maneuver. As soon as you did that, you have already triggered 'After performing an action' and 'after performing a maneuver' abilities.

I know it's hard to swallow guys, but really, that's how it works.

All of this has been discussed at length before... like 5 or 6 waves back. You are just late to the discussion.

Really? Where? A maneuver is not an action, otherwise it couldnt bump. Daredevil can totally bump and hit rocks.

Nothing indicates that ONLY the maneuver is the action. Why would this card only have that be the action while other wordy actions use the entire card?

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

The only way you could PTL in the middle of a wordy action is if the wordy action tells you to do an action within the action (see R7T1 or Expert handling). Daredevil does not have such a clause, so where is this magical point in the middle of the card that lets you PTL before the stress?

As I said, "Then, ... " is the magical point.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Then literally means nothing when theres no Action in the description of what youre doing. Its not the only action that has two or even three parts.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, Jehan Menasis said:

The action is performing the white hard 1 maneuver. As soon as you did that, you have already triggered 'After performing an action' and 'after performing a maneuver' abilities.

I know it's hard to swallow guys, but really, that's how it works.

All of this has been discussed at length before... like 5 or 6 waves back. You are just late to the discussion.

No. That is not how the card works at all, you are just reading it that way so you can get away with it. For a card to trigger PTL/EI the word action needs to be mentioned other than the header the header is just saying the entire card is the action

 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

Really? Where? A maneuver is not an action

Daredevil is the action by itself, independently of what you have to do to fulfill it, whether it consists on assigning tokens, performing a maneuver, kissing your opponent, or even performing another action.

Kylo Ren [crew] doesn't say anywhere in the text that you have to perform an 'action'... However you can use PtL after it, right? Because just by having the 'Action:' header, is considered that you have performed an action. The same with Daredevil.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

1 minute ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Daredevil is the action by itself, independently of what you have to do to fulfill it, whether it consists on assigning tokens, performing a maneuver, kissing your opponent, or even performing another action.

Kylo Ren [crew] doesn't say anywhere in the text that you have to perform an 'action'... However you can use PtL after it, right? Because just by having the 'Action:' header, is considered that you have performed an action. The same with Daredevil.

Because the kylo action doesn't assign stress from doing it, here's a question i pose to you, are you able to PTL/EI off of fleet officer/general hux?

[Vineheart01 6,403]

You do realize by saying "Daredevil is the action by itself" you just said the ENTIRE CARD is the action because thats the name of the card. Nowhere in the card does it say "Do the Daredevil action" or anything of that nature.

Words on a card are part of that card and dont magically become something else. If "Daredevil is the action by itself" then guess what? Youre stressed before you finished performing an action.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

19 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Because the kylo action doesn't assign stress from doing it, here's a question i pose to you, are you able to PTL/EI off of fleet officer/general hux?

No, of course not.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

No, of course not.

I know, i was asking the guy because he seems to think you can PTL/EI off of daredevil, when you can't (unless you're tycho or have "chopper" crew)

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I now see where the problem lies. It seems that the meaning of the "Then" clause, isn't strictly clear.

Some of us (me included) interpret it as an "after the action punishment" (in the daredevil's example)... As something that is different from the action, or 'added' as a consequence of the action, but not the action itself... While now is clear to me what you guys are arguing, hmm.

Of course, you have to complete all the card's text, that's out of the question... But when the clause "Then," appears... When are you considered to have performed -strictly speaking- 'an action'? And so, when exactly the trigger occurs?

Is the text after the "Then," clause an 'after effect' of the action or not?

Interesting question. I do not recall if it has been discussed before or not.

 

[jmswood 2,706]

1 hour ago, DeathstarII said:

I know, i was asking the guy because he seems to think you can PTL/EI off of daredevil, when you can't (unless you're tycho or have "chopper" crew)

Or PtL to Boost or Barrel Roll with Primed Thrusters. 

[digitalbusker 2,248]

1 hour ago, Jehan Menasis said:

I now see where the problem lies. It seems that the meaning of the "Then" clause, isn't strictly clear.

Some of us (me included) interpret it as an "after the action punishment" (in the daredevil's example)... As something that is different from the action, or 'added' as a consequence of the action, but not the action itself... While now is clear to me what you guys are arguing, hmm.

