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Liher

The prices are outrageous

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This game has had my full attention since it was announced. I liked almost of it. And I thought that without an external IP to pay for, it could even be less expensive than previoous games. 

The yesterday announcement has left me in shock. One would think that the business model of a game is to create a large player base first and after try to profit. I think FFG has really missed a great chance.

I want to prove it with numbers. I am going to compare it with SW Armada.  A game from the same company that not many people would call too low priced. 

In the base Armada Game, we have a Victory, a Nebulon, a Corvette and 10 squadrons. If we try to buy them outside of the base game, it will cost you, base prices (40+20+20+25) 105 dollars. For that price you get all the basic stuff, dices, rules, markers, etc, and more than the base price in miniatures.

Now lets talk about Runewars. In the base box, you have five units with eight basic figures (aparently at 30 $ each), cavalry unit (30$), and 4 bigger figures, lets error in the safe side, 15$ each.  Thats 240$.  It is just crazy. 

And if we look at the figures, they are not great. The cavalry are all the same, no different arms or heads to play with.  Middle quality for absolutely premium prices. 

I was traying to move the local hype community. Trying to convince people to get into the game. The community is saturated with games, people play Xwing and Armada, some also Warmachine, Infinity, Mercs or Malifaux. Some have even stayed with Age of Sigmar. No way that we will be able to make it take off with this prices. 

PS. Forgive misspelings and errors, English is not my native language

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Game is actually relatively cheap to buy in 160 dollars and trading half of a core set will get you everything. 320 dollars will get you two full fledged armies. 
The command squads are expensive, that is due to unique sculpts/frequency of being bought which appears to be one per a player unless you decide to run 2 3x3 blocks of infantry. Hell it's hard to say that they are even expensive when I've paid 10 dollars for models with special weapons.  
I think people are blowing the scale of the game out of proportion and are assuming it's like 7th and 8th edition fantasy the number of units on the table and their point cost was so low it was absurd.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sanctuary said:

I think for what you get in the box £100 is a bargain.

I suspect that will be about £60-75 in the UK online. That sounds about the price I've paid for Imperial Assault and other big games.

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I agree that the box is a good deal. Its the difference between the box and the rest of the army what it is really too big. 

What about the Elves or the Uthuk?  Its going to be twice as expensive to build an army if there is no basic box for them. 

What is the reason to change so much the ratio between the basic box and the expansions from Armada to Runewars? 

I will definetively buy the basic box. Probably 2.  I will have points for 2 full armies with 2 pair of dices and all the basic stuff for the price that an elven player has not yet done building their first army. 

It does not make sense. 

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For me the price of the commanders if it is expensive, but I would like another box came out basic with elves and uthuk since the player who wants those factions will have to wait

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I think if you do the math on the $per percentage points of a full tournament army, you will find it's not terribly pricey compare to similar games.

Just need to get out of the collect them all mindset.

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I think FFG will do is bring out a starter army set for each of the 2 other armies at about $40-$60 range, that should be ok depending what you get in them to make it worth it for someone starting a new army.

I know from my GW day's that tabletop war games are not cheap to get in to and expand your armies, if FFG stay's with a 200 pt limit or even go to 300 pt's later on for tournament play it will still be cheaper then GW equivalent over all.

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Yeah a possible army bundle for each faction for a good price would be really appreciated! But we don't know if we have to get those expansion boxes also, because of the included upgrade cards!?

If its the typical sale model from FFG you have to get them all i think!? ... The prices of those expansion boxes drives me sad, i thought it would be much cheaper to get into the game after a purchased core set. :(

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It's more expensive than I would have expected, which is a bit disappointing. However, it's not at all beyond the pale compared to other miniatures games. Games Workshop is currently offering Age of Sigmar "winning army" bundles that range from about $350 to about $590. Mind you, that doesn't include the rulebooks, dice, tape measures, wound and condition markers, and terrain; all of which seem to be included in the Runewars core box.

X-Wing, which I consider to be the best value game on the market, is also sneakily expensive at retail prices. Here's the cost of some squadrons appearing at last year's world's

Dengar+Manaroo winning squadron: 254.63

Corran Horn + Miranda, 2nd place (just two small ships): $134.70

Palpatine + Countess Ryad + Colonel Vessery (the most common list in the top 16, next to Manaroo): 279.55

I realize everyone has to make their own decisions, and that we're all starting from different places in terms of expectations. But If I end up spending less than $400 for a full-scale, rank and file miniatures game I consider it a steal.

