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Thinking about it, I'm not sure I like that heavily armored infantry has the same armor value as the archers.  I wonder if there are cards that make their armor count for more than the tissue that it currently counts as

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10 minutes ago, Taki said:

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I like that heavily armored infantry has the same armor value as the archers.  I wonder if there are cards that make their armor count for more than the tissue that it currently counts as

I'm sure I seen a 'master crafted armour' upgrade that added a defence. I'll try and see if I can find a photo.

Edit:

I can't find a photo so perhaps I was mistaken it for the 'master crafted weapons' or 'tempered steel'. Although I'm sure there will be some upgrade that adds armour.

Edited by Muz333

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3 hours ago, Taki said:

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I like that heavily armored infantry has the same armor value as the archers.  I wonder if there are cards that make their armor count for more than the tissue that it currently counts as

For cost and because of their ability to raise their armor by 1 while marching, The Daqan Spearmen has the most effective hp, against shooting in the game for their price outside of reanimates. With a difference of about a 1/5th of a point on model basis. Noticeably faster and with their modifier on their red attack one of the more effective units for damage.
This is with out cards. With Front line rune golem they blow a lot of things out of the way, except the two smallest squads of oathsworn calvary and and the two smallest rune golem squads when double bue is active. They tie with the 2 by 1 rune golem formation for effective HP and crush the calvary, while being some what fast and a really universal command wheel and modifier wheel.
I think Kari will be able to attach to them in the future, probably give them  an extra white die, which increase their output(IF it does) to the highest by measures, and a white die will also increase the chances of getting inspiration up more frequently which would you to repeatedly use some upgrade cards for some crazyness.
Daqan Spearmen are looking good in my book!

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13 hours ago, Obscene said:

For cost and because of their ability to raise their armor by 1 while marching, The Daqan Spearmen has the most effective hp, against shooting in the game for their price outside of reanimates. With a difference of about a 1/5th of a point on model basis. Noticeably faster and with their modifier on their red attack one of the more effective units for damage.
This is with out cards. With Front line rune golem they blow a lot of things out of the way, except the two smallest squads of oathsworn calvary and and the two smallest rune golem squads when double bue is active. They tie with the 2 by 1 rune golem formation for effective HP and crush the calvary, while being some what fast and a really universal command wheel and modifier wheel.
I think Kari will be able to attach to them in the future, probably give them  an extra white die, which increase their output(IF it does) to the highest by measures, and a white die will also increase the chances of getting inspiration up more frequently which would you to repeatedly use some upgrade cards for some crazyness.
Daqan Spearmen are looking good in my book!

Yes but they still effectively have the same health per base as the reanimate archers.

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When they are marching in to engage the reanimate archers they have effectively twice as much health because of their armor increase on blue. It doesn't have to be a literal +1 health for guys to thematically represent trained infantry versus reanimated skeletons. If design was strictly limited to +1 health armor or dice to express increased ferocity of the warrior in question; that would be quite boring.
Compare their wheel to reanimates, one displays that of a slow moving horde of bones, the other is a force of soldiers trained to execute many maneuvers with precision. I consider it a plus that this was simulated beyond just quantitative values. If you look at a lot of units, you can tell they tried very hard to make these units behave in a way that is extremely thematically pleasing. 

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8 minutes ago, Obscene said:

If you look at a lot of units, you can tell they tried very hard to make these units behave in a way that is extremely thematically pleasing. 

I like that the cavalry is very quick to charge but once engaged in combat they don't have the same speed advantage.

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4 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

Yes but they still effectively have the same health per base as the reanimate archers.

I mean... people are squishy. Real squishy, and real delicate, so you strap them with armor and all that really does is make them slightly less likely to die immediately.

Reanimated skeletons are less likely to do things like get the wind knocked out of them, or take a cut to a vital area.

I can logically see those two things balancing out into a common toughness.

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1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

I mean... people are squishy. Real squishy, and real delicate, so you strap them with armor and all that really does is make them slightly less likely to die immediately.

