Adding Force Dice to the die pool more limited than we thought?

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

22 hours ago, Phlushot said:

My only issue with it working that way is that for the many skills extra successes don't do anything.  If I make an Athletics test all I need is one uncancelled success.  It doesn't matter if I can add a dozen more with force pips.  

"Additional success on an Athletics check can either reduce the time required to make the check or increase the distance traveled with that check." - Chapter III - Skills

I am not aware of any skill which has not a suggestion what to do with additional successes, but it is all hidden in Chapter III - Skills, which I totally admit, I have not read in full at all, and I own that chapter 3 times as it is in each core book, but it is each time bloated beyond my ability to read it. Still, they do a good job at highlighting the "Extra success …" paragraph with that success icon, so it is easy to look up.

 

[syrath 1,316]

14 hours ago, Phlushot said:

Yea I had been chewing on that sentence and thinking the same thing.  It means you MUST spend a force pip to make the check happen, regardless of whether you needed the additional success since both the power check and the skill check are required.  Which seems perfectly acceptable as a partial check to reduce how powerful the abilities that let you add force dice to your skill checks are.

Actually, you don't need to spend a pip on this occasion as thdre is no requirement to activate the power itself. ie unlike some where it says you spend force point to enable.... for example it covers the situation that if you dont generate any pips on your check on terrify, but succeed the hard Coercion check, then terrify fails, there is no minimum pips required for the enhance type abilities. Essentially they work as you expect, they add success or advantage to the skill check, end of story. In my earlier post I generated a problem that didnt exist purely from my own misreading of it.

Leaving the only question is when can you use these enhance type abilities, as Sam's answer seems to lead it to , "Only when your skill check is your action" whereas the wording in the books appear to be "Whenever you make a skill check" 

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

From my reading of this forum and the RAW it seems to me that Sam's answer is based on not being able to do more than one Action. The Scathing Tirade Feat is an Action that uses the Character's Coercion Skill, it doesn't modify the Skill it just uses the Skill to create the dice pool. It specifically states "The character may take the Scathing Tirade action" it is no longer just a Coercion check it is a separate Action. Using Influence is also an Action and since you cannot use more than one Action per Turn you can't add the two.

[syrath 1,316]

1/ The Scathing Tirade talent specifically says tbat you have to make a "Coercion Check"

2/ The enhance type abilities and talents say that if you make a "skill x check" you add force dice to the roll.

3/ It has been stated that if an ability states that it works in a way that is counter to the rules then it supersedes that rule.

Given all these ,regardless of whether you need an action or not to use a combined check, it wouldn't be relevant becuase of 3/ .  This is why it doesn't make sense when you look at Sam's answer. 

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

27 minutes ago, syrath said:

1/ The Scathing Tirade talent specifically says tbat you have to make a "Coercion Check"

2/ The enhance type abilities and talents say that if you make a "skill x check" you add force dice to the roll.

3/ It has been stated that if an ability states that it works in a way that is counter to the rules then it supersedes that rule.

Given all these ,regardless of whether you need an action or not to use a combined check, it wouldn't be relevant becuase of 3/ .  This is why it doesn't make sense when you look at Sam's answer. 

1/ It says  "...may take the Scathing Tirade action; making an Average (**) Coercion check." The two key parts of this sentence are the "action" and the ";". If you understand grammar and how semicolons are used it becomes clear that the Scathing Tirade Action is equal to making the Coercion check. The action is no longer a "Coercion check" it is a Scathing Tirade action. Influence works for a Coercion checks but not a Scathing Tirade action so it doesn't work.

[syrath 1,316]

1 minute ago, FuriousGreg said:

1/ It says  "...may take the Scathing Tirade action; making an Average (**) Coercion check." The two key parts of this sentence are the "action" and the ";". If you understand grammar and how semicolons are used it becomes clear that the Scathing Tirade Action is equal to making the Coercion check. The action is no longer a "Coercion check" it is a Scathing Tirade action. Influence works for a Coercion checks but not a Scathing Tirade action so it doesn't work.

Yes , which is why I quoted the combined force check I mentioned back on page , you are still however" making an average coercion check".  

The wording of th inflence upgrade does not specify that you make a coercion check as an action only a coercion check, and there is absolutely no doubt you are making a coercion check.

No where in the description does it say it has to be skill check action, the only qualifier is that " When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership or Negotiation check. " In the description of these types of abilities or talents this is the sole trigger , whether it is a Scathing Tirade talent, coercion skill check etc it shouldn't matter, the wording of the talent including the semi colon itself even calls it a coercion check.

