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The prices are outrageous

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Just now, jek said:

I feel like they base their prices on point cost...

Maybe, but what kills me is the price of HQ's.

For $30, you can get either 10 Cadian Shock Troops or 10 Boyz or... 1 Overlord.  The cost of sculpting the Boyz or the Troops has to be greater than the Overlord simply due to the number of options.  The Overlord doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of plastic, it has no extra options and is really on par with the rest of GW's stuff when it comes to the level of detail.

But I don't want to derail this into a GW suxs thread... 

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Just now, VanorDM said:

Maybe, but what kills me is the price of HQ's.

For $30, you can get either 10 Cadian Shock Troops or 10 Boyz or... 1 Overlord.  The cost of sculpting the Boyz or the Troops has to be greater than the Overlord simply due to the number of options.  The Overlord doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of plastic, it has no extra options and is really on par with the rest of GW's stuff when it comes to the level of detail.

But I don't want to derail this into a GW suxs thread... 

Oh I agree with you the pricing model they use is garbage.  But that is my point and HQ can be as many points as a unit of troops therefore in the GW logic it should cost the same, it shouldn't especially since GW HQ's can be non-unique and most OP is play as WYSIWYG so you will need multiple overlords or commanders in the long run...It is one of the reason I am selling all my GW stuff...

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9 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

You are naive if you don't think that the game was designed to fit into the sales model, not the other way around ;)

yes they set up the game as wanting to make money, those fiends.  However in the game design prospect the unit sizes would heavily be based off playtesting and balancing. If they were solely focused on get your money they would not do structured blocks and instead give you an individual model and let you build whatever shape of units you want.

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5 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

You are naive if you don't think that the game was designed to fit into the sales model, not the other way around ;)

Maybe you're just cynical... After all it is a rank and file game and as such the size and types of formations are already well known.  

That doesn't mean FFG won't maximize their selling potential, but that's simply what companies do, try to maximize their profits.  If you don't like it then don't play it.  But don't for a moment think FFG is unusual in how they price luxury items.  They are in fact one of the more reasonable companies when it comes to price.

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7 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Maybe you're just cynical... After all it is a rank and file game and as such the size and types of formations are already well known.  

That doesn't mean FFG won't maximize their selling potential, but that's simply what companies do, try to maximize their profits.  If you don't like it then don't play it.  But don't for a moment think FFG is unusual in how they price luxury items.  They are in fact one of the more reasonable companies when it comes to price.

How am I being cynical?  It was no accident that the rank and file ended up the way it did. Do you honestly believe it was just a coincidence that you would have to buy X number of packs to get to the maximize, with waste?

No where in there did I say they SHOULDN'T do this, I simply said that they did.

I am entitled to my opinion.. just because you disagree it doesn't make me a cynic.

If their pricing wasn't an issue this thread would not have reached page 13. But I guess everyone who thinks that is just a cynic? No no, that's not fair, I won't jump to conclusions like SOME people have ;)

Edited by FrogTrigger

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4 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

How am I being cynical?  It was no accident that the rank and file ended up the way it did.

Of course it wasn't, it was due to a whole host of reasons, and no doubt how they sell the game is part of that.  But how they sell the upgrade packs effects a ton of things, like how much shelf space is needed at a LGS, how many they need to stock, how many a player will need to build.

But that is again not the only reason and may not even be the main driving force behind it.  FFG makes good games and they're not going to base decisions like this purely on how to squeeze the last dime out of the players, which is what you you seem to be saying they're doing.  

Quote

No where in there did I say they SHOULDN'T do this, I simply said that they did.

Well since you called them greedy a few posts back... I'd say that's implying that they shouldn't do it, since greedy is pretty much always considered a bad thing.

Edited by VanorDM

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I stand by @VanorDM None of the decisions in packaging a game like this are made lightly, nor is this unique to this game... Thus far FFG has priced entrance into this game very reasonably compared to most miniature games on the market.  All of the decisions are done with play testing and balancing in mind not just Mr Monopoly sitting in the darkened board room rubbing his hands together trying to decide how to get the most of your money.  Do they want your money, yes! Are they trying to make a well balanced game that will be worth your money? yes! Calling a business greedy and saying most of their decisions are motivated by greed is what you did and it is akin to saying you disagree with their methods.  If you came into this expecting a board game then you should be in for a surprise.  Miniature games are not stand alone, unless you only ever plan on playing the same army with one other person.  Otherwise these do involve investing in an army to give you options to customize your force... And this post is 13 pages because there is a lot of cost analysis and discussion not just 13 pages of people complaining about price! 

