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Dereksson

Maarek Stele Ability and I'll show you the dark side condition card interaction

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Hi,

I'm not sure how Maarek Stele's ability interacts with the 'I'll show you the dark side' condition.

I have Kylo in the Upsilon and Maarek in the TIE Advanced.

Maarek is set up like this to help get crits...
Maarek Stele (TIE Adv)
TIE/x1
A Score to Settle
Advanced Targeting Computer

The second part of 'I'll show you the dark side' says this...
'When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card.'

Maarek Stele's ability says this...
When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, instead draw 3 Damage cards, choose 1 to deal, and discard the others.

So is this how things happen?

1) Maarek's attack lands a crit result on a defending ship (which has the 'I'll show you the dark side' condition card assigned to it)
2) The crit result isn't evaded so the defending ship suffers critical damage.
3) The 'I'll show you the dark side' condition activates so the defending ship gets dealt the chosen faceup Damage card (bypassing any shields the defending ship may have)
Except...
4) Instead of dealing that card I want to use Maarek's ability. I draw 3 Damage cards and choose 1 to deal, and discard the others.
5) The now 'un-dealt' Damage card on the 'I'll show you the dark side' condition card remains on the card.

Is this right?
Thanks

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I was afraid of opening this particular can of worms, but it was inevitable.

There are some things to consider:

- YSYTDS card definitely is part of the attack, as it replaces the suffering of one die result.

- As the attack deals a face-up card, Maarek activates.

On a normal critical, you would draw a single card from the deck... And to satisfy Maarek, you would normally draw 2 additional cards to resolve its ability. I think the better solution is doing exactly the same with YSYTDS.

The 'pilot critical' on the condition card would be considered the '1st draw' and then, you'd draw 2 additional cards to fulfill Maarek. Then, choose one of the three, and others go to discard.

 

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I think the OP's interpretation is correct (Maarek's draw-3-choose-1 replaces ISYTDS's card, his card goes through shields, ISYTDS stays out with the same card on it) but the case is definitely in need of FAQ.

3 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

On a normal critical, you would draw a single card from the deck... And to satisfy Maarek, you would normally draw 2 additional cards to resolve its ability. I think the better solution is doing exactly the same with YSYTDS.

The 'pilot critical' on the condition card would be considered the '1st draw' and then, you'd draw 2 additional cards to fulfill Maarek. Then, choose one of the three, and others go to discard.

 

This would be accurate if Maarek said 'draw 2 extra cards and choose one to assign'.  But he doesn't.

To add more fun, what happens when Maarek crits Leebo whilst Leebo has ISYTDS?

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I don't think so.

Looking at Jehan's post I'm tending to agree with that.  ISYTDS makes sure there is one card there to pick from and then a couple more besides.

I'm thinking the Maarek/Leebo question has been answered that Maarek goes first and then Leebo goes second with Maarek choosing what to deal and Leebo choosing what to apply.  If throwing ISYTDS into the mix just alters what Maarek is picking from it isn't going to alter how Leebo works one bit.  Without Maarek in the mix ISYTDS deals its card to Leebo who then picks up another and decides which one to keep.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I think the OP's interpretation is correct (Maarek's draw-3-choose-1 replaces ISYTDS's card, his card goes through shields, ISYTDS stays out with the same card on it) but the case is definitely in need of FAQ.

And while the use of a FAQ for ISYTDS is probably a given, especially after that mess about what should happen when there isn't a pilot card in the DD to select (answer: no card placed w/ action spent), you've certainly got some of the rest of that wrong.  Maybe you're accounting for upgrades to Maarek which I'm not yet familiar with but critical damage doesn't "go through shields" as a rule.  For Maarek to trigger the attack would need to be dealing a face-up damage card which generally means a critical has gone through after defense and shields have been removed.

 

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I think this is a very though call and would require a FAQ update but i would say you are correct.  The result of a Maarek crit attack would be a faceup dmg so he would get to draw 3/chose 1.  But i am 100% sure it will be FAQed otherwise because it is totally overpowered:

- Since the crit on ISYTS is never used, if Maarek deals 2 or 3 crits they all bypass shields and for each of them you draw 3 cards and choose 1 crit to trigger. Both ability are not once per turn.  Ouch!