If it was worded that you prepare the pool based on an average coercion check or there is wording like this that generically applies to any talent then there are grounds to say it isnt a coercion check, as such you cannot argue it isnt a coercion skill check, just that it isnt a coercion skill check action.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

1 hour ago, syrath said:

The wording of th inflence upgrade does not specify that you make a coercion check as an action only a coercion check, and there is absolutely no doubt you are making a coercion check.

No where in the description does it say it has to be skill check action, the only qualifier is that " When making a Coercion, Charm, Deception, Leadership or Negotiation check. " In the description of these types of abilities or talents this is the sole trigger , whether it is a Scathing Tirade talent, coercion skill check etc it shouldn't matter, the wording of the talent including the semi colon itself even calls it a coercion check.

If it was worded that you prepare the pool based on an average coercion check or there is wording like this that generically applies to any talent then there are grounds to say it isnt a coercion check, as such you cannot argue it isnt a coercion skill check, just that it isnt a coercion skill check action.

Except that activation of a Force Power is always an action unless otherwise noted, which it does not in the case of Influence so it doesn't need to be spelled out in the Influence section. The Scathing Tirade Talent is an action that uses a Coercion check to build the dice pool, Influence is also an action that uses a Coercion check to build the dice pool and both of these actions replace a standard Skill check. Because using the Talent or using Influence are both actions and you cannot perform two actions in a single Turn, if you use Scathing Tirade that's your action. Basically once you've used your action to preform a Scathing Tirade you cannot by the RAW take any other action, so any Force Power that requires an action to activate is unavailable to you.

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by FuriousGreg
To clarify something.

[syrath 1,316]

Except that when a talent / ability says that it works in circumstances that contradict the rules, then it supercedes the rule . It has one prerquisite which comes down to When you make a skill check., doesnt matter that scathing tirade is your action. quick movement lets you take 3 maneuvers for example. by your argument even making the skill check as part of the scathing tirade talent isnt possible either as rolling a coercion check also requires an action (source - F&D core book page 209, Perform a Skill Check,), however scathing tirade says that you make  a skill check as part of its action. influence control correspondingly says that you make an influence power check as part of the pool for the skill check (doesnt specify the need for an action, just the check), hence both the check itself supercedes the rule about actions as does the control upgrade. 

Edit Fwiw I agree that your argument is the only way I can make sense myself out of Sam's answer but the repercussions of it 1/ dont make sense even with the wording under the description under combined power chcks and 2/ weaken the ability of quite a few talents and abilities to the point it might not be worth bothering with them. While I like the idea that this prevents an FS character from being able to Tirade any better than a non FS character , it hasnt exactly been set out that way. Im not actually a fan of these enhance type abilities because if you can get a few of them it exponentially enlarges the effect of getting each FR talent to the point of silliness, however not so much so that it is any more overpowered than some of the force abilities already are -ie someone who has thr basic power in influence and FR 6 can cause more strain damage without tirade.

Edited February 12, 2017 by syrath

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

29 minutes ago, syrath said:

 influence control correspondingly says that you make an influence power check as part of the pool for the skill check (doesnt specify the need for an action, just the check), hence both the check itself supercedes the rule about actions as does the control upgrade. 

It doesn't need to specify that Influence is an action because activation of a Force Power is always an action unless specifically ruled otherwise. Unless you can find somewhere in the RAW that positively shows that activation of Influence isn't an action then it is one. So, since both are actions and only one action can be preformed in a Turn there is no overlap because once you activate the Talent you've used your action so you cannot activate the Force Power to cause the conflict. Same for the other way around: once you activate Influence you've used your action and cannot activate Scathing Tirade. Nothing gets superseded because you can't activate both to create the situation in the first place.

Edited February 12, 2017 by FuriousGreg

[syrath 1,316]

15 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

It doesn't need to specify that Influence is an action because activation of a Force Power is always an action unless specifically ruled otherwise. Unless you can find somewhere in the RAW that positively shows that activation of Influence isn't an action then it is one. So, since both are actions and only one action can be preformed in a Turn there is no overlap because once you activate the Talent you've used your action so you cannot activate the Force Power to cause the conflict. Same for the other way around: once you activate Influence you've used your action and cannot activate Scathing Tirade. Nothing gets superseded because you can't activate both to create the situation in the first place.

except the power is worded when you make an x check.  The wordng is critical here. Unlike other combined power checks like, for example, Terrify from the Aggesor tree, which asks you to make a combined check as a result of choosing to use the talent Terrify, the wordig of the enhance type abilities calls for the combined check as a result of a call for a skill check, there is nothing that specifies that this has to be a skill check that was specifically called for by the player, so a skill check called for by a talent, or another ability should still benefit for this.