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1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

You are naive if you don't think that the game was designed to fit into the sales model, not the other way around ;)

I assure you, 

A) I am not naive when it comes to business

B) I would bet I know a good bit more about this game than you do ;)

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12 minutes ago, jek said:

Thus far FFG has priced entrance into this game very reasonably compared to most miniature games on the market.

It's true of X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault, and true here... You always get a group of people complaining about the price of stuff, but those people seem to be completely clueless of just how cheap these games are compared to other offerings out there.

Sure you can spend a ton of money on them, and the way FFG does things isn't always the most consumer friendly, but a company only needs to be consumer friendly to a point.  It's not like they actually owe us anything for buying their products other than delivering on what they said was in the package we bought.

I mean you actually had someone here go on about the prices based on the material and where they were made, and made it clear that the price of the Game wasn't relevant, only the price of the models.

I've seen people complain about the prices based on the amount of plastic used to make the model itself, and how if it only costs 20 cents in materials it is "immoral" to charge $15 for a X-Wing... The price to produce, ship, design, print cards, development costs, ect... Not to mention some profit is completely lost on these people.

So the bottom line is this...

You can only fairly compare this game to other rank and file games with a similar model count, and then decide if the game costs too much.

The price per model, the price based on materials used, the price compared to green army men, ect... None of that really matters.  If you think this game costs to much, then show us a list of other rank and file games with a similar model count that costs less.  At which point I'll say that you should go play that game instead then.

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1 hour ago, FrogTrigger said:

You are naive if you don't think that the game was designed to fit into the sales model, not the other way around ;)

Have you considered their options?

Option 1: Sell individual trays of units per expansion pack.

Option 2: Sell multiple trays of units per expansion pack.

Between these two options, they have to choose the one that will maximize profits. They ask two questions: 1) How much are people willing to pay? 2) How many people will pay for it?

Question 1: How much are people willing to pay for a single tray of units? How much are people willing to pay for two trays of a unit? What size/cost of expansion would be reasonable for a brick-and-mortar game store to keep in stock? (It needs to be big enough to grab attention while still having sufficient content.) Price tends to go up for smaller packages, in small part due to the extra packaging requirements. It also means there is more variance in how much product needs to be moved.

Question 2: They also have to consider how many people will buy expansions. They must have figured that buying individual trays was not as attractive as buying two trays, so they would have fewer buyers, which would cut into profits. If more people are willing to buy 2 rune Golems per pack than 1 Rune Golem, they are maximizing profits. Another thing to consider is how people are getting their models. Some people will start with 2 cores or split a core with a friend. FFG has even encouraged this in their articles! So if you get two Rune Golems to start, then one expansion will put you to 4, which is the next formation size. If they buy 2 Rune Golem expansions, they can run the max size of 6 -- with no waste! But if these were sold individually, these players would be "forced" to buy two expansions to get to the next unit size. Seems that no matter what FFG does, somebody will complain.

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24 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

It's true of X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault, and true here... You always get a group of people complaining about the price of stuff, but those people seem to be completely clueless of just how cheap these games are compared to other offerings out there.

Imperial Assault campaign only requires the core, you can buy it and try it out and then see if you want to add more, great deal. But as far as the skirmish side goes, it is not reasonably priced. And considering you compared it to other skirmish based games and we are talking about this in a skirmish based forum I think it is fair that you should have to defend this point. You need the core and either every single expansion, or $75 worth of mats just to show up to a tournament. That's either $300 US whether you go the physical component or mat route. If you go the mat route your list will be much better, but you won't have nearly as many physical components and it will be a very specific list. And if you go the expansion route your list will be garbage. This is where IA's skirmish side has struggled, people don't buy IA to play skirmish, they buy it for the campaign and get sucked into the skirmish because it is awesome. It is a problem that all of us over on the IA forum hope FFG is working on.

