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The prices are outrageous

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For the record: Those are the types of upgrades available in general. The specific model upgrades are pictured in white:(Not all upgrades require a command level unit.)
Bottom left is the unit type and faction. Infantry and Daqan. The top left is his stat profile. The top right is his model. The Bottom right is his point cost.
The center in the image reflects upon when you can take him. So this guy can be taken, according to the cards from gencon, in a 2  by 2 formation. 
rwm05_lance_corporal.png
Spearmen average out at:  Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 1.875 ppm Formation 3: 1.67  Formation 4:  1.63 ppm
So he is kind of expensive almost equaling the value of a whole tray at the units largest size. 

Edited by Obscene
Forgot something.

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So with our most basic of knowledge for this game thus far does that card mean you could use a charge action and the extra damage modifier on that charge instead of only using that modifier on a normal attack?

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4 minutes ago, jek said:

So with our most basic of knowledge for this game thus far does that card mean you could use a charge action and the extra damage modifier on that charge instead of only using that modifier on a normal attack?

I'm still wrapping my brains around it, but I think that if you collide and did not choose a charge modifier, you don't get to attack, so even if you chose the red hit modifier, you wouldn't deal damage. I'm not sure, though.

Edited by Budgernaut

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53 minutes ago, Muz333 said:

Command units can only be inserted into squads that have a sufficient formation size, as per the back of their card. As such you probably won't be needing many of these command packs because the points limit dictates that you won't be fielding many large formations in your army.

I'm also glad they aren't paired with the infantry squads because then you'd likely end up with too many for your army. This problem gets exasperated when the Daqan get archers, or heavy infantry etc as surely they too would then need the inclusion of the formation upgrade units?

 

Edit:

Actually, looking at the back of reanimates I suppose it is possible you may want a few musicians and standard bearers for your army if you aren't going for big squads. Although then the upgrades cost points so you will have a smaller army but it stands to reason you may want a few of these packs after all.

pic3127977_lg.jpg

I'm guessing that the fourth symbol is wizard, hence the 4 types of quasi heroes in the champion set.

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2 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Assuming that a "full strength" army is roughly twice what comes in the core set, buying a core set and trading with a friend will get you a full army for $100.  In that sense, ~$33 gets you 1/3 of a "squad". 

I think you're being a little disingenuous with your X-Wing comparison.  Everyone I know who plays X-Wing has a kajillion ships that they're never actually going to play with because they needed/wanted the upgrade cards.  In that sense, your TIE Defender w/Upgrades costs a lot more than $15.  If you're flying your ships with only the included upgrades, you'll likely find yourself at a competitive disadvantage.  Let's call a duck a duck...  X-Wing CAN be cheap, but almost never is as people buy lots of ships they'll never use.

 

I definitely agree with your point there and I wasn't trying to be disingenuous at all.  I was just trying to say it could be viewed that way.  The way I see it is that, yes, you typically will have a lot more stuff in xwing other than what you field for upgrade cards and such.  However, there's no assurance it won't be the same here.  They have said that we won't need to purchase packs from other factions to get our upgrades, but I have no idea if  good daqan cavalry upgrade will show up in the infantry/spearman upgrade pack... That's just something we dont' know yet.  If we don't have any of those shenanigans, then yes the cost could be quite equal.  But later in the game's  life you'll probably have a lot of units for each faction and then maybe you'll only want to use a few units, but you'll need upgrades spanning the entire faction at which point it would be the same as xwing except that now your "minimum competitive squad" could cost more because the price of a 'squad' is just bigger in the game.  

All this of course is just concerns based on guesses.  I'm going off bare minimum costs.  The fact that this game will, at best, cost as much as xwing is not awesome for my wallet, but I do really want it.  I think I'm mostly just sad because this likely means I'll have to stop buying some of the star wars mini games FFG already makes.  I've honestly been pretty underwhelmed with the new xwing ships anyway and enjoy armada more and more, so I'll probably just trade my xwing addiction for a runewars addiction, but it would have been nice to maintain all of my vices :\  Oh well, first world problems.

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3 minutes ago, Obscene said:

For the record: Those are the types of upgrades available in general. The specific model upgrades are pictured in white:(Not all upgrades require a command level unit.)
Bottom left is the unit type and faction. Infantry and Daqan. The top left is his stat profile. The top right is his model. The Bottom right is his point cost.
The center in the image reflects upon when you can take him. So this guy can be taken, according to the cards from gencon, in a 2  by 2 formation. 
rwm05_lance_corporal.png
Spearmen average out at:  Formation 1: 2.25 ppm Formation 2: 1.875 ppm Formation 3: 1.67  Formation 4:  1.63 ppm
So he is kind of expensive almost equaling the value of a whole tray at the units largest size. 

Well, that's the rub of every upgrade in just about every FFG miniature game: comparative costs.