Essentially enhance operates like a passive ability, you dont ask to do a force power to use it, nor do you need to ask for a specific skill check , it just occurs when a skill check happens. 

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

1 minute ago, syrath said:

except the power is worded when you make an x check.  The wordng is critical here. Unlike other combined power checks like, for example, Terrify from the Aggesor tree, which asks you to make a combined check as a result of choosing to use the talent Terrify, the wordig of the enhance type abilities calls for the combined check as a result of a call for a skill check, there is nothing that specifies that this has to be a skill check that was specifically called for by the player, so a skill check called for by a talent, or another ability should still benefit for this.

Essentially enhance operates like a passive ability, you dont ask to do a force power to use it, nor do you need to ask for a specific skill check , it just occurs when a skill check happens. 

Isn't there wording in the "Combined Skill Check with Force Power check" description that essentially says when using such powers and abilities your no longer "performing a skill check" but rather "activating a Force Power"?

[masterstrider 128]

While Scathing Tirade is an ACTION that asks the player to make a Coercion check, and the Influence power allows players to add Force die to any Coercion check. So, there are two competing factors to the equation. Is using the Influence Force power in conjunction with Scathing Tirade two actions? Or does Influence add to Scathing Tirade?

Well, Using any Force power is an action (RAW), and Scathing Tirade is also an Action (RAW), which by the standard rules it logically means that only one of the effects can be performed in a given round.

However, the Influence Force power clearly indicates that when you have the Control upgrade, it "enhances your arguments whenever you make the" relevant check using the stipulated skills e.g. Coercion. It even states that: "When making a [Coercion] check, the user may roll an Influence power check, as part of the pool." The power is clearly meant to be used whenever the relevant SKILL is used. Unlike the default rule for using Force powers, it is NOT an independent ACTION, similar to how Enhance works.

Using this logic, I would personally allow the player to add their Force die to the Scathing Tirade check since the Force power indicates that is the intent.

I can see merit for the case that Scathing Tirade IS the ACTION, and that Coercion just happens to be skill check you take to determine the result, in which case, Influence can only be used when a player is making a Coercion skill check as their ACTION. Based on his reply to the OP, I think this is what Sam Stewart prefers.

Failing that: using Scathing Tirade in conjunction with the Influence (Control) upgrade may end up being a GM ruled question if players cannot agree.

Edited February 13, 2017 by masterstrider

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

48 minutes ago, syrath said:

except the power is worded when you make an x check.  The wordng is critical here. Unlike other combined power checks like, for example, Terrify from the Aggesor tree, which asks you to make a combined check as a result of choosing to use the talent Terrify, the wordig of the enhance type abilities calls for the combined check as a result of a call for a skill check, there is nothing that specifies that this has to be a skill check that was specifically called for by the player, so a skill check called for by a talent, or another ability should still benefit for this.

Essentially enhance operates like a passive ability, you dont ask to do a force power to use it, nor do you need to ask for a specific skill check , it just occurs when a skill check happens. 

The wording is critical and I'm afraid it doesn't support your conclusions. As I pointed out earlier both the Scathing Tirade talent and and Influence are active actions, they require the PC to initiate the action. Influence isn't a passive power, you can't Commit a Force Die like some Sense or Enhance powers you have to Activate the power and that means using an Action. Even Committing a Force Die is initially an Action, you have to activate the ongoing effect (F&D pg. 281 "To activate and fuel...").

I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but Sam is correct.

[syrath 1,316]

57 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Isn't there wording in the "Combined Skill Check with Force Power check" description that essentially says when using such powers and abilities your no longer "performing a skill check" but rather "activating a Force Power

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

Isn't there wording in the "Combined Skill Check with Force Power check" description that essentially says when using such powers and abilities your no longer "performing a skill check" but rather "activating a Force Power"?

in a round about way, but it also says this and this actually answers it once and for all "Relevant powers and talents specifically state when a combined check should take place" the enhance abilities do tell you when the check takes place "When you make a skill check"

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

The problem though is that a "skill check" is a specific type of action you can make, and different to both using a Talent and using a Force Power. So that particular phrase could be referring to every single time you use the skill or it could be referring to the specific type of Action (as outlined in the combat chapter) where a character just rolls a skill check without any talents attached.