Reanimated skeletons are less likely to do things like get the wind knocked out of them, or take a cut to a vital area.

I can logically see those two things balancing out into a common toughness.

Lot more to break on flesh and blood human than a skeleton.  Also, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the reanimates aren't just "puppeted" skeletons like most settings have, but are actually the spirits of the original soldiers raised into new frames again and again, like 40k Thousand Sons.  If that's the case, they've got centuries of combat experience and are more magical constructs than physical creatures.

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20 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

I mean... people are squishy. Real squishy, and real delicate, so you strap them with armor and all that really does is make them slightly less likely to die immediately.

Reanimated skeletons are less likely to do things like get the wind knocked out of them, or take a cut to a vital area.

I can logically see those two things balancing out into a common toughness.

Yeah... No.  I can tell you armor is a game changer, it stops a Lot of damage.  The problem wiht the set up here isn't that undead are really tough, the question will be, what do human archers look like?  if they have the same stats as the spearmen (and I can't see them going lower) then the armor the spearman is wearing does nothing.  This breaks verisimilitude and is also kind of poor design.  If all that fully covering armor does is give them the option to get one armor pip from the right order dial, and even then only under certain circumstances, I think that's a little stupid.  Don't get me wrong, I really like a lot about the game as I've seen it, but that small part irks me.

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4 hours ago, Taki said:

Yeah... No.  I can tell you armor is a game changer, it stops a Lot of damage.  The problem wiht the set up here isn't that undead are really tough, the question will be, what do human archers look like?  if they have the same stats as the spearmen (and I can't see them going lower) then the armor the spearman is wearing does nothing.  This breaks verisimilitude and is also kind of poor design.  If all that fully covering armor does is give them the option to get one armor pip from the right order dial, and even then only under certain circumstances, I think that's a little stupid.  Don't get me wrong, I really like a lot about the game as I've seen it, but that small part irks me.


As someone who has spent a great deal of time studying the subject, I'd love to know how specifically you disagree with me.

Humans are vulnerable to a shocking number of fatal blows to a wide variety of soft areas that require so much flexibility actually armoring them is nigh impossible. Armpits, crotches, necks, etc. not to mention blunt force trauma to the head. You can armor these places, but you can never armor them *well* and still maintain range of movement, and someone who can't move will still die to a more nimble opponent who can pick his shots at leisure.

Hit a living person basically *anywhere* and there are numerous things that could happen, including debilitation, death, or unconsciousness. This is the issue with any sufficiently complex machine, and we are certainly that. Maille, armor plates, hardened leather, splints, gambesons and padding serve to distribute the force of a blow across a large surface area where possible, making the easiest to land blows like blows to the chest, legs, and head less likely to be fatal or debilitating (in the case of a helm, it also adds weight to the head making displacement more difficult and thus concussion and neck injury less likely). 

This doesn't make a human into an unassailable tank, it just makes them *slightly* less likely to die to an errant, unaimed blow.

Now, what could possibly be better than having vulnerable points and armoring them? How about *not having any vulnerable points in the first place*?

A walking skeleton with no vital organs, that feels no pain, that can't suffer a concussion, can't bleed out, and will keep fighting until they are mechanically disassembled. Logically speaking, they would be a much, *much* more difficult target to "wound" than even the most heavily armored human. You can't wind them, they don't feel pain, you can't do anything other than physically smash them to pieces (and interestingly, they are *still* wearing armor, making even the act of smashing them to pieces more difficult). Humans are even vulnerable to non-fatal blows; technically if you cut off a man's hand he theoretically *could* keep fighting, but it's far more likely that he will go into shock and either suffer another blow or bleed out. I don't think skeletons go into shock.

It's not that the armor of the spearman does nothing, it's that the armor of the spearman takes them from "will die the first time someone stabs at them" to "will probably survive a hit or two" which is right on par with both skeletons and, depending on how they're modeled, most arrow-wielding skirmishers. But then, we don't really know much about how the human archers will be balanced, and of course there are several modifiers for the spearmen to take into account, like the armor buff when marching, I assume attributed to their shields being readied ahead of them.

