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Dereksson

Maarek Stele Ability and I'll show you the dark side condition card interaction

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Not exactly. It triggers on his attack dealing a faceup damage card.

My point is that, if the condition cancels the critical damage by replacing it, it is not the attack dealing the faceup card anymore.

 

Let me explain it this way: a condition card is assigned to your ship. It is like any upgrade card (thats why the part where says 'you' refers to the assigned ship). You cant attack yourself. A damage dealt to you by a card you have assigned can never be part of an attack.

 

Its like Coutdown. The damage he (she?) receives is from his ability, not from the attack, so the attack misses and triggers Gunner.

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7 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

It says right on the condition card: "instead".  That's a replacement. 

it replaces what the critical damage does, it does not cancel the crit read what I wrote a little more carefully. It does not replace the critical damage it replaces what the critical damage normally does.  It changes how to resolve a crit damage but does not cancel it.

 

The condition card literally says "when you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card", so yes, it does replace the suffering of the critical damage.

which again, is not replacing the attack, it does not cancel the crit.

Edited by Oberron

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29 minutes ago, Oberron said:

it replaces what the critical damage does, it does not cancel the crit read what I wrote a little more carefully. It does not replace the critical damage it replaces what the critical damage normally does.  It changes how to resolve a crit damage but does not cancel it.

 

which again, is not replacing the attack, it does not cancel the crit.

Yea. No, I'm not going to play this game with you that involves you ignoring the part of my post where I use almost the identical wording to what you say so that you can be hyper pedantic when I switch from technical to conversational. 

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11 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Yea. No, I'm not going to play this game with you that involves you ignoring the part of my post where I use almost the identical wording to what you say so that you can be hyper pedantic when I switch from technical to conversational. 

you ignored part of my post thinking that i said it wasn't a replacement effect. I was pointing out that I did say it was a replacement effect but it does not replace the attack. Nothing pedantic about it. STDS does not replace the attack or the critical damage, it replaces the normal effect of what the critical damage does, which is still part of stele's attack.

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On 2/23/2017 at 11:27 PM, DR4CO said:

You assume FFG personnel are present at these Regionals. With very few exceptions, that is not the case, so individual TOs have had to make their own calls.

Do we have any of these calls?  I mean from a reliable source?

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For the Regional I TO'd, I ruled against them interacting, justified by the condition generating the card, not Maarek's attack. But that's not necessarily the correct read of the interaction, and I did it more because I decided that it was the lesser of the two evils as far as the event was concerned, rather than truly believing it was the correct call.

Edited by DR4CO

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42 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

For the Regional I TO'd, I ruled against them interacting, justified by the condition generating the card, not Maarek's attack. But that's not necessarily the correct read of the interaction, and I did it more because I decided that it was the lesser of the two evils as far as the event was concerned, rather than truly believing it was the correct call.

I think that sits a bit better with how it probably should go down.

While I don't care if Kylo doesn't interact with Maarek at all or even if Maarek takes Kylo's card and two more then deals one of the three but causing the condition to fall off but I certainly hope it doesn't get ruled that the Condition stays intact yet let Maarek pick up three more damage cards and then choose one of those to deal with an easy chance of doing it again.

 

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it is a strong combo but isn't nearly as scary as people think because you have to dedicate a lot of resources to make it work, kylo crew means tie shuttle, lambda, upsilon, or decimator (or phantom) which means aside from decimator no palp, maarek x7 with no palp isn't as big a pain as he could be and that means he is fishing for crits too. If you go the decimator route with kylo and palp on it you have a target worth 52+ points that melts to heavy fire or focus fire down maarek. playing it in practice it is what imperials do, hits hard and fast and zooms out of there for another pass.

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Amount of required setup aside, I don't think FFG would have intended to give Maarek a 52.3% chance to one-shot 2 hull ships through their shields. Of course, I'm not a mind reader so I could be wrong. But as a player and TO I wasn't comfortable with it, so I doubt a developer would be. I will eat my hat if they rule it as legal.

Edited by DR4CO

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2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Amount of required setup aside, I don't think FFG would have intended to give Maarek a 52.3% chance to one-shot 2 hull ships through their shields. Of course, I'm not a mind reader so I could be wrong. But as a player and TO I wasn't comfortable with it, so I doubt a developer would be. I will eat my hat if they rule it as legal.

im curious how you got to 52.3%?

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1 hour ago, Oberron said:

im curious how you got to 52.3%?

Presumably the maths for finding a direct hit in 3/32 (because one is on the condition) cards.

Which is a little specious because he still has to roll a crit AND HIT with it to do it, and 2-hull ships are rarely trivial to hit.

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4 hours ago, Oberron said:

it is a strong combo but isn't nearly as scary as people think because you have to dedicate a lot of resources to make it work, kylo crew means tie shuttle, lambda, upsilon, or decimator (or phantom) which means aside from decimator no palp, maarek x7 with no palp isn't as big a pain as he could be and that means he is fishing for crits too. If you go the decimator route with kylo and palp on it you have a target worth 52+ points that melts to heavy fire or focus fire down maarek. playing it in practice it is what imperials do, hits hard and fast and zooms out of there for another pass.

Deci + X7 had a lot of succes. Deci+X7 + blinded pilot on demand...i don't see it melting so fast....

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10 hours ago, Vitalis said:

Deci + X7 had a lot of succes. Deci+X7 + blinded pilot on demand...i don't see it melting so fast....