- Since Maarek attacks first, if the shuttle deals a crit it will also bypass shields and deal the ISYTS card.

- This means a potential 4 crit bypassing shields per turn.  This also means more than 4 potential direct hull dmg per turn if one crit from Maarek is a 2dmg.

- A duo of Maarek with adaptability (so he can attack 1st with ps8) and RAC with Gunner+Vader+Kylo could take down most large ship (and even huge ones!) in a single turn.  Were talking about a potential 7 shield bypassing crit per turn!

Edited by Thormind

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Just now, Thormind said:

I think this is a very though call and would require a FAQ update but i would say you are correct.  Only problem is you do not have a choice.  The card from "Ill show you the dark side" (ISYTS) would never be dealt by Maarek ability.  It does feel a bit overpowered because:

- Since the crit on ISYTS is never used, if Maarek deals 2 or 3 crits they all bypass shields and for each of them you draw 3 cards and choose 1 crit to trigger. Both ability are not once per turn.  Ouch!

- Since Maarek attacks first if the shuttle deals a crit it will also bypass shields and deal the ISYTS card.

- This means a potential 4 crit bypassing shields per turn.  This also means more than 4 potential direct hull dmg per turn if one crit from Maarek is a 2dmg.

- A duo of Maarek with adaptability (so he can attack 1st with ps8) and RAC with Gunner+Vader+Kylo can take down most large ship (and even huge ones!) in a single turn.  Were talking about a potential 7 shield bypassing crit per turn!

This kind of extreme edge casing doesn't really help all that much.

After all, it's theoretically possible for Rexler to kill a Decimator in a single attack phase, unassisted.  That doesn't mean it's likely or even plausible that it could happen in real play.

But yeah, the problem of Maarek not actually burning the card and dealing several crits through shields would be quite a big one.

I still think the OP's interpretation is correct by RAW, but I doubt that will be how it's FAQed.

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4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

This kind of extreme edge casing doesn't really help all that much.

After all, it's theoretically possible for Rexler to kill a Decimator in a single attack phase, unassisted.  That doesn't mean it's likely or even plausible that it could happen in real play.

But yeah, the problem of Maarek not actually burning the card and dealing several crits through shields would be quite a big one.

I still think the OP's interpretation is correct by RAW, but I doubt that will be how it's FAQed.

It's not that extreme.  Let's say 1 crit from Maarek, 1 from RAC and 1 from Vader Crew.  3 direct crit on a single turn.  Kills most small ship and hampers severely any other one...

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I'm seeing all of the "Crit bypass Shield" stuff and wondering where the **** is that all coming from? 

I guess I'm maybe reading ISYTDS all wrong which certainly would complicate things.  Maybe I see how ISYTDS could carry a face-up card through the Shield but if that's going to happen then that card would have to be used even if Maarek changes it for something else.

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9 minutes ago, StevenO said:

I'm seeing all of the "Crit bypass Shield" stuff and wondering where the **** is that all coming from? 

I guess I'm maybe reading ISYTDS all wrong which certainly would complicate things.  Maybe I see how ISYTDS could carry a face-up card through the Shield but if that's going to happen then that card would have to be used even if Maarek changes it for something else.

ISYTDS definitely goes through shields.

As for whether that means that Maarek's specially-chosen crit can use Kylo's condition to tunnel through shields, well, ask youself: what happens if Maarek Stele hits someone with an Advanced Homing Missile? Nothing in Stele's pilot ability cares why you're dealing a face-up damage card (except that it has to be coming from an attack). There's no reason to suspect that he cares whether it got there via direct dealing versus suffering a critical damage and having no shields.

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1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:
1 hour ago, StevenO said:

I guess I'm maybe reading ISYTDS all wrong which certainly would complicate things.  Maybe I see how ISYTDS could carry a face-up card through the Shield but if that's going to happen then that card would have to be used even if Maarek changes it for something else.