[masterstrider 128]

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

It doesn't need to specify that Influence is an action because activation of a Force Power is always an action unless specifically ruled otherwise. Unless you can find somewhere in the RAW that positively shows that activation of Influence isn't an action then it is one. So, since both are actions and only one action can be preformed in a Turn there is no overlap because once you activate the Talent you've used your action so you cannot activate the Force Power...

The Enhance Force power allows for combined checks when a player uses specific SKILLS (Athletics for the base power). Technically, using the SKILL is the ACTION. However, the Force power clearly states you can combine the SKILL with the Enhance Force power, which by your logic above, would indicate you're using TWO actions. Using Athletic would be the Action taken by the player, and using the Force power would be a second Action. Clearly the power allows for this "break" in the standard rules - an exception. Now, I'm not arguing against you, just pointing out some inconsistencies in your logic. 

IMHO: The ruling from FFG needs to indicate whether a SKILL check used as part of an ACTIVE Talent can be modified by other powers or abilities, or does the activation of the Talent only allow the features/effects as indicated in the power to the exclusion of all other influences. That is where the REAL issue in the interpretation is coming from. Sam has obviously ruled that the two "probably" should not be combined, and left the logic open to the players to work out.

Edited February 13, 2017 by masterstrider

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

So delving into this topic deeper...

Per the Core rule book there are five major types of actions:

1.) Exchange Action for Maneuver

2.) Activate Ability or Talent

3.) Activate a Force Power

4.) Perform a Skill Check

5.) Perform a Combat Check

So it is clear from this list the 'Activate Ability or Talent' is a different action than either using a Force Power or Performing a Skill check. Further, under the description for 'Spend an Action to Activate an Ability" it states:

"Certain abilities and talents can require an action to activate. When a character spends an action to activate an ability or talent (even if spending the action does require a check or any other activity on the part character's part), he has used his action for his turn. He many not a take a second action, unless he specifically has an ability that would grant him a second action."

So I think this is where we get the ruling that you cannot add your Force Pool to skill checks that are made as a result of using an overlying Talent or Ability. In essence those skill checks are not the equivalent of "Perform a Skill Check". 

The next question is, how do you activate Powers like Enhance or Influence that give your Force Pool to skill checks, as they both require actions? I submit that what happens in these situation is you are actually making a 'Activate Force Power' action rather than a 'Perform Skill Check' action. Also note that a 'Perform a Combat Check' action is considered a variation of 'Perform a Skill Check Action', so any force powers that would give your Force pool on combat skills would apply using the same logic.

All this said, the wording here still leaves doubts in my mind.

 

 

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

@Magnus Arcanus I think you have hit the nail on the head. This will also highlight why passive talents that add your Force Dice to the skill check are far better than they appear at face value 

[masterstrider 128]

33 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

The next question is, how do you activate Powers like Enhance or Influence that give your Force Pool to skill checks, as they both require actions? I submit that what happens in these situation is you are actually making a 'Activate Force Power' action rather than a 'Perform Skill Check' action.

I like your logic here - that essentially using the "effects" of Influence is akin to using a Force power. It's a good example, however the power clearly states you can use Force die in the pool when you're required to make a Coercion skill check.

Perhaps the ruling should be:

"A player can use the Force ability as part of a basic Skill check, in which case it becomes a Force power Action. However, you cannot use the Force in combination with another Active Talent, since the action is taken to activate the Talent." 

[Jareth Valar 481]

Then you just need to have one of the many talents to perform an action as a maneuver and see if that also affects the discussion If so,  there is a whole other flavor of worm to add to the can.

[masterstrider 128]

Addendum:

There is a similar scenario with the Terrify Talent and how it interacts with the Intimidating Talent. Rules as written, you can use your ranks in Intimidating to downgrade the difficult of your Coercion skill check, which if used for Terrify & Terrify (Improved), would make a hard check relatively easy. However, this would mean that you are activating two ACTIVE Talents in one turn, which would technically mean that you are using two Actions.

This becomes a bit silly when you're using Full Throttle (hard Piloting skill check) and you CANNOT combine Enhance (Piloting) to add the Force die to the skill check since that would mean you're using two actions. Thematically, it's very **** cool, but mechanically, it's not allowed. (Perhaps the GM could let you do it for a Destiny Point if it was thematically appropriate?)