Again, humans are squishy. Very, VERY squishy.

Edited by Tvayumat

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To go along with the excellent post above me.
Armor/Health and any combination of it can be represented by the ability to shrug off non grievous wounds. a 1 health 1 armor skeleton and a 1 health 1 armor spear men possess many different combat abilities that was summarized fairly well. This goes along with archers as well, who while might being carrying way less armor, are much more adept at dodging a blow. These values, like in any other game, are not absolute representations of a units strengths and weakness in realistic portrayal because it's only two values. It would take a dozen of stat lines to present a realistic portrayal of their combat capabilities in the most accurate sense. It should be assumed that in a relative sense, that an undead archer, footman, and a trained soldier have about the same general defensive abilities as a whole, when you account for all of their strengths and weaknesses. 

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Archers adept at dodging blows? Lol, when you're in a formation there is no room to dodge and when a melee unit manages to attack archers the result is a massacre, because archers do not have armour, defensive equipment like shields, do not carry proper weapons nor are trained to use them. They are also not used to being attacked, so will break and flee easily.

Well-designed armour can stop a lot, a shieldwall can become an impenetrable wall if done right and spearmen would have the training, constitution and stamina to use their armour to maximum effect and hold the line even when injured. After all, they're the guy who are expected to take the brunt of the enemy charge, to break their momentum and grind them down.

I agree with @Taki that having these heavily armoured guys have the minimum damage resistance possible is a bad idea and will break immersion when completely unarmoured archers will have exactly the same resilience...

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Well guys, I'm hesitating in how to join your conversation about armor. I rechecked all the information related to the question : the daqan spearmen have the same armor as the undead archers. Ok. To me, there will be a good lore problem if daqan archers do have the same armor as undead archer and in regard of what has been said above by all of you : a human is not supposed to compete with an undead in matter of wounds and handicap. An undead will always try to hit you even if it has only half a chest and a third of his right arm. Go try it with a human how well-armored he could be. So to me, heavy soldiers and skeletons are on the same level of resistance. But, I agree with Taki and Costi to say that it shocks me a bit to see that an archer unit is treated as equally resistant as a fully armored one. Nevertheless, regarding what I think on the other side, I think i find myself according to both your positions : in regard for the lore and the logic of the fact : I don't see both unit having the same armor as a problem ; but in regard for the pure gameplay : I must admit that I'm a bit surprised. Maybe the spearmen do have an upgrade but even if it is true, the fact that you must play a card to activate it is a bit surprising... but I might be wrong along the line.

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Well in most franchises containing undead and skeletons they are a kind of lowly horde grunt that doesn't do much damage and isn't that hard to take down and it seems it's the same here, many franchises though also have better more elite versions like the Grave Guard for the Vampire Counts and the Tomb Guard for Khemri in WHF, so we might see better skeletons here.

Edited by Iceeagle85

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5 hours ago, Tvayumat said:


As someone who has spent a great deal of time studying the subject, I'd love to know how specifically you disagree with me.

Humans are vulnerable to a shocking number of fatal blows to a wide variety of soft areas that require so much flexibility actually armoring them is nigh impossible. Armpits, crotches, necks, etc. not to mention blunt force trauma to the head. You can armor these places, but you can never armor them *well* and still maintain range of movement, and someone who can't move will still die to a more nimble opponent who can pick his shots at leisure.

Hit a living person basically *anywhere* and there are numerous things that could happen, including debilitation, death, or unconsciousness. This is the issue with any sufficiently complex machine, and we are certainly that. Maille, armor plates, hardened leather, splints, gambesons and padding serve to distribute the force of a blow across a large surface area where possible, making the easiest to land blows like blows to the chest, legs, and head less likely to be fatal or debilitating (in the case of a helm, it also adds weight to the head making displacement more difficult and thus concussion and neck injury less likely). 