ISYTDS definitely goes through shields.

As for whether that means that Maarek's specially-chosen crit can use Kylo's condition to tunnel through shields, well, ask youself: what happens if Maarek Stele hits someone with an Advanced Homing Missile? Nothing in Stele's pilot ability cares why you're dealing a face-up damage card (except that it has to be coming from an attack). There's no reason to suspect that he cares whether it got there via direct dealing versus suffering a critical damage and having no shields.

Could be.  I guess I don't think of there being any difference when "suffering damage" from filled in or open explosion symbols until you finally get to the dealing cards stage.

I'm still thinking the OPs idea that you could use ISYTDS to push through a Face-up card to trigger Maarek yet still keep the card on the condition is wrong.  Unless you take the card from the condition to deal it there is nothing for Maarek to trigger off of and then once he's done the leftover cards get discarded.  This would mean it happens once per condition application which certainly is strong but it shouldn't be usable multiple times in a single round.

 

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3 minutes ago, StevenO said:

 Unless you take the card from the condition to deal it there is nothing for Maarek to trigger off of and then once he's done the leftover cards get discarded.  This would mean it happens once per condition application which certainly is strong but it shouldn't be usable multiple times in a single round.

 

The key is Maarek is a replacement effect and wording is key. Maarek says:

"When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, instead draw 3 Damage cards, choose 1 to deal and discard the others."

The sequence then goes:

deal uncanceled crit to shields

- condition replacement, deal face up pilot crit instead

- - Maarek replacement, draw 3 and choose 1

Maarek doesn't instruct you to draw 2 additional cards, but rather says to draw 3 pick one. The condition crit allows him to use his ability and then he draws 3 fresh cards, picks 1, and discards the other 2 from the deck, leaving the condition crit still on the card.

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1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

ISYTDS definitely goes through shields.

As for whether that means that Maarek's specially-chosen crit can use Kylo's condition to tunnel through shields, well, ask youself: what happens if Maarek Stele hits someone with an Advanced Homing Missile? Nothing in Stele's pilot ability cares why you're dealing a face-up damage card (except that it has to be coming from an attack). There's no reason to suspect that he cares whether it got there via direct dealing versus suffering a critical damage and having no shields.

Unless the card counts as being dealt by the condition instead of by Maarek's attack, then it wouldn't trigger at all. That's kind of wacky though.

 

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9 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Unless the card counts as being dealt by the condition instead of by Maarek's attack, then it wouldn't trigger at all. That's kind of wacky though.

 

A valid concern but we have something close to a precedent with Rexler Brath and his faq about minor explosion.

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"I'll Show You the Dark Side" and Maarek Stele both trigger during the "Deal Damage" step. Both cards present situations of do X instead of Y. Both cards create unique circumstances outside of normal rules for the step. In either case, an uncancelled crit is still being resolved during the Deal Damage step. The attack (not the condition card) is still dealing damage to the defender. So the question is: what happens when you combine the two card abilities?

My theory: it depends first on whether or not the defender has shields, and second on initiative.

Follow the substeps of the Deal Damage Step. (Timing Chart Step 7)

Steps i and ii apply if the target has shields.

"i. Remove shield tokens to cancel hit results." - doesn't apply to the cards in question. 

"ii. Remove shield tokens to cancel crit results." This is an X instead of Y opportunity for "I'll Show You the Dark Side" because the defender is now suffering critical damage. Deal the faceup pilot crit from the condition card (X) instead of removing the shield (Y). The attack is still dealing the damage. This creates a new and separate X instead of Y opportunity for Maarek Stele. As the attacking ship, Maarek Stele requires the attacking player to draw three cards and deal one of them (X) instead of dealing the  faceup damage card from "I'll Show You The Dark Side" (Y). Since the card chosen via Maarek Stele was dealt instead, the condition should remain assigned to the defender with the damage card still on condition card. Note that Maarek Stele will not trigger on his own while the defender has shields. Also, each uncanceled crit is a separate opportunity for the condition card. If there is more than one uncanceled crit result, and the defender has shields, then the cycle repeats until there are no more uncanceled crits.