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4 minutes ago, Elrad said:

what do you mean by "steal" ? A steal for you or a steal for FFG ?

Like I said, it's a matter of perspective. Compared to its competition, it's a steal.

Now, if you play historical minis, you could make a fair argument that the price is ludicrous. Maybe it's ludicrous compared to some boardgames too, like Runewars or BattleLore.

Thank goodness that options exist for both of us!

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2 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Cheapest at the moment is Chaos Cards - £79.99

£75 on boardgameguru, one of a couple of companies I tend to make big orders from. Definitely not cheap but thankfully not £99 either.

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It's really no worse than xwing or imperial assault on a per model basis.  However, it is much worse on a practical basis and I think for me that's the issue since I have never had interest in other traditional non-ffg minis games. 

In xwing, I can buy a tie defender for 15 bucks and that's easily 1/3 of a squad.   In IA, I can spend the same on a pack of wookie warriors and have that be 1/4 of a skirmish army plus missions.   In this game, 30 bucks probably doesn't even get me 1/4 an army (admittedly this is an estimation based on spoiled cards so far noting that we don't know much about core set upgrades yet) which is a major shock coming from these other games. 

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I have no problem with the pricing.  It's right in line with what I was expecting.  I have a couple of thoughts here.  I'll be assuming that you have friends who are going to play and are only interested in collecting one faction.  These are pretty safe assumptions for someone starting out a new game.  I'm further assuming that a "full strength" force is approximately double what comes in the starter box for a given faction.  Lastly, I'll be making my comparisons against Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition.  I realize it's out of print, but you could easily swap in Warhammer 40k or Age of Sigmar and have more or less the same results.  I'm focusing on a comparison against market leaders.

1. You and a friend each buy a box for $99.95.  You then swap out the models with each other based on who wants which faction.  My buddy wants Daqan Lords.  I want Waiqar the Undying.  After we swap, I'll have a "full strength" Waiqar the Undying force, for only $99.95.  That's pretty cheap compared to most other rank and file miniatures war games out there.  Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition (or 40k) would have cost significantly more than than (MSRP) for the rules alone.  Adding models causes that buy in to sky rocket.

2. You now have AN army, having spent a total of $99.95, but after a couple of couple of months of playing, have decided that you want some options.  You really like how the skeleton soldier blob works, but would like them to be 'jazzed up' a bit, so you decide to purchase the Infantry Command box for $29.95.  You can now customize your army.  With all the new options, your skeleton soldier dudes feel like a new unit.  You're now at the $129.98 mark.  You're now around what you would have spent on Warhammer Fantasy (or 40k) rules.

3. A month or so later, you decide that you like the options your skeleton soldier dudes gained when you bought the Infantry Command box and decide that you'd like your skeleton archer dudes to also have more options.  You go ahead and pick up the skeleton archer dudes box for $29.95.  Your army now has even more build options.  You're now at the $159.97 mark.  If you were playing Warhammer Fantasy (or 40k), you'd have the rules and maybe one box of core troops.  You're still hundreds away from having an army in that system.

4. You've now spent the initial ~$100 buy in and then ~$60 over the course of the next quarter (3 months).  Your "hobby upkeep" cost to keep up with the new releases is ~$20/month.  This assumes that FFG will roughly the same amount of stuff for each faction each quarter.  I kind of doubt that will happen once the new factions are released.  Realistically, I expect more of an X-Wing or Armada releases schedule with one new item for your faction roughly 3-4 times per year.  Even if we do see ~$60 every three months, that's $20/month or about $5/week.

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't consider $5/month to be crazy expensive.  Heck, you could buy two of every expansion and you're up to a whopping $10/month.  As it stands, this game has a ~$100 buy in and is cheaper than eating at McDonald's once a week to maintain.

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2 minutes ago, Willange said:

It's really no worse than xwing or imperial assault on a per model basis.  However, it is much worse on a practical basis and I think for me that's the issue since I have never had interest in other traditional non-ffg minis games. 

In xwing, I can buy a tie defender for 15 bucks and that's easily 1/3 of a squad.   In IA, I can spend the same on a pack of wookie warriors and have that be 1/4 of a skirmish army plus missions.   In this game, 30 bucks probably doesn't even get me 1/4 an army (admittedly this is an estimation based on spoiled cards so far noting that we don't know much about core set upgrades yet) which is a major shock coming from these other games. 

