Using DareDevil AND push the limit

[MustelaMatt 0]

Hey Folks,

I was looking at running Jake Farrell with the A-wing test pilot title, allowing him to take Push the limit AND DareDevil. Is it possible to use push the limit to use DareDevil's action? If possible I would presume this would give him two stress tokens (since the manoeuvre is treated as white in the FAQ) but since daredevil isn't on his action bar, maybe push the limit cant be used to activate it?

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by MustelaMatt

[jmswood 2,706]

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Read the cards again. Push the Limit requires the free action to be from your Action Bar. You cannot Push the Limit to use an "Action" header upgrade. If Jake uses Daredevil first, he will be stressed before Push the Limit can trigger. The only A-wing pilot capable of using these cards together is Tycho. If Tycho uses them together, he must use Daredevil first, unless you equip Experimental Interface. 

[StevenO 2,996]

The combo can be done but Daredevil would need to be used first and that would be the Action that is used to trigger PtL.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 minute ago, StevenO said:

The combo can be done but Daredevil would need to be used first and that would be the Action that is used to trigger PtL.

Wrong.

Unless you're Tycho, you can't PTL off Daredevil, because Daredevil gives you the stress as part of its action, so once you've completed Daredevil, you're stressed and can't do actions any more.

[sharrrp 444]

39 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Wrong.

Unless you're Tycho, you can't PTL off Daredevil, because Daredevil gives you the stress as part of its action, so once you've completed Daredevil, you're stressed and can't do actions any more.

Actually I'm pretty sure you CAN use both.  The FAQ specifies that PTL and Experimental Interface can be used in the same turn by anyone with the result being 2 Stress. The reason being that the "Free Action" and "Receive Stress" parts of the cards are separate sentences separated by a period and, importantly, the word "Then". This means that receiving the stress is not part of the action it is something that you must resolve after the action is completed.

The sequence being:

Do an action.

Trigger PTL for free action

Trigger EI off PTL's action interrupting the flow of the card.

Receive a stress from EI completing it's resolution.

Return to PTL and receive a second stress also completing its resolution.

Again, the PTL/EI thing is spelled out in the FAQ, so that definitely works. The updated phrasing on Daredevil is identical. "Do white 1 turn. Then receive a stress." So it seems clear you can in fact Daredevil and then PTL and then receive 2 stress.  The one important catch being that you must Daredevil first and PTL second as PTL specifies that the action must be on your bar so DD could not be your second action.

 

Incidentally, on a different card this same "Then" rule applies to Bossk crew. His card says "After you perform an attack that does not hit, if you are not stressed, you must receive 1 stress token. Then assign 1 focus token to your ship and acquire a target lock on the defender."  A common mistake is assuming that if you are stressed you can't trigger Bossk for the tokens. This is incorrect. If you are already stressed you do not have to assign an additional stress but you still get the tokens. This is because the part after "Then" is a separate distinct resolution independent from what precedes it.  This can be contrasted with the phrasing on Rage for instance "Assign 1 focus token to your ship and receive 2 stress tokens" all happens at the same time.

Edited February 14, 2017 by sharrrp

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No, you can't.  Taking the stress is part of the action 'Daredevil', which you have to see all the way through before you can resolve PTL.

The sequence goes

Perform Action:

• Daredevil: perform a white 1 turn, roll for damage if applicable, gain stress.

After you perform an action: trigger PTL.

Attempt to perform an action, fail because stressed.

It's not the same as PTL/EI, because the stress happens as part of the action, not after it.

It's also not remotely analogous to Bossk crew.  The better analogy is Rage.

[sharrrp 444]

Invader I really think you are incorrect. Read my previous post all the way. I actually edited it right before you replied mentioning Rage as a contrast. Here is the exact text on all the cards:

Push the Limit: Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token.

Experimental Interface: Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action from an equipped Upgrade card with the "ACTION:" header. Then receive 1 stress token.

Daredevil (post errata): ACTION: Execute a white (1 turn left or right) maneuver. Then receive 1 stress token. Then, if you do not have the Boost action icon, roll 2 attack dice. Suffer any damage and critical damage rolled.

Rage: ACTION: Assign 1 focus token to your ship and receive 2 stress tokens. Until the end of the round, when attacking, you may reroll up to 3 attack dice.

The phrasing on PTL, EI, and Daredevil is identical. Rage is distinctly different.  The stress is NOT received as part of the Action from DD. It is received at a separate step after the action in complete. There is a window between the Action and receiving the stress where another effect, such as PTL or EI, can interrupt if applicable.