Of course, you have to complete all the card's text, that's out of the question... But when the clause "Then," appears... When are you considered to have performed -strictly speaking- 'an action'? And so, when exactly the trigger occurs?

Is the text after the "Then," clause an 'after effect' of the action or not?

Interesting question. I do not recall if it has been discussed before or not.

 

We had a big test case of the meaning of "Then" with Kanan crew and cards like, ironically, Daredevil. The question was whether you could trigger Kanan off of the maneuver that's nested inside Daredevil (you can) and use him to remove the stress that Daredevil generates (you can't). So we know that you have to resolve things that trigger off one part of an effect's execution before moving on to the next part of the effect.

The next thing: when are you considered to have performed-strictly speaking-'an action'?

Well, what do we mean by "an action"? The rules reference lays out the following things as actions:

• the actions that correspond to the action icons in your action bar
• a free action granted by some effect
• card actions, specifically: "As an action, a ship may resolve an ability beginning with the “Action:” header on one of its Upgrade or Damage cards."

Note that last doesn't say anything about distinguishing between the parts of the ability where you do things you want to do (execute a maneuver) and the parts where you do things you might not want to do (take damage, receive a stress).

Also note that in the Rules Reference section defining "Maneuver", the word "action" does not appear. In fact, the Maneuver section specifically says that if a ship is instructed to execute a maneuver, it only goes that that one part of the Activation phase (which does not include Perform Action).

There is therefore no reason to assume that "after performing an action" triggered events can happen anytime during Daredevil's execution except when you have fully resolved the ability under its Action header.

So, how do we know that the Action header on Daredevil refers to the entire rest of the text, and not just the first sentence?

• Why wouldn't it?
• If the Action header described only the Execute a Maneuver part of Daredevil, there would be no reason to do the other things. I went to perform my Daredevil action, and it was just the first sentence about doing a cool turn, so no need to even read the rest.
• The Damage Deck cards that have both a passive/triggered effect and an Action: header show you what they'd do if they wanted part of Daredevil to be the action and part to be a passive/triggered effect. The passive/triggered part comes first, then the Action header, and everything after the Action header is part of the action.
• Consider also Snap Shot, which has a triggered effect at the top, then an Attack: header, and everything after the Attack header is part of the attack.

For Daredevil to allow an "after performing an action" effect to nest inside its execution, it would have to be worded differently. Here are some examples of Daredevil wordings that would allow PtL or EI:

• Daredevil
  After you perform this card's action, take a stress and maybe some damage.
  Action: Execute a white 1 turn maneuver.
• Daredevil
  Action: Perform a free boost action, but use the 1 turn template. Then take a stress and maybe some damage.
  (Note that this version would be very similar to the revised text of Expert Handling.)
• Daredevil
  Action: Execute a white 1 turn maneuver. This counts as a free action, for reasons. Then take a stress and maybe some damage.

There would be subtle differences between the way these Legends Daredevils would work and the way our canon Daredevil works*, but they all can have PtL nested inside them such that you can take the PtL action before receiving the Daredevil stress.

*: The first one would work with Kanan (crew). The second one wouldn't allow you to bump, overlap an obstacle, or flee the battlefield.

Edited February 15, 2017 by digitalbusker
actions are performed, not executed; spilleng; added a word that was

[Stoneface 3,750]

Has anyone nailed down EXACTLY when "Then" happens? As in "THEN receive stress" from such things as DareDevil and Inertial Dampenets?

[Grendelator 40]

 

15 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Has anyone nailed down EXACTLY when "Then" happens? As in "THEN receive stress" from such things as DareDevil and Inertial Dampenets?

Exactly.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

Has anyone nailed down EXACTLY when "Then" happens? As in "THEN receive stress" from such things as DareDevil and Inertial Dampenets?

They happen at different times, because one is part of an action, and the other isn't.

 

Fixating on the 'then' doesn't help when it's being used in different contexts.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

If the card says:

1. Do a thing.
2. Then do another thing.

The "then" in 2 happens after you have done the thing in 1 and after you have resolved all triggered effects that triggered while you were doing the thing in 1. Including anything triggered by something that triggered off the thing in 1, etc.