Steps iii and iv apply if the defender has no shields.

"iii. The defender is dealt facedown damage cards for remaining hit results." Again, hit results don't trigger either of the card abilities in question.

"iv. The defender is dealt faceup damage cards for remaining crit results." The defender is about to suffer critical damage from an attack, or in other words be dealt faceup damage from an attack. "I'll Show You the Dark Side" and Maarek Stele trigger simultaneously during this substep. "I'll Show You the Dark Side" is assigned to the defender, and the "you" text of the condition card applies to the defender. Maarek Stele's pilot ability is controlled by the attacking player. Two simultaneous effects are controlled by different players, so initiative determines which one resolves first. If the defender has initiative, then "I'll Show You the Dark Side" resolves first, and triggers Maarek Stele as a result. (Refer to what happened in substep ii.) If the attacker has initiative, then the attacking player draws three cards, and chooses one to deal. The defender is now suffering critical damage from an attack, and "I'll Show You the Dark Side" triggers as a result of the pilot ability.  

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I'll stick to my theory that the card on ISYTDS counts as the 1st draw for Maarek. If only to see who 'wins' the FAQ :) 

- What ISYTDS does is effectively pre-selecting the next critical-card your target will suffer. You may think of it as if by putting it on the condition card, it is always 'at the top' of the damage deck. 

- Maarek's ability could be read as "instead of drawing one single card, draw 3 and choose". Normally, you would grab the top card on the damage deck and 2 more. But since ISYTDS has already preselected the first grab for him, it 'forces' Maarek to grab its card first, then, to fulfill its ability you'd take 2 more from the deck.

I believe this is the RAI thinking of the developers.

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28 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

- What ISYTDS does is effectively pre-selecting the next critical-card your target will suffer. 

True. But its already preselected and put aside. Marek does not care. He draws from the deck.

 

28 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

You may think of it as if by putting it on the condition card, it is always 'at the top' of the damage deck. 

We may think that Emperor should win every game. Or that bananas are blue. Or about hot chics. As long as its not on the cards it does not count what we think.

28 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

- Maarek's ability could be read as "instead of drawing one single card, draw 3 and choose". Normally, you would grab the top card on the damage deck and 2 more. But since ISYTDS has already preselected the first grab for him, it 'forces' Maarek to grab its card first, then, to fulfill its ability you'd take 2 more from the deck.

He is very clear in what he does. He draws 3 cards from the deck. The deck is only 1 and in one place not scattered around. 

28 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

 believe this is the RAI thinking of the developers.

When why Kylo is not worded to something like: "Put a chosen crit on top of dmg deck"?

 

There is absolutely nothing to support that theory.

Edited by Vitalis

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2 hours ago, Vitalis said:

There is absolutely nothing to support that theory.

Only the fact that if the ISYTDS card 'intention' is meant to pre-select/replace the very next critical hit the opponent receives, it's meant to do so in all circumstances, including Maarek. He would only enable the option to choose between the mandatory one (ISYTDS) and two more random cards, thanks to his ability.

At this point, it's just waiting for the FAQ. Let's see who wins.

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5 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Only the fact that if the ISYTDS card 'intention' is meant to pre-select/replace the very next critical hit the opponent receives, it's meant to do so in all circumstances, including Maarek. He would only enable the option to choose between the mandatory one (ISYTDS) and two more random cards, thanks to his ability.

At this point, it's just waiting for the FAQ. Let's see who wins.

You have no better understanding of the designers' intentions than anyone else, and your position is not supported by what's written on the cards.

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My best guess is the FAQ will argue that the "instead" on ISYTDS will over-rule Maarek.  Maarek only triggers if his "attack deals" a face-up card.  You could argue that the condition is dealing the card instead.  Rules lawyering either way.

On a more important note: Can we all agree to abbreviate this stupid card STD?  Seems to create similar levels of discomfort and is so much easier to remember.

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