This doesn't make a human into an unassailable tank, it just makes them *slightly* less likely to die to an errant, unaimed blow.

Now, what could possibly be better than having vulnerable points and armoring them? How about *not having any vulnerable points in the first place*?

A walking skeleton with no vital organs, that feels no pain, that can't suffer a concussion, can't bleed out, and will keep fighting until they are mechanically disassembled. Logically speaking, they would be a much, *much* more difficult target to "wound" than even the most heavily armored human. You can't wind them, they don't feel pain, you can't do anything other than physically smash them to pieces (and interestingly, they are *still* wearing armor, making even the act of smashing them to pieces more difficult). Humans are even vulnerable to non-fatal blows; technically if you cut off a man's hand he theoretically *could* keep fighting, but it's far more likely that he will go into shock and either suffer another blow or bleed out. I don't think skeletons go into shock.

It's not that the armor of the spearman does nothing, it's that the armor of the spearman takes them from "will die the first time someone stabs at them" to "will probably survive a hit or two" which is right on par with both skeletons and, depending on how they're modeled, most arrow-wielding skirmishers. But then, we don't really know much about how the human archers will be balanced, and of course there are several modifiers for the spearmen to take into account, like the armor buff when marching, I assume attributed to their shields being readied ahead of them.

Again, humans are squishy. Very, VERY squishy.

Yeah, not for nothing but I've also done a hell of a lot of research on the same subject.  If armor was just as good as not wearing it, which is the specific example I used between HUMAN archer and HUMAN spearman, than we as a humans would not have universally spent a huge amount of resources, effort, thought and development in armor.  While the specific examples you give are correct, about target placement, they don't take into account the difficulty that armor creates in picking those shot.  Good luck for example trying to hit me in the armpit in a fight, I've trained enough to not let that be easy.  That's not even discussing the absolutely random nature of missiles, and that they're heavily mitigated my armor and shields (as hundreds of cultures around the world can attest historically).

This game as far as I can tell, either assumes that armor is negligible, or simply provides a shield on the right dial under certain circumstance.  That doesn't do it justice.  But perhaps I'm wrong, maybe they're not actually wearing armor and those plates are made of cardboard.  

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In fairness, in a world with Rune Golems, Skeleton Warriors and Archers, Carrion Lancers, and duel wielding, bow wielding lightly armored, nimble elf loving warrioresses with 3x the armor and 4x the wounds as the aforementioned heavily armored Spearmen, sometimes you just gotta suspend your disbelief.  The Spearmen, although modeled to look like an organized, trained ,fighting force (and their abilities match) are the Daqan "light infantry".  They have one wound like almost every light infantry in every miniature game ever made.  I'm sure we will see heavy infantry, and I'm sure their armor will look much more bulky.  

So, I understand and agree with the fact that it is "unrealistic" to have shielded, armored warriors with the same armor and wound count as leather wearing archers.  That said, I think the Spearmen/Daqan archer problem has to get in a long line behind all of the other "unrealistic" stuff that is routinely abstracted in our toys for the sake of having the models look cool while still having the desired gameplay.  

I am not saying your pet peeve is irrational by the way.  I have my own.  Why does the normal rank and file troops apparently have blue lacquered and gold gilded armor as standard issue.  Lacquered armor was made by processing poison, was extremely expensive, and took tons of time to create.  Gold gilding, in addition to needing GOLD, was done by processing deadly mercury.  Very few people that did it, did it very long before dying to Mercury toxicity.  Only the most rich and important would have access to true colored armor like they show in the pictures, and it probably meant a couple people died making it.  This has been bothering me since the day the game was announced.  I am toying with using with color schemes where at least all of the normal rank and file armor is silver, with blue/yellow cloaks to keep the same general look and feel but make it look at least a little bit more realistic.  

Just pointing this out because I am not minimizing your concern on the spearman/archer thing...i get it...but sometimes looking cool is better than looking realistic.

