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The prices are outrageous

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14 minutes ago, Muz333 said:

Meanwhile, for us in Britain we watch our pound fluctuate with talks of referendums and fallout's from referendums passed.

Bad moment for Britain people to import things. On the oposite is a good moment for rest of EU to get things from UK.

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2 hours ago, Hijodecain said:

Bad moment for Britain people to import things. On the oposite is a good moment for rest of EU to get things from UK.

With the tensions between EU member states and the unpredictable enigma which is the new US administration, exchange rates for mainland EU currencies aren't exactly stable or favourable either.

Edited by player1750031

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2 hours ago, Muz333 said:

Meanwhile, for us in Britain we watch our pound fluctuate with talks of referendums and fallout's from referendums passed.

Fluctuating is not the term I'd use, floundering may be more accurate, and there's another f word that springs to mind :lol:

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It's a bad time to be Scottish as well. As if families and friends weren't fractured enough from 2014 we may be set to do it all over again. As a very pro-union fellow I walk around with a target on my back in north Scotland!

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3 hours ago, Muz333 said:

It's a bad time to be Scottish as well. As if families and friends weren't fractured enough from 2014 we may be set to do it all over again. As a very pro-union fellow I walk around with a target on my back in north Scotland!

You guys are headed for an independence vote soon to stay in Europe right?  I would hope that would help the tariff situation on these games.

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42 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

You guys are headed for an independence vote soon to stay in Europe right?  I would hope that would help the tariff situation on these games.

The UK voted out of Europe. Now Scotland want to have a second attempt at leaving the UK, which pits Scots for and against the UK against one another in civil war.

Edited by Muz333

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1 hour ago, Muz333 said:

The UK voted out of Europe. Now Scotland want to have a second attempt at leaving the UK, which pits Scots for and against the UK against one another in civil war.

Brutal situation.  I know the majority of Scots voted against Brexit, and recently BBC world news says there's a Scottish  independence referendum to be voted on in the next couple of years.  I just assumed the two were correlated.

Hopefully no one gets out of hand over there.  In the states we've had issues with politically related violence of late.  It's no fun to look at your own countrymen and wonder if they're the next mild mannered guy to get heated and go off.

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We might see the price of the pound rise or fall but that might be just be your typical 'end times' rant by any random politician looking for a quick rise in the polls. The length of time it takes for go through all the bureaucratic issues and renegotiations will mean that people won't notice the little to zero change that will actually happen. The situation won't really change when it comes to shipping or your usual miniature buying.

Britain wanting to seek something as an alternative to the EU is nothing new. It wanted free trade areas prior to its joining in 73 primarily as a way having a connection to the community but not necessarily being a part of it. Even the negotiations to enter the EU seemed based on political indecision and throughout the years a sort of hesitance was prevalent. For example, Thatcher and the Conservative Party were supposed to be the 'Party of Europe' in the mid and late 70s but ended up only being relatively combative with other leaders in the 80s.

Europe has always been a constantly changing thing and will seemingly always continue that trend.

 

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8 hours ago, Kubernes said:

The situation won't really change when it comes to shipping or your usual miniature buying

With the tiny difference that we are paying 20% more for them as they are essentially a USD denominated commodity. There are also other more technical aspects but this is not the forum for them

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On 3/16/2017 at 1:28 AM, TallTonyB said:

Ok, I guess I have to spell it out to you. You're wrong. Period. The formations have nothing to do with the sales model, and everything to do with it being a rank and file game. You can keep trying to troll me, but it doesn't really work when I know for a fact you are wrong.

And you're right because you are some random poster on the internet? 

Show me some legit proof and I'll take your word for it, you will have to forgive me if I don't just believe random poster #3245.

I can play this game to. Hey you are wrong, I know for a fact you are wrong.

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On 3/16/2017 at 0:56 AM, pella91 said:

I have to admit that i'm a little worried about expansions prices. I'm from Europe and if the core set usually come in our markets with pretty onest euro-conversion i've already see a lot of expansions from other games (descent, eldritch horror) reaching quite outrageus prices. Im worried about having to pay 40,00 euros or more for a little expansion.

Shhhh!!! They aren't over priced.. how dare you bring that up in a thread dedicated about the game being over priced! Quick run, before they get their pitch forks.

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13 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

And you're right because you are some random poster on the internet? 

Show me some legit proof and I'll take your word for it, you will have to forgive me if I don't just believe random poster #3245.

I can play this game to. Hey you are wrong, I know for a fact you are wrong.

He's playtester that has inside information from FFG. He's seen how this game was put together behind the scenes, but he can't give you proof because doing so would break his non-disclosure agreement. So the best he can tell you is that you're wrong and you can't get any more information out of him than that. (By the way, he is the one who ran the demo table at GenCon in the Team Covenant video.)

EDIT: Also, part of the NDA would be that he cannot confirm that he is a playtester. It's just something I've inferred from his running the demo and being so familiar with the rules.

Edited by Budgernaut

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Ok so a play tester is privy to the business side of the model? I find that really, really hard to believe. And if anything this makes me believe him less, lol.

FFG and Asmodee flew down their execs to have an intimate meeting with him before he play tested the game to give him all the ins and outs of running a successful table top company? That's what happened?

Sounds legit.

 

Edited by FrogTrigger

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Just now, FrogTrigger said:

Ok so a play tester is privy to the business side of the model? I find that really, really hard to believe. And if anything this makes me believe him less, lol.