Comparative costs are the same thing when it comes to miniatures too. I look at a game like Infinity and see that miniatures are $10 or so for basic infantry and that you could get a starter army for $60. Retail. You could also do this for other games like Malifaux or X-Wing. My problem is that I like variety so even with a game like X-Wing I tend to buy new ships and my costs go up. With other miniature games there are the additional costs of rule books to go along with that.

I still think the core set is a great deal, but that's what starters/core sets should do. If you have a friend, just play the launch first and try out both factions to decide which one you want since you both will probably need another core set for extra counters, cards, or templates.

 

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10 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I'm still wrapping my brains around it, but I think that if you collide and did not choose a charge modifier, you don't get to attack, so even if you chose the red hit modifier, you wouldn't deal damage. I'm not sure, though.

I see my error I forgot that charge was a modifier and not an action.  So this card would let you potentially take a fast action that doesn't have a modifier with any modifier of your choice now...?

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1 minute ago, jek said:

I see my error I forgot that charge was a modifier and not an action.  So this card would let you potentially take a fast action that doesn't have a modifier with any modifier of your choice now...?

Yes, that's how I see it. The yellow March order is very fast, but can't turn. With that upgrade in your army, you would be able to make that march a turn. I hope they have turn templates for that, unlike in X-Wing how they didn't make 4- and 5-speed banks and turns and have been constrained by that in all future designs.

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21 minutes ago, jek said:

So with our most basic of knowledge for this game thus far does that card mean you could use a charge action and the extra damage modifier on that charge instead of only using that modifier on a normal attack?

I think the most obvious implication is being able to use the hit modifier on a quick orange attack for a nice amount of damage or to boost your units armor. The yellow movement could also be turned into a charge. MAYBE causing the unit to be able to face a flanking foe and attack in the same turn or shift the unit an inch and attack in the same turn.  Definitely a powerful card.

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After theorying some units out (namely for the daqan side, havn't had enough time to touch waiqar), Things die pretty quickly in this game. Somethings can deal loads of damage such Kairi or the Calvary, but even a rank n file spearmen unit can do quite a bit of damage. On a magic roll doing 12 damage with out flanking.  3 trays of reanimates! Reanimate Archers can do this as well from ranged! So I really don't think a ton of MSU units, so far, is the way to go. This could change depending on upgrades and new units but it seems big blocks with characters or elite units as flanking is the way to go. Thats not to say, a large block of front line rune golems wouldn't be effective, but a Ardus coming in from the side could definitely chew through the lot of them if he rolls well and has the mortal strike ability from the carrion lancer active. Kairi on a strong roll can zap through a ton of units as well with her chain lightning or whatever the thematic reasoning for her surge ability is.  So expect games to be bloody.

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I was looking back over yesterday's news article and I noticed that there is no command dial in the command pack. Now, once I realized that, I thought it was quite obvious that there is none. I wouldn't expect there to be one since it is not a unit. I suppose a better phrasing would be that I noticed there was a command dial with the skeleton archers and knight cavalry when I didn't remember seeing them yesterday.

In any case, the thought struck me that it is basically a $30 upgrade pack. People in the X-Wing forums have been clamoring for upgrade-only packs on and off over the years. I realized that the command packs are basically just that. If you want FFG to release an upgrade-only pack, then this is what it will look like. The models in this pack are directly tied to the included upgrades. It's not like X-Wing where you need to buy a StarViper for one upgrade so that your TIE Interceptors (in a completely different faction) can survive a battle. In this case, you don't have to chase other figures to get your upgrades; FFG just gives them to you straight-up ... but you still have to pay for them.

Now maybe I'm just trying to talk myself back into this game, but when I imagine it as an upgrade-only pack that eliminates the need to buy out-of-faction, it seems a whole lot more palatable.

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2 hours ago, Taki said:

I'm guessing that the fourth symbol is wizard, hence the 4 types of quasi heroes in the champion set.

And the fifth is a siege upgrade, such as placing a Rune Golem in your squad of infantry to boost their damage.

 

52 minutes ago, Obscene said:

I do believe, off of some very hard eye straining, that the two command packs even share the non faction specific upgrades.

That is the case. I spotted Fortunes Dice in both faction packs. I tried to make out the full text for the upgrades but could only work out half of the text for each.

 

1 hour ago, Obscene said:

So I really don't think a ton of MSU units, so far, is the way to go. This could change depending on upgrades and new units but it seems big blocks with characters or elite units as flanking is the way to go.

On the other hand, small squads may be useful for the increased activations, which may be especially important for a lot of the objectives. Then again medium sized squads may prove to be great for flanking the opponents large units and attacking them on all fronts as the large units get tangled up in the terrain. Or perhaps large units with maximum damage and flexibility through upgrades is the way to go?

I love how varied the tactics are that we can set up with and how the objectives will play a role in this. Perhaps you don't normally want cavalry but for that far away objective you want the extra forward movement! Personally I can't wait to see a full formation of Rune Golems or Carrion Lancers chew straight through infantry.