[jmswood 2,706]

31 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Actually I'm pretty sure you CAN use both.  The FAQ specifies that PTL and Experimental Interface can be used in the same turn by anyone with the result being 2 Stress. The reason being that the "Free Action" and "Receive Stress" parts of the cards are separate sentences separated by a period and, importantly, the word "Then". This means that receiving the stress is not part of the action it is something that you must resolve after the action is completed.

The sequence being:

Do an action.

Trigger PTL for free action

Trigger EI off PTL's action interrupting the flow of the card.

Receive a stress from EI completing it's resolution.

Return to PTL and receive a second stress also completing its resolution.

The part about combining Push the Limit and Experimental Interface is correct. However, it raises a more practical concern. Applying this rules interpretation to the original post: 2 stress tokens is a great way to get Jake Farrell killed, and it only costs 6 points. Bringing Daredevil back into the equation:

31 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

The updated phrasing on Daredevil is identical. "Do white 1 turn. Then receive a stress." So it seems clear you can in fact Daredevil and then PTL and then receive 2 stress.

Errata or not: all of the card text on Daredevil is contained within the scope of the "Action" header. Receiving 1 stress token is part of the action. The action is not complete until the stress is received, therefore you cannot Push the Limit after Daredevil, with excpetions for abilities like Tycho or Primed Thrusters.

That being said, using the rules for interrupting card abilities is still possible with Daredevil. Daredevil contains a maneuver within the action. If you have something that triggers after executing a maneuver, you can typically trigger that ability before resolving Daredevil's "then receive 1 stress token."

31 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Incidentally, on a different card this same "Then" rule applies to Bossk crew. His card says "After you perform an attack that does not hit, if you are not stressed, you must receive 1 stress token. Then assign 1 focus token to your ship and acquire a target lock on the defender."  A common mistake is assuming that if you are stressed you can't trigger Bossk for the tokens. This is incorrect. If you are already stressed you do not have to assign an additional stress but you still get the tokens. This is because the part after "Then" is a separate distinct resolution independent from what precedes it.

This is way off topic, and a totally different application of how "then" affects card abilities. The Bossk application deals with dependent clauses. The other cards we're talking about deal with triggering opportunities. Bossk is only relevant to this conversation if you have something that triggers off receiving stress, in which case you could interrupt Bossk to resolve that before "Then assign 1 Focus token and acquire a target lock on the defender."

Edited February 14, 2017 by jmswood
spelling

[digitalbusker 2,248]

@sharrrp, the reason you can PTL off of EI and vice versa is that the thing that triggers both of them, "take an action", is inside their sequences, so it comes before the stress.

Both PTL and EI are of the form:

triggering condition: after you perform an action

step 1: perform a free action

step 2: receive a stress

You can trigger either EI or PtL off the Step 1 of the other, allowing you to nest the entire activation of the second one in between Steps 1 and 2 of the first.

Daredevil is different. It is of the form:

triggering condition: n/a, action header card

step 1: execute a white 1 turn

step 2: receive a stress

PtL and EI cannot nest their activations inside this, because they don't trigger off anything inside Daredevil. They only trigger off performing an action, and you haven't performed Daredevil's action until you've done all the things it tells you to do.

Edited February 14, 2017 by digitalbusker
add commas

[jmswood 2,706]

8 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

The phrasing on PTL, EI, and Daredevil is identical. Rage is distinctly different.  The stress is NOT received as part of the Action from DD. It is received at a separate step after the action in complete. There is a window between the Action and receiving the stress where another effect, such as PTL or EI, can interrupt if applicable.

The wording is similar on these cards, except for the presence of the "Action" header. Everything in the text following that header is inherrently part of the action. There is no rule to support the idea of Daredevil's action being complete before doing everything the card says to do. 

[sharrrp 444]

Hmmmm, I guess I can kind of see that busker. It still seems a bit wonky to me but oh well, I wasn't planning on ever doing that anyway haha

Incidentally to the OP I would agree that double stressing Jake voluntarily is probably a pretty bad idea unless you have some way to clear it in one turn. I would recommend PTL and Veteran Instincts as his 2 EPTs.

[jmswood 2,706]

3 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Incidentally to the OP I would agree that double stressing Jake voluntarily is probably a pretty bad idea unless you have some way to clear it in one turn. I would recommend PTL and Veteran Instincts as his 2 EPTs.