Edited February 13, 2017 by masterstrider

[Magnus Arcanus 559]

15 minutes ago, masterstrider said:

Addendum:

There is a similar scenario with the Terrify Talent and how it interacts with the Intimidating Talent. Rules as written, you can use your ranks in Intimidating to downgrade the difficult of your Coercion skill check, which if used for Terrify & Terrify (Improved), would make a hard check relatively easy. However, this would mean that you are activating two ACTIVE Talents in one turn, which would technically mean that you are using two Actions.

There is an old thread (I might be able to find it) that asks whether Intimidating or Nobody's Fool should apply to Scathing Tirade checks. The answer given by the Devs is no, these talents do not apply because Scathing Tirade does not target a specific creature when initially rolled. Given that Terrify uses similar language (e.g. roll Coercion, then determine target(s)), I would assume the same ruling would apply; that is, talents such as Intimidating or Nobody's Fool do not work on Terrify.

[FuriousGreg 1,667]

2 hours ago, masterstrider said:

The Enhance Force power allows for combined checks when a player uses specific SKILLS (Athletics for the base power). Technically, using the SKILL is the ACTION. However, the Force power clearly states you can combine the SKILL with the Enhance Force power, which by your logic above, would indicate you're using TWO actions. Using Athletic would be the Action taken by the player, and using the Force power would be a second Action. Clearly the power allows for this "break" in the standard rules - an exception. Now, I'm not arguing against you, just pointing out some inconsistencies in your logic. 

Enhance:
F&D pg 288 "When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance power check as part of the pool. The user may spend (D/L) to gain Success or Advantage (his choice) on the check. (Remember this counts as a normal Force power check in every way - it is simply combined with the overall skill check.)"

What is a Force Power Check?
F&D pg 280 the last paragraph under the heading Force Power Checks: "Once a Force power check has been resolved this concludes the character's action."

And finally the RAW applying to all Force Powers:
F&D pg 282 under Force Powers, emphasis FFG: "In any case, unless the power's description specifically states otherwise, using the power requires one action in structured time."

Argue all you want but using a Force Power, even in conjunction with a Skill, is always an action unless it specifically says otherwise. Show me where it specifically, not implied or intended but specifically says that the Enhance power or the Influence power does not require an action and I'll concede, but I'm almost positive that you can't. 

This thread was started by asking the question as to whether or not you could use Scathing Tirade and Influence in the same Turn and my answer, supported by Sam, is no because both are separate actions.

Edited February 13, 2017 by FuriousGreg

[masterstrider 128]

7 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

There is an old thread (I might be able to find it) that asks whether Intimidating or Nobody's Fool should apply to Scathing Tirade checks. The answer given by the Devs is no, these talents do not apply because Scathing Tirade does not target a specific creature when initially rolled. Given that Terrify uses similar language (e.g. roll Coercion, then determine target(s)), I would assume the same ruling would apply; that is, talents such as Intimidating or Nobody's Fool do not work on Terrify.

No disagreement here. It's pretty clear that Scathing Tirade is an Action on it's own and using those other abilities would required an Action of their own given they are Active Talents. I'm not surprised they said that Nobody's Fool couldn't be used - it only affects incoming checks not outgoing.

[masterstrider 128]

9 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

Enhance:
F&D pg 288 "When making an Athletics check, the user may roll an Enhance power check as part of the pool. The user may spend (D/L) to gain Success or Advantage (his choice) on the check. (Remember this counts as a normal Force power check in every way - it is simply combined with the overall skill check.)"

What is a Force Power Check?
F&D pg 280 the last paragraph under the heading Force Power Checks: "Once a Force power check has been resolved this concludes the character's action."

And finally the RAW applying to all Force Powers:
F&D pg 282 under Force Powers, emphasis FFG: "In any case, unless the power's description specifically states otherwise, using the power requires one action in structured time."

Argue all you want but using a Force Power, even in conjunction with a Skill, is always an action unless it specifically says otherwise. Show me where it specifically, not implied or intended but specifically says that the Enhance power or the Influence power does not require an action and I'll concede, but I'm almost positive that you can't.

The key point relates to something Magnus wrote earlier, which was akin to: What is the Action? In the case of Scathing Tirade, the action is activating the Talent, hence why you cannot use Force Influence (Control) in combination, since it requires it's own action to activate. The wording is a little funky in the power, since Influence says you may add Force die to specific checks, hence the confusion. But I agree that using the effects of Influence would be considered the Action, and since you can't use two actions in a turn, you would have to pick one or the other.

In the case of Enhance, the Force power becomes the skill check, hence why you can combine the use of the Force die. The same goes with Unleash/Protect. Using the power becomes the action, which encompasses the combined effects.

Very interesting discussion though...it made my work day pass much quicker