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Metushelah

Influence, Misdirect and maybe Unleash should ignore soak?

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So, what exactly is the ultimate goal of this discussion? There's talking about it not doing a lot of damage, but all I see is that Unleash does exactly what it does in the movies: with Ensnare, Burn, and the ability give it a low critical rating, it kind of does what Sidious does to Mace and Luke in the movies.

It's not a death ray, or a vaporizer, it's an agony beam. It's a way for dark siders to inflict cruel pain on the target and stop them from fighting long enough to kill them slowly, or to kill them in some other method.

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If you use unleash on regular base, you will not use protect on multiple target. The lightside variant without doubt is freaking awesome, forget about losing an action, you can negate so much damage, especially in a force user group and with other defensive talents. Not being able to get damage pass soak means no crits too and protect is not subject to breach nor pierce. 

Now for burn an base damage, "add 1 damage per strength update to the base damage of unleash", sounds like you increase the base damage and thus the burn damage, using 4 strength updates and spending 3 pips on activating unleash and burn makes already solid 3x17 damage with just 6 pips. Spend another pip on magnitude and you are dealing 3x3x17 damage, which is not even much if you are willing to spend a destiny point or four … as you can unleash 3 times in a single turn, buring true a lot of enemies, strain and destiny points in short order. 459 damage + 9*successes from the discipline checks.  6 Advantages needed on each check to burn all 3 targets each time. 

Now move by comparison, assuming a blank ship tech and a large back of pebbles gets you for 6 pips basically extreme range and as many shots and 5 + success hits as you can generate advantages, even generous that is usually at best 5 hits. If you have stormtroopers or other sil 1 objects in the environment that is 5*(10+x) damage where x = number of success.  With the right talent you can do this twice in a turn.

In a hangar you might be able to grab sil 3 or 4 ship, hurl those instead, you get 5x(40+x) damage, impressive, certainly as well longer range, but you starting to run dry of those objects to hurl as you smash them to smaller pieces with your violent use of force move and you are now close to the force pips spend. But at least you can do that twice a turn too with the right talent, but this requires rolling unrealistic 10 advantages twice and 5 pips as well each time and you might have a hard time to find a hangar with 10 shuttles, even more so when in a building.  ;-)

Still, dropping a shuttle or even bigger objects on the opposition certainly does a more direct approach than slowly burning them to death and once you hit sil 2 objects soak is a bigger issue for the burn from unleash than it is for move. 

For single target damage unleashed: 2 Pips for the ability, 3 strength, 1 burn =  17*3+x, 51 - 3*soak damage, taking longer because of burn, and certainly not as good as saber swarm or jury rigged autofire or even move with decent big burn, not overall impressive, but rather save if you first burn and ensnare them and watch them afterwards die, especially against glowstick opponents certainly a lot of fun. And it comes without the trouble of an opposed check to control their movement.

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There are tons of powers people don't use because other powers are simply better. Move in particular is simply too strong, it's one of the most universally useful utility powers in the game, and unless you're fighting in an empty room with cortosis walls you're going to be able to think of a Sil 2 or 3 object you can throw, making it also an incredibly strong damage power with only 3-4 pips to fully activate. 

That said, I kind of like that Protect/Unleash takes so much power to be good, because it's a way to keep those powers restricted to only the most powerful force users without making it completely impossible to dabble wit them. If you assume someone like Palpatine has a force rating of 12+ it makes sense that he'd be using Unleash but most characters just don't have the raw power to do it. 

From a game balance standpoint though, it's just very obvious that Move was written for a 2 FD character, and is out of line the second you're throwing 3 or 4 and there is essentially no chance you won't get a full activation. You end up doing 20-40 damage with the only real cost being that you have to pay some attention while the GM describes the scene, or worst case scenario flip a pip to make a declaration for an appropriate object. 

 

And yea, Protect is a heck of a low stronger than Unleash if you're using the light side version at least. One action is a low price to pay for potentially nixing all the damage your group was going to take that turn. 

Edited by Aetrion

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@SEApocalypse You are right about it adding to base damage making it somewhat strogner but realisticlly with FR 2-3 you will have about 3-4 pips to spend so it will more or less look like Willpower (4) + strength upgrades (4) + successes - Soak (2-3) times the burn quality so it's about 8 damage per turn if he doesn't extinguish himself . It's not that bad i guess. 

 

Well thx for the time and input :)

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Uhm ... you rip out 15-20m pieces of wall out of ... well the walls to throw sil 3 objects? I am somehow not that convinced about the universal usefulness of move as offensive weapon, we seem to run around in different locations. And it gets worse when compared to sniper-rifles, vehicle weapons and jury-rigged automatic rifles. 

