Team covenant spoilers

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Another example of why before triggers shouldn't be a thing. Would it really have been so hard to have the queue resolve from the top down?

[CBMarkham 2,441]

16 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Can that build be forever known as "Emo Team-O"?

Yes. Yes, it can.

[netherspirit1982 220]

15 hours ago, Mep said:

you are playing a noble on a character already defeated, so it would have no effect.

This. Just like an exhausted character can't be exhausted again, I think once a character is defeated it can't be defeated again.

[Mep 2,291]

9 hours ago, NetCop said:

Queue will look like this:

1. Event: Noble Scariface on Ben

2. Ben's Before die effect triggers - you choose and play Noble Sacrifice and put that event at the end of queue.

3. Ben dies

4. Second Noble Sacrifice do nothing on Ben because he's not in play anymore

Actually that Before effect changes the queue a bit. Ben's triggered ability happens before Noble kicks in. So it would look like this.

Action: Event card- Noble Sacrifice on Ben

Queue:

1. Ben's ability - Play a card from the discard pile. The second copy of noble sacrifice has to be in the discard pile already for this to work - Noble Sacrifice #2 - goes to queue.

2. Event card's Noble #1 gets resolved, goes to discard pile now (so this copy cannot be played by Ben's Before ability because it doesn't resolve in time to go to the discard pile.) Character gets exhausted. Ben is defeated.

3. Noble #2 goes off, nothing to target, nothing happens.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

I don't think it's about targeting so much as paying a cost, which is what 'to' usually signifies in FFG games. Seems to have slipped the designers' minds here for some strange reason, but I think an email might help nudge them in the right direction, hopefully before SoR hits store shelves.

"Defeat a character: exhaust a character." Ben's long since gone to the discard pile before any triggers start resolving, so there's nothing left of him to pay a cost the second time around. Bear in mind that I'm not inferring that such rules exist as the game is currently written, only that they could (and probably should) not too far in the future. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Mep 2,291]

Doubtful since it is very clear what happens here.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Is it? Consensus usually follows clarity, and I've yet to see that in any thread. The rules seem about as clear as mud. 

What does seem clear to me is that Noble Sacrifice doesn't use the framework term 'choose,' so there is no targeting going on.

Edited February 9, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Keigi 24]

10 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Is it? Consensus usually follows clarity, and I've yet to see that in any thread. The rules seem about as clear as mud. 

What does seem clear to me is that Noble Sacrifice doesn't use the framework term 'choose,' so there is no targeting going on.

This situation is handled in the rules, but I agree that the rules lack clarity. 

The breaking of steps between playing a card then it's  resolution are the cause of confusion here. 

Think anytime we have to outline the steps that's a sign of lack of clarity.

[Keigi 24]

Elite aperitence Vader is going to be a thing. The damage is just nasty fast. 

The costs are not a big deal either. One resource/damage is nothing for three damage. He will fit in a very quick aggro deck. He pairs great with elite Kylo.  

[tunewalker 182]

As far as Obi-wan's ability and Noble Sacrifices interaction from what I saw of the team covenant video the creator actually made that example as something you COULD do. From my understanding you complete the card text before he is TECHNICALLY dead, you just cant stop his death because obviously that's what triggered it to begin with. Could be wrong though.

[Mep 2,291]

Yes, so if Obi got lethal damage, Noble Sacrifice can be played Before if it is in the discard pile, but you can't chain it with a second.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

5 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yes, so if Obi got lethal damage, Noble Sacrifice can be played Before if it is in the discard pile, but you can't chain it with a second.

You're saying that being killed from taking damage isn't the same as being killed from Noble Sacrifice? I'm not sure I see the distinction. If you can be killed by damage and then use Noble Sacrifice, it should stand to reason that you can be killed by Noble Sacrifice and then use Noble Sacrifice.

[Mep 2,291]

Isn't the key would Before fun for those that understand it.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

You didn't answer my question, and it wasn't rhetorical. What difference exists between dealing damage and Noble Sacrifice that makes one interaction viable and the other not? I figured that since you were having fun with your understandin' and learnin' and all you might condescend to relieve me of my ignorance.

Edited February 10, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

While we await elucidation, let's re-consider the following:

On 2/9/2017 at 11:32 AM, Mep said:

Actually that Before effect changes the queue a bit. Ben's triggered ability happens before Noble kicks in. So it would look like this.

Action: Event card- Noble Sacrifice on Ben

Queue:

1. Ben's ability - Play a card from the discard pile. The second copy of noble sacrifice has to be in the discard pile already for this to work - Noble Sacrifice #2 - goes to queue.

2. Event card's Noble #1 gets resolved, goes to discard pile now (so this copy cannot be played by Ben's Before ability because it doesn't resolve in time to go to the discard pile.) Character gets exhausted. Ben is defeated.

3. Noble #2 goes off, nothing to target, nothing happens.

Just before the 10 minute mark the TC guys mention equipping OWTF onto Ben himself, which I think is where a lot of our minds went when we first read the card. I'm assuming they're a little more in tune with the designers' intent than we are, and it certainly seems thematic. According to your interpretation right here, Mep, that's not possible; Ben won't be around by the time OWTF resolves, so you can't equip it on him. That means either they know something we don't (most likely), or they're flat out wrong about the timing and you got it right. Which is it?

Edited February 11, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Mep 2,291]

Actually, the second Noble would kill Old Ben since it happens before. First Noble would trigger him to die, so the Before kicks in, a second Noble needs to be in the discard and it is the 2nd that kills him.

Either way, it is silly to do this as only one of them works.

Now we can get really stupid and try to decide if this counts as a pass action since noble was played without a valid target.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Mep

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

The first Noble Sacrifice would have to resolve before Ben's ability triggers. It can't be in the queue waiting to resolve, otherwise you can't defeat Ben to trigger his before ability in the first place. The only thing pending in the queue when his ability resolves is him waiting to go to the discard pile. There's no current way to split the text of Noble Sacrifice mid-sentence, not with the rules we currently have. 

I do hope Lukas opts to chime in on this one. It would be disappointing not to be able to play OWTF on Ben. Now, let's all be thankful that we don't live in a world where Second Chance is blue. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Mep 2,291]

If you ever bother to read the rules, pay attention to the Before keyword, in the triggered ability section. The rules are very clear on this.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

You've mentioned that a couple times now, but it completely fails to explain this scenario. Telling me that it's clear doesn't magically make it so. I'm getting the distinct impression that you actually don't know what you're talking about, and you're attempting to save face by giving me yet another non-response.

Edited February 11, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Mep 2,291]

Here is a wonderful trick. When you download the rules pdf, you can hit ctrl F. It allows you to find words in the document, like Before, or Triggered Abilities. The rules cover this scenario, if you actually read the rules.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Maybe you should bother to actually read what I'm writing. I've disproved you twice in this thread, hence your apparent flip-flop. Maybe you should spare yourself further embarrassment and either pay attention or just go away. The rules don't support you, and you're wrong. 

[Mep 2,291]

Yep, you're right, I'm wrong, go do your victory lap rather than reading the rules so you understand the game.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

You've been doing your victory lap for the better part of a page now. Ironic that you only seem to notice when other people fail to post something substantive. Have a nice day, kiddo.

[amrothe 155]

I wonder if they realize that making ben prevents blue from ever getting a card or event with a replacement effect for defeated that keeps you alive

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Well, if they're going to make a functional reprint of Second Chance it probably won't be for a while. There's plenty of design space to explore in the interim.