Depends on what you mean by successful I guess. What does a normal decimator x7 list look like?

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16 hours ago, Oberron said:

im curious how you got to 52.3%?

I should have specified the odds are once the attack hits. It's actually slightly higher than that, too; I forgot to account for the card removed by IWSYTDS. When Maarek draws from the deck, he has the following odds to not draw a Direct Hit:

25/32 on the first draw.
24/31 on the second draw.
23/30 on the third draw.

That gives the chance for it not happening as (25*24*23) / (32*31*30) = 46.4%, which in turn means that, once the attack lands, Maarek has a 53.6% of drawing a Direct Hit.

14 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Presumably the maths for finding a direct hit in 3/32 (because one is on the condition) cards.

Which is a little specious because he still has to roll a crit AND HIT with it to do it, and 2-hull ships are rarely trivial to hit.

He'll likely have a PS8 Decimator clearing tokens for him, and can use EPTs to further boost his chances of generating a critical or pushing it through. It's not that hard to reliably achieve.

Edited by DR4CO
Math is hard...

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2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I should have specified the odds are once the attack hits. It's actually slightly higher than that, too; I forgot to account for the card removed by IWSYTDS. When Maarek draws from the deck, he has the following odds to not draw a Direct Hit:

25/32 on the first draw.
24/31 on the second draw.
23/30 on the third draw.

That gives the chance for it not happening as (25*24*23) / (32*31*30) = 46.4%, which in turn means that, once the attack lands, Maarek has a 53.6% of drawing a Direct Hit.

He'll likely have a PS8 Decimator clearing tokens for him, and can use EPTs to further boost his chances of generating a critical or pushing it through. It's not that hard to reliably achieve.

You have your math backwards for chance it not happening is 1-(25×24×23÷(32×31×30)). It's 46.4% chance of direct hit being drawn. Less than 50% but while playing it seems to be 100% when it's the last 2 hull of any ship.

 

Another thing to think about is if the PS8 Decimator rolls a crit and the defender decides to not strip tokens to cancel the crit. Then there goes the condition card. And afaik the only ept that helps get a crit is calculations, or marksman. Pushing a crit through is easier but then you are still fishing for crit's unless you want to use palp to do so

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35 minutes ago, Oberron said:

You have your math backwards for chance it not happening is 1-(25×24×23÷(32×31×30)). It's 46.4% chance of direct hit being drawn. Less than 50% but while playing it seems to be 100% when it's the last 2 hull of any ship.

 

Another thing to think about is if the PS8 Decimator rolls a crit and the defender decides to not strip tokens to cancel the crit. Then there goes the condition card. And afaik the only ept that helps get a crit is calculations, or marksman. Pushing a crit through is easier but then you are still fishing for crit's unless you want to use palp to do so

No, I don't. Your math is calculating the odds of actually getting the Direct Hit. We are calculating the odds of not drawing a Direct (ie. we live in the world where we get the 25/32, 24/31, and 23/30 results on our three draws), then take that away from 1 to leave us with the odds of successfully drawing a Direct Hit.

Thus:

(25*24*23) / (32*31*30) = 0.464
1 - 0.464 = 0.536

53.6% chance of a Direct Hit.

In any case, this is getting a little bit off topic. At this point I agree with everyone who thinks that, RAW, Maarek should trigger off IWSYTDS. But much like the TIE/x1 and TIE Prototype situation, I believe FFG will rule against it anyway.

Edited by DR4CO

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1 hour ago, Oberron said:

You have your math backwards for chance it not happening is 1-(25×24×23÷(32×31×30)). It's 46.4% chance of direct hit being drawn. Less than 50% but while playing it seems to be 100% when it's the last 2 hull of any ship

 

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

No, I don't. Your math is calculating the odds of actually getting the Direct Hit. We are calculating the odds of not drawing a Direct (ie. we live in the world where we get the 25/32, 24/31, and 23/30 results on our three draws), then take that away from 1 to leave us with the odds of successfully drawing a Direct Hit.

DR4CO is completely right with this.

After ISYTDS takes out a card there are 32 cards left in the DD and all 7 Direct Hits.  This means 25/32 are NOT Direct Hits giving you a 78% chance of NOT drawing one with one card.  If that didn't draw one now there are just 31 cards left and 24 of them aren't Direct Hits which leaves you with a 77% chance of NOT drawing one the second time.  The third card is 23/30 for 76.7%.  To find the odds of not drawing a Direct Hit in all of those requires multiply the odds chances together.

Of course if more damage cards are known the pool changes.  Each know damage card effectively reduces the size of the DD which is the denominator.  Each know Direct Hit card actually INCREASES the chances of NOT drawing another Direct Hit.  If you happen know know all of the direct hit cards are gone your numerator and denominator are the same giving you a 100% chance of NOT drawing another one no matter how many unknowns remain.

 

One of the interesting effects of Kylo's abilities is that he lets you search the DD meaning you'll know exactly what is in it at that time even if you don't choose to put a card on the condition.  You may randomize the DD after the search but you theoretically still know the exact composition which otherwise needs to count any unknown face-down cards as being in the DD when trying to calculate the odds.

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10 hours ago, Oberron said:

Depends on what you mean by successful I guess. What does a normal decimator x7 list look like?

It used to be: RAC+VI,Vade,HotShot,Gunner,EU and Ryad+Juke,X7. And it was pretty strong archetype (won some regionals even).

Swapping to Kylo + Any configuration of Maarek is not such a great deal.

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