Sure, it is great when you have stuff to throw, but in most cases when there are sil 3 or sil 4 objects to throw, you have as well vehicle weapons in that same room. And as my hotshots used to say: Everything you glowstick people can do, my laser cannon can do better … so what might be not the best location to start your epic fight against the big bad in the first place … except when you are Obi-Wan and you are having a giant kyber crystal and are willing to use it ;-) http://www.starwars.com/video/star-wars-the-clone-wars-story-reel-the-big-bang

@Metushelah With FR2 you don't have unleash at all as it literally requires FR3 to even starting using it and at this stage it is basically a decent stun weapon if you have talents to increase advantages or a tool of last resort if you have destiny points to blow. FR 7 would be a good value if you want to rely exclusively on it, which means about 1500 to 2000 or so xp... basically you are at that point a Sith Lords are similar powerful being. Suits the movies too as less powerful force users seem to rely on move, sense, foresee and enhance instead. 

BTW, you can not use reflect against the secondary burn damage. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Just now, Blackbird888 said:

So, what exactly is the ultimate goal of this discussion? There's talking about it not doing a lot of damage, but all I see is that Unleash does exactly what it does in the movies: with Ensnare, Burn, and the ability give it a low critical rating, it kind of does what Sidious does to Mace and Luke in the movies.

It's not a death ray, or a vaporizer, it's an agony beam. It's a way for dark siders to inflict cruel pain on the target and stop them from fighting long enough to kill them slowly, or to kill them in some other method.

If the goal of all the Force powers was to be exactly as they were protrayed in the movies, half of the Force powers we have wouldn't even exist:  Battle Meditation is never mentioned, no one uses Seek or Suppress...not to mention that no one would be able to lift anything with a Sil higher than 3, because Luke's X-wing is the biggest thing we see get moved on the silver screen.

The point of the Force Powers are to give players options for their characters.  Part of it is to reflect the movies, but the other part of it is to make the player go "This is awesome!" just like every other tree (Force or Specialization) in the game.

Right now, Force Lightning is not awesome.  Force Lightning is a waste of time and XP.  Bind will make your enemies suffer just as easily, and you can megacrit them or make them helpless every turn.   Move will do the megadamage if you have objects, or just base 10 damage (compared to base 6 for a REALLY top of the line Willpower).  Unleash does the crit thing, kinda sorta...AFTER you sink in a TON of XP.

Oh, and Unleash can't make anyone stop fighting.  It only immobilizes, it doesn't stagger.  If you want to make someone helpless...you have to use Bind.

See the problem now?  It doesn't do any real amount of damage, it doesn't control your enemies.  It CAN get a low crit rating...but Bind can do the exact same thing, and you don't need to sink XP into getting FR 3 to get Bind.

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Move is great as an offensive power, as long as you're prepared to chuck actual bits of scenery at your enemies, destroying your surroundings, intimidating everyone and mashing them in to a pulp. 

That sounds like a great way to earn lots of conflict to me, and to make yourself very, very noticeable. But, I suppose if all you have is a hammer...

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5 hours ago, buttersmug said:

Move is great as an offensive power, as long as you're prepared to chuck actual bits of scenery at your enemies, destroying your surroundings, intimidating everyone and mashing them in to a pulp. 

That sounds like a great way to earn lots of conflict to me, and to make yourself very, very noticeable. But, I suppose if all you have is a hammer...

Unleash earns conflict just for using it, and can only be fully utilized by Dark Side Force Users.  It also involves shooting lightning from your fingertips.  

I think it's safe to say that being noticeable or earning Conflict is not a concern for a player in  this scenario.

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1 conflict for using unleash, 120 conflict for throwing three lambda shuttle on that stormtrooper squad on patrol before it can spot you… still just one conflict for knocking out a few with unleash and freezing them to the ground and just running away  ;-)

There is a certain utility and finse in built into unleash, which you need otherwise bind or influence for. One conflict is basically nothing and taking a few conflict per session the best way to become a paragon of good.  Now frying the whole squad of 12 stormtrooper minions and taking 121 conflict is still an option and one of the quickest ways to the darkside ;-)

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49 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

1 conflict for using unleash, 120 conflict for throwing three lambda shuttle on that stormtrooper squad on patrol before it can spot you… still just one conflict for knocking out a few with unleash and freezing them to the ground and just running away  ;-)

Are you seriously suggesting that using Unleash should give less Conflict than Move?

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44 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Are you seriously suggesting that using Unleash should give less Conflict than Move?

Are you seriously suggesting to give less conflict for mass murder than for a inflicting strain to a few soldiers and ensnaring the rest to prevent pursuit?