I feel that competitively that argument doesn't work though...yes you CAN get a tie defender for 15 and that is 1/3 of your squads MODELS but you are most likely going to have upgrades on it that didn't come from the starter or the defender itself.  In Imperial Assault you buy the core which is the same price as this core, yes most people are planning on double core sets but if you focus only on one army you are still only going to have to BUY on core.  then it is only 1 or 2 expansions to get you 200pt army maybe not even depending on the upgrade cards in core. 

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6 minutes ago, Willange said:

It's really no worse than xwing or imperial assault on a per model basis.  However, it is much worse on a practical basis and I think for me that's the issue since I have never had interest in other traditional non-ffg minis games. 

In xwing, I can buy a tie defender for 15 bucks and that's easily 1/3 of a squad.   In IA, I can spend the same on a pack of wookie warriors and have that be 1/4 of a skirmish army plus missions.   In this game, 30 bucks probably doesn't even get me 1/4 an army (admittedly this is an estimation based on spoiled cards so far noting that we don't know much about core set upgrades yet) which is a major shock coming from these other games. 

Assuming that a "full strength" army is roughly twice what comes in the core set, buying a core set and trading with a friend will get you a full army for $100.  In that sense, ~$33 gets you 1/3 of a "squad". 

I think you're being a little disingenuous with your X-Wing comparison.  Everyone I know who plays X-Wing has a kajillion ships that they're never actually going to play with because they needed/wanted the upgrade cards.  In that sense, your TIE Defender w/Upgrades costs a lot more than $15.  If you're flying your ships with only the included upgrades, you'll likely find yourself at a competitive disadvantage.  Let's call a duck a duck...  X-Wing CAN be cheap, but almost never is as people buy lots of ships they'll never use.

 

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4 minutes ago, Taki said:

Ok, relooking at the prices, I don't think the rank and file is too bad, but I do think the commanders are far too expensive.

On the upside, you'll probably only buy one box of them.  In these sorts of games, commanders always cost more and contribute more to the game, but you need fewer of them.  You almost have to think of the pricing not as $/model, but as $/point.  I believe the two trays of Archers come to 18 points.  If the Infantry Command box also contributes ~18 points worth of models/upgrades, then the same cost is reasonable.  If it contributes only 5 points, it's not a good deal.  If it contributes 30, it's a steal.

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15 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

On the upside, you'll probably only buy one box of them.  In these sorts of games, commanders always cost more and contribute more to the game, but you need fewer of them.  You almost have to think of the pricing not as $/model, but as $/point.  I believe the two trays of Archers come to 18 points.  If the Infantry Command box also contributes ~18 points worth of models/upgrades, then the same cost is reasonable.  If it contributes only 5 points, it's not a good deal.  If it contributes 30, it's a steal.

I've never liked this model of business, not when GW did it, and not here.  I would prefer that they just give 2 of each, so I don't need to buy this for each infantry unit or wizard I want to put in play.

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20 minutes ago, Taki said:

I've never liked this model of business, not when GW did it, and not here.  I would prefer that they just give 2 of each, so I don't need to buy this for each infantry unit or wizard I want to put in play.

Maybe there is a rules limit on command units.

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29 minutes ago, Taki said:

I've never liked this model of business, not when GW did it, and not here.  I would prefer that they just give 2 of each, so I don't need to buy this for each infantry unit or wizard I want to put in play.

There's certainly a frustrating element to it. But there's a positive trade-off in that it's a business model that works great for a product that has a lot of expansions and a dynamic meta-game. Some people don't like dynamic meta either, but I do. So it's a good trade off for me, even though I recognize it doesn't work for everyone.

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34 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Maybe there is a rules limit on command units.

Command units can only be inserted into squads that have a sufficient formation size, as per the back of their card. As such you probably won't be needing many of these command packs because the points limit dictates that you won't be fielding many large formations in your army.

I'm also glad they aren't paired with the infantry squads because then you'd likely end up with too many for your army. This problem gets exasperated when the Daqan get archers, or heavy infantry etc as surely they too would then need the inclusion of the formation upgrade units?

 

Edit:

Actually, looking at the back of reanimates I suppose it is possible you may want a few musicians and standard bearers for your army if you aren't going for big squads. Although then the upgrades cost points so you will have a smaller army but it stands to reason you may want a few of these packs after all.

pic3127977_lg.jpg

Edited by Muz333

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