As shown in this poll I did on the official IA forums:

Quote

When you bought your first IA core did you plan to play:

A) Campaign only (20) (32.8%)

B) Skirmish only (6) (9.8%)

C) Both equally (9) (14.8%)

D) Campaign but thought you'd try skirmish eventually (18) (29.5%)

E) Skirmish but thought you'd try campaign eventually (5) (8.2%)

F) What is Campaign and Skirmish? I just like Star Wars (3) (4.9%)

Summary:

62.3% of people bought this game with the campaign in mind, 29.5% of that number thought they would try skirmish.

18% of people bought this game with the skirmish in mind, 8.2% of those people thought they would try campaign.

14.8% of people bought the game to play campaign and skirmish equally.

In comparison, for X-Wing you can get in with $100 and a fairly competitive list, now THAT is a great price of entry.

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25 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'd also like to note that this thread has not gone on for 13 pages because the OP title is true or even hotly debated.

The topic was thrown out fairly quickly and since then we've been mostly just chatting in this thread.

my posts have been related to the OP, as have many of the others here. The price of the expansions is still an open discussion with comparisons to many other companies that make plastic miniatures.

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16 minutes ago, FrogTrigger said:

In comparison, for X-Wing you can get in with $100 and a fairly competitive list, now THAT is a great price of entry.

Yup they even did a few articles on that on the news, x-wing entry is $100 to play competitive with there FFG official 101 lists that will probably only actually cost you around 75-90 dollars.  Its great its fantastic except if you want to play one faction then you are buying models outside you faction if you want to get 1 card.  If you look at this game to get 1 faction the price is roughly $130...GASP! That is just so exorbitantly higher than your x-wing example I can't believe I mentioned it! WHY DID I BRING IT UP! I brought it up because your pricing method is ridiculous, yes to those of us that are planning on buying everything for a single faction we are going to drop 250ish for the game if you are planning on buying everything for both factions? 400ish.  But getting a 200 point list for OP only focusing on one faction it is around 130-150 because you don't need to buy every single expansion to make that list.  You talk about this going on for 13 pages, did you READ those 13 pages because this topic and explanation has been beat into the ground.   Buy a box pick a faction and trade with someone there you have 150ish points of one faction buy the command expansion and the expansion of which ever unit you like the most to beef it up and you will be at 200 points, you don't need every card or every expansion if you are making the argument against that then stop using the pick and chose x-wing model and look at how Armada launched... 

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40 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

my posts have been related to the OP, as have many of the others here. The price of the expansions is still an open discussion with comparisons to many other companies that make plastic miniatures.

Agreed, and didn't the price drop on those expansions since they were announced? Maybe some open discussion of peoples opinions isn't such a bad thing..

Same thing happened on the MoM forums when they announced their first expansion, the collective player base posted their opinions and within a few days the price dropped. 

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1 hour ago, Hidatom said:

my posts have been related to the OP, as have many of the others here. The price of the expansions is still an open discussion with comparisons to many other companies that make plastic miniatures.

I'm not disputing that.

I'm disputing the notion that this topic having 13 pages should be used as proof that the game is too expensive.

That's just reductive and misleading.

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7 hours ago, VanorDM said:

Maybe, but what kills me is the price of HQ's.

For $30, you can get either 10 Cadian Shock Troops or 10 Boyz or... 1 Overlord.  The cost of sculpting the Boyz or the Troops has to be greater than the Overlord simply due to the number of options.  The Overlord doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of plastic, it has no extra options and is really on par with the rest of GW's stuff when it comes to the level of detail.

But I don't want to derail this into a GW suxs thread... 

 

How is that 10 Shock Troops/1 Overlord pricing relation any different from the 8 Daqan Spearmen/1 Lord Hawthorne pricing relation? I know GW is the devil and can do nothing right, but come on.

Other than that, the actual pricing consideration, whether you're GW, FFG, Mantic or whomever, has to do with setting up the molds for casting your miniatures. The raw material cost difference between a unit and a single character is negligible. With the prevalance of CAD, the difference in expense between sculpting an individual character and a unit is likewise negligible. However, in order to produce any miniature, whether a grunt or a character, a company needs to shell out A LOT of money up-front for tooling and mold setup. For hard plastic miniatures like the ones GW makes, the up-front cost of setting up a mold, before you even start casting anything, is tens of thousands of dollars. Then you start producing and selling the model kit. While actual raw material (styrene plastic) might cost literal pennies, the up-front cost means that oftentimes it takes several years before that particular kit returns the investment and starts turning out actual profit.