@GroggyGolem Spending darkside pips on unleash is btw optional, likely, but optional and if you just want to do stun damage and ensnare it is actually  reasonable to just spend lightside pips. If torture would be an integrated part of the power, I would assume that the power would not just give 1 conflict when used. Now with the low base damage, ease to disarm and ensnare it certainly is a rather splendid tool for torture, it is a shame that you have to spend your successes on extra damage … but that was not what I was speaking off ;) 

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58 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Are you seriously suggesting to give less conflict for mass murder than for a inflicting strain to a few soldiers and ensnaring the rest to prevent pursuit?

So the ends justify the means?  "Well, sure I used that power of pure dark side and tapped into my hatred and rage to inflict unimaginable pain upon my enemies for daring to chase after me...

...but at least I did it for a good cause, right?"

 

You know that Stun grenades exist, right?

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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4 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

 pure dark side and tapped into my hatred and rage to inflict unimaginable pain upon my enemies  

citation needed 

And yeah, 1 conflict for tapping into a dark side power. Stun grenades exist, but were with no word mentioned as avaible in the example. Now stormtroopers with stun grenades open up whole new options for move users too. ;-)

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4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

citation needed 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning

Quote

Force lightning was a Force power utilized by the Sith.[5] The technique involved a discharge of electricity from the practitioner's fingertips,[1] resulting in electrocution and even disfigurement if the target was hit with it

Citation provided, Captain Needa.

Quote

And yeah, 1 conflict for tapping into a dark side power. Stun grenades exist, but were with no word mentioned as avaible in the example. Now stormtroopers with stun grenades open up whole new options for move users too. ;-)

This isn't a taser, this is a pretty abhorrent thing to do to a living being.  Using Move(Hurl) to knock someone unconscious with debris (which can be done in lieu of crushing them, which is why you'd take Conflict for unnecessary violence and destruction if you did)  is far more merciful than disfiguring them.  There's a reason you take Conflict even if you're powering the generator for an Orphanage with it.  And if you're using it against a person....

Now, if we're going to honestly calculate the RAW Conflict gained for using Unleash against that squad of Stormtroopers...

Torture is 10 Conflict per being, so for a squad of 10 Stormtroopers you're looking at 100 Conflict right off the bat.  Then, using the Force to do evil acts (such as torture someone) is an additional penalty of 1-5 Conflict, again times 10 so +10 to +50 Conflict.  The final tally is anywhere from 111 to 151 Conflict, depending on the GM.

Now, I think that's a bit excessive, but then again so is that ludicrous 120 Conflict you came up with, which I suspect you used the same rules to get.

Not to mention the fact that it takes a lot of XP to get Unleash, you have to pick it up knowing that you could use gentler methods to subdue people (light-side Bind is far far better suited, and even Dark-side Bind can get the job done against more people) in favor of using a very painful, highly Dark side method.

 

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Citation not except to make your point. Besides that unleash seems not to be only force lighting iirc it can use plenty of other elemental or other direct damage force attacks, you get as well into the issue that you apply a torture penalty for an electric attack, claim that it is fuelled by anger and hate, while it is perfectly valid to just use lightside pips to activate the power, both points let your final calculation look rather weak, because the base for that calculation is missing.

The xp argument does not count either as protect is a worth picking up for any most FR3 user, protect is awesome. And you get unleash for free. ;-)

Your whole argument is based on that force lightning to stun someone is torture and to back this you say force lighting is torture. You need to do better to back this claim up, else we are getting into "that's how I play it on my table" territory, which is fine, you can rule this on your table however you want.

Luke_Swarm_War.jpg 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment

Edited by SEApocalypse
Protect > Unleash

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Oh, we're using Legends?

Quote

Force lightning was a well known Force ability, most often used by practitioners of the dark side of the Force, especially the Sith. The ability was commonly referred to as Sith lightning, due to the affiliations of its typical users

Quote

Force lightning was a purely offensive, energy-based attack that channeled Force energy down the user's limbs, hurling arcing bolts of electricity from the wielder's fingertips or palms

Quote

The fact that it caused not only severe physical damage but also unbearable agony to the victim led to it being widely used as a form of torture.[2] At the Battle of Endor, Palpatine repeatedly assaulted Luke Skywalker with lightning, and Darth Malak used it upon Bastila Shan, having captured her onboard the Leviathan and having brought her to Lehon, where he converted her to the dark side.[2]

Quote

Though the short-term effects of Force lightning are obvious, the sheer power invoked by its use could have insidious long-term effects, both on those subjected to its power and those who would wield it. It could deform the person being shocked and it could also lead to them being crippled for the rest of their life It was also known to cause brain damage and blindness.  Prolonged exposure to intense electrical fields (such as a sustained current of Force lightning) caused most humanoids to experience sudden and massive calcification of their skeletal system; the abrupt drop in blood minerals provoked muscular micro-seizures all over the victim's body.[25] Intense enough doses of Force lightning will also have the victim having his or her skeletal system being seen through the body, as demonstrated with Darth Vader and Mace Windu. 