Edited by Muz333

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7 hours ago, Elliphino said:

X-Wing, which I consider to be the best value game on the market, is also sneakily expensive at retail prices. Here's the cost of some squadrons appearing at last year's world's

Dengar+Manaroo winning squadron: 254.63

Corran Horn + Miranda, 2nd place (just two small ships): $134.70

Palpatine + Countess Ryad + Colonel Vessery (the most common list in the top 16, next to Manaroo): 279.55

I realize everyone has to make their own decisions, and that we're all starting from different places in terms of expectations. But If I end up spending less than $400 for a full-scale, rank and file miniatures game I consider it a steal.

That's the price range for ultra competitive worlds players, the rest of us chumps can just buy 4-5 ship's and have just as much fun on a much cheaper budget.

FFG did say we won't have to buy out of faction to get the upgrades so hopefully we won't see a money wins matches situation with runewars.

I do worry that the price of expansions will unbalance the game early on. IA is fantastic but as soon as it was released some players bought 4 core sets so they could run the 4x4 list. This list dominated IA for the first year and put a great game into a really bad competitive scene.

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5 minutes ago, mulletcheese said:

I do worry that the price of expansions will unbalance the game early on. IA is fantastic but as soon as it was released some players bought 4 core sets so they could run the 4x4 list. This list dominated IA for the first year and put a great game into a really bad competitive scene.

Which is why I'm glad that it looks like we'll be able to buy all core units separately. Royal Guards were brutal!

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38 minutes ago, Muz333 said:

Which is why I'm glad that it looks like we'll be able to buy all core units separately. Royal Guards were brutal!

But we can't buy them all separately straight away. If the best list is all golumns then it could get really bad. Or if 5x unit upgrade boxes makes for the most powerful list.

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Ok, putting all the pieces together, special thanks to Muz333, Nalim, and Jek, I have priced out a minimum sized Waiqar army at $160. Really not at all bad price-wise, although I suspect maybe not the most amazing army to ever hit the table top. To get here, you need to split two core sets with a buddy, and buy only the two expansions packs, archers and command. This gives you a 200 point-ish army (I really don't know what a wizard costs and whether there are other upgrades that can fill in the gap. But here is your army:

  1. Ardus Ix'Erebus
  2. 9 Reanimate Bases, Musician, Banner, Hero
  3. 4 Archer Bases, Wizard
  4. 2 Archer Bases
  5. 2 Carrion Lancers

There may be unit size and number shake-ups you could do if it turns out MSU is a better style, but the point is, you could be playing this game for less than $200 pretty easily.

 

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Multiple Small Units.
It usually finds its strength for several reasons:
Tons of Targets forces overkill,(this is highlighted even more so in this game because bigger units don't get more attacks.)
Being able to block charge lanes effectively and take charges on small units and deliver counter punches/flanks more effectively
Being able to take more special weapons/command options
This game has built in several options to combat MSU tactics but not sure if it invalidates it.

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12 minutes ago, Obscene said:

Why not the archers in a 6 tray formation? Gaining the extra multiplier is huge, and I believe you can still run the wizard by subbing out one archer.(not entirely sure, but I think that is how it works.)

That's how it works. When you assign the upgrade to a unit, you take one of the figures out of the unit and replace it with the upgraded dude. Also, when units are killed they come from the back rank first, so you will want to put your upgrade dudes in the front row. They can still be targeted with accuracies, but those are generally rare.

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4 minutes ago, Obscene said:

Why not the archers in a 6 tray formation? Gaining the extra multiplier is huge, and I believe you can still run the wizard by subbing out one archer.(not entirely sure, but I think that is how it works.)

Yep... Why not? I don't know what the best unit size will be given that I haven't played the game yet. I could see it being a great idea to get the modifiers from a powerful, 6-tray attack. But if I'm thinking about having to be the target of that attack, I might want smaller units so that my opponent wastes his fancy shots on a crappy little unit.

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2 hours ago, Elliphino said:

Yep... Why not? I don't know what the best unit size will be given that I haven't played the game yet. I could see it being a great idea to get the modifiers from a powerful, 6-tray attack. But if I'm thinking about having to be the target of that attack, I might want smaller units so that my opponent wastes his fancy shots on a crappy little unit.

I honestly prefer two 3 tray units for the flexibility. No reroll but two potential attacks instead of one. Not counting upgrades and the like.

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19 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I honestly prefer two 3 tray units for the flexibility. No reroll but two potential attacks instead of one. Not counting upgrades and the like.

I do think that having two two tray units would also be valid, the pits fall in it of course are that the red die have 2 blanks, so the re-roll is pretty important on any given red die unit. The biggest deal I think will come down to the equipment available as almost all of them have been pretty impact full. 
Also, I think Kari will absolutely butcher small units of reanimate archers, her melee attack surge ability is no freaking joke.

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