Edited by Oloh

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Spearmen and Archers are your typical mooks from which you draw a base line (i.e. defense of 1 and health of 1). Other units get that extra armor/health for special qualities over our cannon fodder.

Spearmen and Reanimates do get defense modifiers when they perform special actions. These actions could be seen as performing an abstract action like raising shields. Performing the right action at the right time is paramount for Runewars and moving that extra defense to dial just seems like the perfect way to incentivize the player.

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2 hours ago, Taki said:

 If armor was just as good as not wearing it, which is the specific example I used between HUMAN archer and HUMAN spearman, than we as a humans would not have universally spent a huge amount of resources, effort, thought and development in armor.  While the specific examples you give are correct, about target placement, they don't take into account the difficulty that armor creates in picking those shot.  Good luck for example trying to hit me in the armpit in a fight, I've trained enough to not let that be easy.

That doesn't really follow.

All armor has to do, to make it worth investing in, is make death *slightly* less likely. Given that the option is either being dead/mortally wounded or NOT being dead/mortally wounded, literally ANY development along those lines would be worth the time and effort even if it's only increasing survivability by a narrow margin.

Furthermore, the remarks about armpits, necks, internal joints, and the like has nothing to do with targetting or how well trained someone is. It was mentioned because they exist on living humans, and quite simply DO NOT exist on animated human skeletons.

Regardless, I think this tangent has gotten pretty far off topic at this point.

Suffice to say that infantry in general having a baseline 1 damage threshold as an abstract combination of their armor and evasion is a perfectly fine standard. Frankly, it's a reassuring standard. I hate when games make the baseline for a statistic involve too many digits.
 

54 minutes ago, Oloh said:

Why does the normal rank and file troops apparently have blue lacquered and gold gilded armor as standard issue.  Lacquered armor was made by processing poison, was extremely expensive, and took tons of time to create.  Gold gilding, in addition to needing GOLD, was done by processing deadly mercury.  Very few people that did it, did it very long before dying to Mercury toxicity.  Only the most rich and important would have access to true colored armor like they show in the pictures, and it probably meant a couple people died making it.  This has been bothering me since the day the game was announced.  I am toying with using with color schemes where at least all of the normal rank and file armor is silver, with blue/yellow cloaks to keep the same general look and feel but make it look at least a little bit more realistic.  


While I always applaud a love for history, it's worth pointing out that *painted* armor was quite common, as was latten (brass) detailing. That's not to say that the armor in RuneWars is historically accurate, but then I don't suspect that was ever the goal of a game involving, as you say, animated skeletons and rune golems.

Edited by Tvayumat

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43 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

While I always applaud a love for history, it's worth pointing out that *painted* armor was quite common, as was latten (brass) detailing. That's not to say that the armor in RuneWars is historically accurate, but then I don't suspect that was ever the goal of a game involving, as you say, animated

I could get behind these troops being light infantry with painted wooden armor, rare as that was it did happen.  I will be waiting to see what future units look like, but it's a pet peeve that I think is going to stick.

 

45 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Suffice to say that infantry in general having a baseline 1 damage threshold as an abstract combination of their armor and evasion is a perfectly fine standard. Frankly, it's a reassuring standard. I hate when games make the baseline for a statistic involve too many digits.

I dislike it when we sacrifice realism for game mechanics, but there is enough about this game that I like already that I'll give it a try.  I don't agree that it's a perfectly fine standard.  But I'll reserve judgement until I play the game.  What I've seen so far though is that the butchers bill piles up fast.

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Hum... guys, we are in a light fantasy minis game, here, not in a representation of a 17th century clash during Louis XIV's wars. The point of historical accuracy is here a bit irrelevant, no ? I'm not gonna buy and play this game for its realistic aspect, just to have fun.

I kind of admire your interest in real armies equipments and paintings but as an historian, I never felt interested by military aspects, or at least not the so technical ones. But I understand the need for some realism in such a game. We'll see how it really works once in hands. 