 

You're right, he wouldn't have any direct information about the business model. But we're not talking about the business model. Your assertion is that the formation sizes were chosen because of the business model and he is saying that it was not due to business model but due to something else, like gameplay. If he saw discussions about the formations and saw different iterations being tested and seriously considered with feedback from the playtesters, that would show that gameplay was the primary reason for the final formations. If they had a set business model from the beginning, they likely wouldn't listen to feedback about formation sizes. That would be the kind of thing that could convince someone that the business model is likely NOT the major faction.

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I said that the business model was set up and the game was built around it, they made 5 pegs that all fit in the same hole, then tested those pegs to see which one people liked handling the best. The argument against me was that the game was tested and balanced first and then they figured out how they want to sell it. Does that make any sense? You are essentially leaving your ability to make profit up to a whim. Where as if you deal with the way you are going to make money first then you can build the game around that and be successful. Which makes more sense for a business?

Edited by FrogTrigger

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43 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

Ok so a play tester is privy to the business side of the model? I find that really, really hard to believe. And if anything this makes me believe him less, lol.

FFG and Asmodee flew down their execs to have an intimate meeting with him before he play tested the game to give him all the ins and outs of running a successful table top company? That's what happened?

Sounds legit.

 

i am not a runewars playtester, however i have been a playtester for several other games.  and while the entire business model might not be apparent to a playtester, you would be surprised how much the business side of things leeks into the playtesting side of things.  i would not be surprised at all for a playtester to have some idea as to the business model or goals.

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14 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

I said that the business model was set up and the game was built around it, they made 5 pegs that all fit in the same hole, then tested those pegs to see which one people liked handling the best. The argument against me was that the game was tested and balanced first and then they figured out how they want to sell it. Does that make any sense? You are essentially leaving your ability to make profit up to a whim. Where as if you deal with the way you are going to make money first then you can build the game around that and be successful. Which makes more sense for a business?

Yeah, that makes sense. But you can't decide how you're going to sell things if you don't know what it is you're selling. Game design had to inform the business model as much as the business model informed game design. They would have to know how the tray and formation system worked before they could say they were going to sell two-trays' worth of units in each expansion.

Now, back to your original beef with the game: the formations. Your earlier assertions basically state you believe there was a conversation like this at one point:

Designer/Developer: "We have discrete formations in which to add units. They have to be discrete so that the threat and reroll mechanics work in a meaningful way. For the Oathsworn Cavalry, we have formations of 2x1, 2x2, 2x3, and 4x2."
Sales department: "Hmm, that doesn't work for us. This would mean a person could purchase the largest formation with 1 core and 3 expansions. You need to make it 3x3 so we can sell one more expansion pack to the completionists who need to have a full army and that way we can cheat them out of their money by having them buy 1 more tray than they can actually use, because if they buy waste it somehow profits us.
Designer/Developer: "Well, we could increase the formation size to 4x3* so that it's even. Then a completionist would buy two more expansions to get the largest formation and there would be no waste."
Sales department: "No, no. We're only happy if they're buying more than they can use. If they can use every model in 4x3, then we can't go with that option."

Obviously that is an exaggeration of the conversation, but my point is that they don't get any benefit out of you wasting models. As long as you are buying that extra expansion, it doesn't matter to them whether you can or can't use the extra model/card/dial/etc. in their packages. So yes, they are going to maximize profit, but they aren't trying to figure out how to make you purchase wasted materials.

*Note that Reanimates actually do have a 4x3 formation. If they're willing to do that for Reanimates, why don't we see that for other units? Don't you think they would sell more if other formations could be huge like that? Then there must be some other reason why units have different maximum sizes of formations. The other reason to do that would be theme and gameplay. I mean, why not have a Rune Golem formation of 9 trays? Then there would be no waste and they would sell an additional box of Rune Golems, which are more expensive than the other expansions. They didn't do that, so obviously something is holding them back from increasing profits that way, and that reason is gameplay.

TL;DR: Yes, sales model can affect design, but design also affects the sales model. You can't finish one before the other; they have to work together.

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Ok I can concede that. But the END result would not be selected if the business model wasn't flexible enough to make it the most profitable. OR they would re tool the cards to fit that most profitable business model based on play testing.

Either way, the most profitable approach is the one they picked, and whether they had to shoe horn the model or the game to fit this approach that is what they did.

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7 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

Ok I can concede that. But the END result would not be selected if the business model wasn't flexible enough to make it the most profitable. OR they would re tool the cards to fit that most profitable business model based on play testing.

Either way, the most profitable approach is the one they picked, and whether they had to shoe horn the model or the game to fit this approach that is what they did.

what most people dont usually take into account when they talk about companies doing things to maximize profits is that a company generally will maximize profits by satisfying the greatest number of people. 

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5 minutes ago, Klaxas said:

what most people dont usually take into account when they talk about companies doing things to maximize profits is that a company generally will maximize profits by satisfying the greatest number of people. 

QFT

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51 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Personally, my favorite aspect of the FFG business model is...

pie-icon.png.1219c4c92ecf3fa1df780af994322036.png

You can have your ... pie ... and eat it, too?

Though I think your point is that you can take as much as you want. You can buy max armies of every unit, or you can settle for a core-set experience and still get lots of hours of it. If that is your point, I agree!

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3 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

Ok so a play tester is privy to the business side of the model? I find that really, really hard to believe. And if anything this makes me believe him less, lol.

FFG and Asmodee flew down their execs to have an intimate meeting with him before he play tested the game to give him all the ins and outs of running a successful table top company? That's what happened?

Sounds legit.

 

Who's flying anywhere? Would you like me to take a picture next to the FFG and Asmodee NA signs next time I'm there? ;)

That being said, I do apologize for getting a bit... snarky. If you would like to learn more actual info about the game, swing by Chicago next weekend for adepticon. I would be happy to teach you all about it.

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