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jonboyjon1990

Anyone else slightly disappointed in the scale of the game?

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I'm not talking miniature scale, I'm talking the 'scale' of the battle; of the armies.

In the core set you get around 95 points worth of models, 4 units and around 25 figures per army. 

Now double that and then make room for upgrade cards and you're at a full army, but you're still only at around 50 figures and 8 units MAX. 

That's fine, but to me it doesn't give the sense of a full, epic, rank and file army vs army feel. 

It still feels more like a skirmish game...

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I'd suggest that FFG is aiming the scale of this game to be completed relatively quickly so that it can follow similar time frames as their other games, mainly for uniformity of competitive play purposes across their entire range (just an idea).

But from the looks of how they've fleshed out other games, and the way more "traditional" rank and file wargamers like to play, I think you'll have an amazing time by simply upping the points value of your games, much like the Epic version of X-wing.

I know I'm looking forward to running some huge games, but I also appreciate the smaller, faster games. Just food for thought. Play the game how you want, but accept that competitive play will always be "small".

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PPM gets cheaper the larger the unit gets. It's pretty interesting for making the game accessible for newer players while ramping up for more experienced players. I expect it to have the feel of 1250-1500 point fantasy army in 6th edition.
The one thing I am really looking forward to is the lack of "Gotcha" rules, and the focus on maneuvering units. Daqan is currently looking really interesting to me because a lot of their current upgrades allow them to cheat the dial to their advantage.

An Example is the smallest squad of reanimates goes from 2 PPM to 1.33 ppm.

Edited by Obscene

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I agree with Torpid Rebel, you will be able to enjoy playing the game at any scale. Just accept that tournaments are done at 200 points in order to keep the game fast moving which appeals to we boardgamers that are being converted to a wargame.

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FFG may do what they did for Armada, in the core rules it talks about 300 pt games as standard till large base ship's become available then it was 400 pts as standard.

The price of the xpacs are what I expect from FFG, if you look at the Games Workshop equivalent it's a little more expensive but you get more in the core set and xpacs from FFG.

Tabletop war games are not cheap to manufacture and collect

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3 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I'm not talking miniature scale, I'm talking the 'scale' of the battle; of the armies.

In the core set you get around 95 points worth of models, 4 units and around 25 figures per army. 

Now double that and then make room for upgrade cards and you're at a full army, but you're still only at around 50 figures and 8 units MAX. 

That's fine, but to me it doesn't give the sense of a full, epic, rank and file army vs army feel. 

It still feels more like a skirmish game...

... i wish FFG would go with a 15 mm scale instead, there you have so much figures and it really feels like a mass battle game, but i think everyone is so familiar with 28-32 mm that the customers aren't that much into other possible scales. I miss the good old times of Warmaster which was 10 mm i think, but 15 mm fantasy figures/armies would be so awesome for big battles :)!

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10 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I'm not talking miniature scale, I'm talking the 'scale' of the battle; of the armies.

In the core set you get around 95 points worth of models, 4 units and around 25 figures per army. 

Now double that and then make room for upgrade cards and you're at a full army, but you're still only at around 50 figures and 8 units MAX. 

That's fine, but to me it doesn't give the sense of a full, epic, rank and file army vs army feel. 

It still feels more like a skirmish game...

Do we know that the recommended or tournament size is 200 points? Going solely off of X-Wing, you need 3-4 times the minis from the core set to play a tournament sized game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the recommended  size turns out to be 300-400 points, if nothing else because anything smaller would seem to hamstring FFG's ability to sell enough expansion packs.

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5 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

Do we know that the recommended or tournament size is 200 points? Going solely off of X-Wing, you need 3-4 times the minis from the core set to play a tournament sized game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the recommended  size turns out to be 300-400 points, if nothing else because anything smaller would seem to hamstring FFG's ability to sell enough expansion packs.

They said 200 points at Gencon but perhaps that will be subject to change as more expansions are released.

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25 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

Do we know that the recommended or tournament size is 200 points? Going solely off of X-Wing, you need 3-4 times the minis from the core set to play a tournament sized game.

I wouldn't be surprised if the recommended  size turns out to be 300-400 points, if nothing else because anything smaller would seem to hamstring FFG's ability to sell enough expansion packs.

Going off of my experience with miniature games players if they like a game, tournament size isn't going to stop people from picking up new minis in a faction...

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20 minutes ago, Muz333 said:

They said 200 points at Gencon but perhaps that will be subject to change as more expansions are released.

Thanks for that! That seems salient to the pricing thread too then. Anyone know how many points two trays of reanimate archers or Daqan cavalry are?

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17 minutes ago, jek said:

Going off of my experience with miniature games players if they like a game, tournament size isn't going to stop people from picking up new minis in a faction...

Oh, that's a fact! No one, least of all me, will stop buying once they've hit the recommended game-size army.

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18 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

Thanks for that! That seems salient to the pricing thread too then. Anyone know how many points two trays of reanimate archers or Daqan cavalry are?

CK0Htha.png

18 points for two trays of archers.

8P2Juq1.png

34(I think) points for the two trays of cavalry.