 

Regardless of whether you "except" my point, it stands: Force Lighting is hurling bolts of electricity at your foes that electrocutes and disfigures them.  Period.   It's a messy thing to use against someone, for any reason, at any time. 

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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First quote is irrelevant. Second quote stating the obvious. Third quote I already mentioned how useful the low damage would be for torture. The last quote fits unleash as well, as unleash has a crit rating and can be used to achieve this. It makes as well a good point about unleash being more than the most powerful force lighting, because as you pointed out so eloquently in this topic: The base damage of unleash sucks, which is in stark contrast to the destruction you just posted. To make it really hurt you need to pump into a lot of force and roll a lot of advantages and actually be a darksider, because as lightsider your crit rating on unleash will always be super bad and criting anything with unleash will become unlikely, not to speed to actually critical injuring someone badly. 

It interesting how you at one side complain how unleash is not this extremely powerful, deadly, agonising and crippling force power as rules written, but describe it exactly as this when someone deals a wound or two and a few points strain to a punch of stormtroopers and immobilizes them for a short while with the force. I mean, you certainly could burn a squad of stormtroopers alive with it too, enjoy their agony and see them rolling on the ground for a few rounds while denying them even the option to ease the pain, suffering and damage taken from the burn quality via ensnare. You certainly could use unleash in that way, if you are a FR 7 sith lord, but not if you are FR 3 Paragon of Good who is rather good at protect. 

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First quote shows that it's a dark side power used by bad people.

Second quote is the obvious that you keep skipping: it's an attack.  Remember what Yoda said?  Jedi never use the Force for attack.  Why?  Because it's evil.  You can rail against the  moral laws of the Star Wars universe if you want, and I certainly change things in my game all the time.  That being said, canon AND legends makes this pretty clear.

Third quote is pointing out that using the power is torture, which you try to deflect around by saying that you can use lightside pips to activate the power.  Which you can, but is irrelevant to the conversation.  You'll notice that in my example I didn't include any Conflict for using Dark Side Pips, that was entirely for using the Light.

Last quote is again, pointing out that in-universe this is not a safe power to use on people.  

The entire point of this discussion is that the narrative (i.e. what we know to exist in the universe of Star Wars) isn't aligning with the RAW, here.  Narratively, you take massive amount of conflict for inflicting crippling, agonizing pain on the enemy when you send jolts of electricity through their body, potentially leaving lasting effects.  Mechanically, all that means is that they can't move this round and they take a couple of damage.  The underwhelming ingame effect compared to how it's portrayed in-universe is exactly why we're having this discussion in the first place.

 

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3 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

I think I stepped away from this thread too long. How are you stunning all these troopers? Unleash is terrible for stun. Mediocre at best. You have to do wounds to even do stun, and the stun is probably not gonna be enough to knock anyone out.

I didn't even think about that aspect.  It takes an advantage per point of strain.  You're have to get six Advantage in an attack just to knock out a single stormtrooper.  Repeat that eight more times to finish off the squad....whoops, the minimum 1 damage you did each time killed a stormtrooper before you stunned everyone.  It's almost like this is a lethal amount of electricity you're playing with, here...

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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51 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

It's almost like this is a lethal amount of electricity you're playing with, here...

But at the same time, it's not. It's neither as powerful as lore would suggest, nor viable in less powerful scenarios. It's a wonky, weird mix of not as deadly as it should be for what it's supposed to represent but not versatile enough to represent anything else.

Edited by Dunefarble

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43 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

But at the same time, it's not. It's neither as powerful as lore would suggest, nor viable in less powerful scenarios. It's a wonky, weird mix of not as deadly as it should be for what it's supposed to represent but not versatile enough to represent anything else.

Fair enough, my point was more that you can't have Unleash be purely a stun and control weapon like Bind, it HAS to do at least a little damage for the power to go off.

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Unleash doesn't specify anywhere that it has to project lightning. It just says you are projecting your negative emotions as a form of energy, which could be pretty much anything. Sound, heat, light...  You can have some fun with it if you want to use it as an unusual/unique power.  I'm thinking if I get it on my Ithorian character I'll play it as destructive sound vibrations he shapes with his four throats, like a highly advanced form of Bellow. 

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54 minutes ago, Aetrion said:

Unleash doesn't specify anywhere that it has to project lightning. It just says you are projecting your negative emotions as a form of energy, which could be pretty much anything. Sound, heat, light...  You can have some fun with it if you want to use it as an unusual/unique power.  I'm thinking if I get it on my Ithorian character I'll play it as destructive sound vibrations he shapes with his four throats, like a highly advanced form of Bellow. 

How would you incorporate the Burn quality into that?

Edited by Benjan Meruna

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