Jake without VI/PtL is blaspheme.  

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Its all timing.

PTL/EI share a trigger "Action" so they can be chained because they technically go off at the same exact time, though this game has you handle them one at a time anyway. As long as they got the trigger off, regardless of when in the order of things they actually GET to go off and do their thing they can do it. Nothing in this game that happens simo negates another without a "Cannot" clause at the end.
Daredevil's stress isnt an after effect, its part of the action so before you get the trigger "After performing an action" you are stressed from said action already. If the stress had a specific time it was assigned such as at the end of the phase that'd be different, but it doesnt so it has to be assigned before you have finished performing an action to trigger PTL/EI off of.

Dont care if Astromech users could make it a green via R2 i seriously wish it remained a red maneuver to stop this confusion.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

Its all timing.

PTL/EI share a trigger "Action" so they can be chained because they technically go off at the same exact time, though this game has you handle them one at a time anyway. As long as they got the trigger off, regardless of when in the order of things they actually GET to go off and do their thing they can do it. Nothing in this game that happens simo negates another without a "Cannot" clause at the end.
Daredevil's stress isnt an after effect, its part of the action so before you get the trigger "After performing an action" you are stressed from said action already. If the stress had a specific time it was assigned such as at the end of the phase that'd be different, but it doesnt so it has to be assigned before you have finished performing an action to trigger PTL/EI off of.

Dont care if Astromech users could make it a green via R2 i seriously wish it remained a red maneuver to stop this confusion.

Well then it'd be impossible for tycho to use it

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

26 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Well then it'd be impossible for tycho to use it

Oh no.  Rage/PTL/EI is his best loadout anyway.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Oh no.  Rage/PTL/EI is his best loadout anyway.

Until you need to get turned around quickly

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

3 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Until you need to get turned around quickly

Never hurt Soontir.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Never hurt Soontir.

Soontir isn't buried under 50 stress tokens

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

No, he's buried under one, which has exactly the same impact on his ability to turn around quickly.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

No, he's buried under one, which has exactly the same impact on his ability to turn around quickly.

He doesn't always need to end a turn stressed though, whereas late-game, tycho has no choice

[MustelaMatt 0]

16 hours ago, sharrrp said:

Hmmmm, I guess I can kind of see that busker. It still seems a bit wonky to me but oh well, I wasn't planning on ever doing that anyway haha

Incidentally to the OP I would agree that double stressing Jake voluntarily is probably a pretty bad idea unless you have some way to clear it in one turn. I would recommend PTL and Veteran Instincts as his 2 EPTs.

The original idea was to run it along side Cassian Andor with inspiring recruit, allowing me to clear stress very efficiently. 
 

I agree that due to PTL referring to actions in the action bar, it wouldnt do what I'd need it to do.

[Vitalis 1,012]

16 hours ago, DeathstarII said:

He doesn't always need to end a turn stressed though, whereas late-game, tycho has no choice

If he does not he is usually dead. And if he can do it safely he is probably away enought to turn without K-turn.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

The combo Daredevil first, then Push the limit definitely CAN be done.

Read relevant sections in the FAQ, especially "Push the limit" and "Experimental interface".

This phenomenon is colloquially named "nested actions". Basically, a nested action 'inserts' into the resolution of other ability, and the consequences of both the 'mother' and the 'nested' action apply after resolving both effects. 

[Ravncat 1,989]

yeah - you can resolve the cards as long as they trigger before you have stress.

 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

22 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

The combo Daredevil first, then Push the limit definitely CAN be done.

Read relevant sections in the FAQ, especially "Push the limit" and "Experimental interface".

This phenomenon is colloquially named "nested actions". Basically, a nested action 'inserts' into the resolution of other ability, and the consequences of both the 'mother' and the 'nested' action apply after resolving both effects. 

No it can't.

Daredevil acquires its stress AS PART of the action.  So once Daredevil has resolved and PTL could trigger, you can't use PTL because you're stressed.

This has nothing to do with nested actions, nothing can nest inside Daredevil.  There's no trigger for PTL and EI inside Daredevil - only afterwards, at which point you're stressed.  Ditto Expert Handling*, ditto Rage.  You have to do other actions before or after them*, not during them.

*there's an argument that you could PTL off the free action BR in Expert Handling though.

Or to turn this around: what are you arguing is the trigger for PTL that occurs during the resolution of Daredevil?