2x1 = 20 points

2x2 = 34 points

2x6 = 66 points

3x3 = 88 points

Edited by Muz333

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Oathsworn:  Formation 1: 5 ppm Formation 2: 4.25 ppm Formation 3:  5.5 ppm Formation 4: 4.89 ppm
Rune Golem: Formation 1: 17 ppm Formation 2: 14 ppm Formation 3: 12.5 ppm Formation 4:  12.3 ppm
Spearmen: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 1.875 ppm Formation 3: 1.67  Formation 4:  1.63 ppm

Carrion Lancer: Formation 1: 15 ppm Formation 2: 13.5 ppm Formation 3: 11.5 ppm Formation 4: 11.3 ppm
Reanimate Archers: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 2 ppm Formation 3: 1.875 ppm
Reanimates: Formation 1: 2 ppm Formation 2:  1.625 ppm Formation 3:  1.458 ppm Formation 4: 1.388 ppm Formation 5:  1.333 ppm

Oathsworn not getting cheaper is pretty interesting. Probably has to do with they are pretty hardcore damage/toughness wise. 

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21 minutes ago, Muz333 said:

CK0Htha.png

18 points for two trays of archers.

8P2Juq1.png

34(I think) points for the two trays of cavalry.

2x1 = 20 points

2x2 = 34 points

2x6 = 66 points

3x3 = 88 points

The 3x3 formation makes me think that it is set up to take a mounted hero

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1 hour ago, jek said:

The 3x3 formation makes me think that it is set up to take a mounted hero

Well we have seen mounted heroes at Gencon!

 

our ago, Obscene said:

Oathsworn not getting cheaper is pretty interesting. Probably has to do with they are pretty hardcore damage/toughness wise. 

I find that strange as well.

Edited by Muz333

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I think it might have to do with how much stronger the unit gets at the 6 tray formation. It gains access to a big spectrum of upgrades. Of course, I think at that point it's better to just run the full deathstar and go for the 9 tray formation.

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1 hour ago, Obscene said:

Oathsworn:  Formation 1: 5 ppm Formation 2: 4.25 ppm Formation 3:  5.5 ppm Formation 4: 4.89 ppm
Rune Golem: Formation 1: 17 ppm Formation 2: 14 ppm Formation 3: 12.5 ppm Formation 4:  12.3 ppm
Spearmen: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 1.875 ppm Formation 3: 1.67  Formation 4:  1.63 ppm

Carrion Lancer: Formation 1: 15 ppm Formation 2: 13.5 ppm Formation 3: 11.5 ppm Formation 4: 11.3 ppm
Reanimate Archers: Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 2 ppm Formation 3: 1.875 ppm
Reanimates: Formation 1: 2 ppm Formation 2:  1.625 ppm Formation 3:  1.458 ppm Formation 4: 1.388 ppm Formation 5:  1.333 ppm

Oathsworn not getting cheaper is pretty interesting. Probably has to do with they are pretty hardcore damage/toughness wise. 

Hey there,

Could you explain me what is that writing convention ? I mean, what does Formation 1:5 ppm mean for example ? I understand the word "formation" of course

(:P would be a real shame to ignore it while I've written a few posts on this forum, hé hé ), but the rest is a total Edward Nigma for me...:ph34r:

Also when they speak of 9 trays formation, and in the example of the oathsworn cavalry, do we then talk about 9 trays of two knights each, then 9*2=18 minis ?

Edited by Elrad

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Points per model.
An example is Oathsworn Calvary starts out at 20 points for 2 trays of 2 models each.  This ends up equaling 5 points per a model. 
Kind of important for combat and knowing what can trade with what favorably.  With that chart I know when my oathsworn charge into some reanimates, I want to kill at least 5 points worth  of reanimates. I.E. Greater than a trays worth.  Or that when I'm fighting a carrion lancer, an acceptable loss is 3 calvary per a lancer. Now this isn't always true because a unit doesn't have to make it's point back, it just has to "earn" it, however I used oathsworn for this example because the unit is pretty killy and that should be something it does. However, I wouldn't expect a unit of reanimates to kill it's worth of points.

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5 minutes ago, Obscene said:

Points per model.
An example is Oathsworn Calvary starts out at 20 points for 2 trays of 2 models each.  This ends up equaling 5 points per a model. 
Kind of important for combat and knowing what can trade with what favorably.  With that chart I know when my oathsworn charge into some reanimates, I want to kill at least 5 points worth  of reanimates. I.E. Greater than a trays worth.  Or that when I'm fighting a carrion lancer, an acceptable loss is 3 calvary per a lancer. Now this isn't always true because a unit doesn't have to make it's point back, it just has to "earn" it, however I used oathsworn for this example because the unit is pretty killy and that should be something it does. However, I wouldn't expect a unit of reanimates to kill it's worth of points.

A big thank to you for this clear explanation. It's becoming obvious that I am a true non minis games player... And well, I learned something valuable here, so.. thanks again :). But my last question wasn't answered : on the card it is said that the last cavalry formation has 9 trays, so it means that you would have 18 knights aligned on the battlefield in a 3*3 trays suqared formation ?

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17 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I'm not talking miniature scale, I'm talking the 'scale' of the battle; of the armies.

In the core set you get around 95 points worth of models, 4 units and around 25 figures per army. 

Now double that and then make room for upgrade cards and you're at a full army, but you're still only at around 50 figures and 8 units MAX. 

That's fine, but to me it doesn't give the sense of a full, epic, rank and file army vs army feel. 

It still feels more like a skirmish game...

Has there been any two-player starter set for a miniature game that really included "large" armies in the past ten or so years? 4 different units per side is larger than many others I've seen and on par with others.

Edited by Kubernes

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8 hours ago, Kubernes said:

Has there been any two-player starter set for a miniature game that really included "large" armies in the past ten or so years? 4 different units per side is larger than many others I've seen and on par with others.

I'm not really talking about the starter set. I'm talking about the scale of the game in general. 200 points is the 'standard' list and it will at most include around 8 units and 50 figures. That's more like warband vs warband, rather than huge epic army vs huge epic army

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