 

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On 1/2/2017 at 10:44 PM, Budgernaut said:

That's an ... odd change. But a welcome one! With the amount of figures we'll be buying, those $5 would add up over time. I wonder if it was a response to people online, or if it was a legitimate mistake, like some miscommunication between the retail section and webmaster.

This thing is seriously bad. In the last months it happened already several times that a product was announced, people got pissed by the price tag and the price tag was mysteriously lowered afterwards (happened with all the expansions of the first wave for RuneBound, that were lowered by 5 bucks each; and happened with the first box expansion for Mansions of Madness, that was lowered from 39.99 to 29.99).

This is not a professional behaviour. The only thing I get from this is that the company "tries" to see if they could earn more, and when people get pissed, they think they "tried too hard" to cash their profits. In the end, they keep damaging the image they project in this way.

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You can't blame a company for making a profit. It's people's salaries we're in part talking about there. Yes we should strive to keep them honest and not buy when it's unreasonable, but whining about unprofessional lowering of prices is a bit far out?

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2 hours ago, Corto said:

You can't blame a company for making a profit. It's people's salaries we're in part talking about there. Yes we should strive to keep them honest and not buy when it's unreasonable, but whining about unprofessional lowering of prices is a bit far out?

First of all, no one is whining. These items are games and thus are completely unneeded for normal life. There's no reason to whine.

Second, no one said it's unfair for them trying to make profit of their games (it would be idiotic stating the opposite: they are a company producing stuff and they have all the rights to gain on their products). And don't start with "people salaries": the company profits are constantly increasing (according to the projection shown every year at GenCon), so that there's certainly no one having salary problems due to the price tags of products.

I said it's not professional saying "I want XX dollars" and then saying "Hey, I want XX-Y dollars since the other price seemed too high". If this thing happens once, it's not a problem, could be a honest mistake. When the thing is repeated often over time (we're talking of 11 price tags that were lowered in about 1 year) it seems that either they don't know how to use proper marketing tools, or they are trying to understand how big their speculation margin is.

Pair this with all what happened after the company entered the Asmodee group: the declarations done about their will to raise prices so that people will stop collecting games and start picking up those that will be actually played (declaration done by Andrew Torres back in 2016), their policy on on-line marketing vs brick & mortar shops, the abolition of a standard ISBN code so that a lot of shops dropped their lines (biggest name on the market: Bookdepository.com is not selling anything new released by FFG) and so on. All what happened after they were acquired by Asmodee resulted in prices skyrocketting, not only in terms of "new stuff with a higher price tag", but also in terms of "less stuff in a box that costs the same", or "lower quality" (see deluxe boxes for LCGs or the horrible rulebooks released as of late - see Mansions of Madness 2.0 rules where in order to answer the question "does light go through doors" you have only to cross-reference 4 different entries on the reference guide), or "discount prices you can find on-line". Not to mention they started producing collectible card games. All of these spells like they are grabbing as much cash as possible & cutting costs as much as possible, and this will inevitably result in customers being pissed off by their behaviour.

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@Julia You seem to know FFG well to be able to make such a statement about their business transformation.  But I'm not a constant follower of FFG myself. Always fluttering around a game or another from different horizons (pc games, console games, board games, non games, no life activities, mass murder activities, shopping activities... Oh sorry i lost myself somewhere on the road).

So, allow me to say that what you say is quite worrying to me. I'm the kind to quickly feel worry than having some time to cool down. I will take the example of the preview articles for this game we're talking about : at sometimes I feel a bit lack of clearness, but maybe it is due to the fact that we don't have the rules at hand to figure the big picture out ?... don't know.

But my best time record to understand the rules of a game  is with War of the Rings second edition from aresgames. Wow took me 5 days to master the rules before playing it. Because they go on explaining you a concept on page 3 but it's lacking three infos found two, then three, than seven pages after... a complete puzzle for rules that were simple to figure out if clearly presented.

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