The logic is that an average player will need/want to buy several boxes' worth of Shock Troops or Reanimates or any other grunts, but is likely to only ever buy one or two, if any at all, character models like the Overlord or Lord Hawthorne. But since all the kits had a similar high setup cost, the company has to set a higher price on the product that's expected to sell in smaller volumes, so that it still has any chance of returning the investment.

Edited by player1750031

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48 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

 

How is that 10 Shock Troops/1 Overlord pricing relation any different from the 8 Daqan Spearmen/1 Lord Hawthorne pricing relation? I know GW is the devil and can do nothing right, but come on.

Other than that, the actual pricing consideration, whether you're GW, FFG, Mantic or whomever, has to do with setting up the molds for casting your miniatures. The raw material cost difference between a unit and a single character is negligible. With the prevalance of CAD, the difference in expense between sculpting an individual character and a unit is likewise negligible. However, in order to produce any miniature, whether a grunt or a character, a company needs to shell out A LOT of money up-front for tooling and mold setup. For hard plastic miniatures like the ones GW makes, the up-front cost of setting up a mold, before you even start casting anything, is tens of thousands of 

As someone who has done a lot of research into mold tooling and miniature production I agree with you on the upfront cost. But my point is that pricing based on point cost is the model gw uses which can skew pretty far empire state troops had just as many options as a tactical squad but were 20-30 dollars different. And an overlord or empire general or space marine commander aren't unique troops do you will eventually end up getting more if you play competitive so they represent your list load out however Hawthorne and other heroes are unique so you will never need more than one. 

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I have to admit that i'm a little worried about expansions prices. I'm from Europe and if the core set usually come in our markets with pretty onest euro-conversion i've already see a lot of expansions from other games (descent, eldritch horror) reaching quite outrageus prices. Im worried about having to pay 40,00 euros or more for a little expansion.

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17 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

You are naive if you don't think that the game was designed to fit into the sales model, not the other way around ;)

Ok, I guess I have to spell it out to you. You're wrong. Period. The formations have nothing to do with the sales model, and everything to do with it being a rank and file game. You can keep trying to troll me, but it doesn't really work when I know for a fact you are wrong.

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1 hour ago, pella91 said:

I have to admit that i'm a little worried about expansions prices. I'm from Europe and if the core set usually come in our markets with pretty onest euro-conversion i've already see a lot of expansions from other games (descent, eldritch horror) reaching quite outrageus prices. Im worried about having to pay 40,00 euros or more for a little expansion.

Till now in Spain (Edge) the conversion is $1 to 1€, so the highest price till now is 35€ for Worms / Golems. I hope not to raise to much with future heroes, monsters or siege machines, anyway I'm not going to buy probably more than 1 expansion of each for just one army. So now the budget for the game is 100€ (double single faction content, changing the other faction with a friend) + 100€ (infantry, archers, hero, command) + 35€ (worms) with a discount of 20% the total is 188€. Not so expensive for a miniature game.

And I get: 16+16+8 reanimates, 8+8+8 archers, 3 worms, 2 heroes, 1 command group in total 73 miniatures if I don't make any mistakes.

(Anyway I'm still thinking that $25 per 1 hero or $25 per command group is expensive, infantry, cavalry and archers I feel better).

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31 minutes ago, Hijodecain said:

Till now in Spain (Edge) the conversion is $1 to 1€, so the highest price till now is 35€ for Worms / Golems. I hope not to raise to much with future heroes, monsters or siege machines, anyway I'm not going to buy probably more than 1 expansion of each for just one army. So now the budget for the game is 100€ (double single faction content, changing the other faction with a friend) + 100€ (infantry, archers, hero, command) + 35€ (worms) with a discount of 20% the total is 188€. Not so expensive for a miniature game.

And I get: 16+16+8 reanimates, 8+8+8 archers, 3 worms, 2 heroes, 1 command group in total 73 miniatures if I don't make any mistakes.

(Anyway I'm still thinking that $25 per 1 hero or $25 per command group is expensive, infantry, cavalry and archers I feel better).

Here in Italy we have a lot of issues with the local publisher "giochi uniti" , from 2017 FFG games will be published by Asmodee Italia ( born from the recent aquisition of the local Asterion press) and we will see if something are going to change. I hope for more onest conversions and faster publications. 

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