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Just so people can cool it about command attachments being expensive:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sylvaneth-Branchwraith
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Grimwrath-Berserker
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ogrid-Thaumaturge
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/warlocks/madrak-ironhide-world-ender
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/kriel-warrior-standard-bearer-piper
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/northkin-fire-eaters

Yes, it's terribly expensive compared to playing games with out models. Compared to games with models, it's not. The command squad comes out to 7.50 per a model. While expensive, models tend to be expensive. It's a reasonable price for a box of 4 unique models that you will more than likely only buy once, twice for some extreme skew strategy.  Totally within the realm of a reasonable purchase for this type of game. 

 

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I totally get comparing this game to other miniature games... but why do we have to?  Can't we just compare it to what people find reasonable?  Command units will be more expensive because they will sell less and they will need to recoup them.  Personally, I was hoping they could break from the mould.  If we want to compare it to what I believe is an actually comparable game (GW is the top of the industry in model quality), we could look at Mantic... you get FAR more for your money in terms of quantity of models.  Is it actually comparable though?  Does it matter?  I am looking at this game on its own and in comparison to my wallet.  I was hoping it would be cheaper.  

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47 minutes ago, Obscene said:

Just so people can cool it about command attachments being expensive:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sylvaneth-Branchwraith
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Grimwrath-Berserker
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ogrid-Thaumaturge
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/warlocks/madrak-ironhide-world-ender
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/kriel-warrior-standard-bearer-piper
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/northkin-fire-eaters

Yes, it's terribly expensive compared to playing games with out models. Compared to games with models, it's not. The command squad comes out to 7.50 per a model. While expensive, models tend to be expensive. It's a reasonable price for a box of 4 unique models that you will more than likely only buy once, twice for some extreme skew strategy.  Totally within the realm of a reasonable purchase for this type of game. 

 

For me the differance comes down to quality. Would I buy any of those for just the joy of painting them? Yes, I would and have. Would I buy any of the Runewars ones just for the joy of painting them? No, not one of the announced ones. 

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1 hour ago, C6248 said:

No? You can't affix them permanently as trays lose soldiers as squads take damage.

No way I'm going to do that if I paint my minis. I'll simply use tokens until a whole tray can be removed

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7 minutes ago, Babyblue said:

For me the differance comes down to quality. Would I buy any of those for just the joy of painting them? Yes, I would and have. Would I buy any of the Runewars ones just for the joy of painting them? No, not one of the announced ones. 

I'm not really arguing the extreme level of quality that can be found in GW's minis, but I can argue the factor of cost is well and above much higher, which is the primary point.
From what I know of the rules, compared to GW's rules, its also a much cleaner and elegant system.
However, if price point isn't a issue and the game system, I would agree that GW takes the cake as far as miniature quality goes. 

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49 minutes ago, TheBoulder said:

I totally get comparing this game to other miniature games... but why do we have to?  Can't we just compare it to what people find reasonable?  Command units will be more expensive because they will sell less and they will need to recoup them.  Personally, I was hoping they could break from the mould.  If we want to compare it to what I believe is an actually comparable game (GW is the top of the industry in model quality), we could look at Mantic... you get FAR more for your money in terms of quantity of models.  Is it actually comparable though?  Does it matter?  I am looking at this game on its own and in comparison to my wallet.  I was hoping it would be cheaper.  

Comparative cost analysis is a valid argument here though since the complaint is cost, and if you create come up with an idea on what this SHOULD cost without comparing it to other similar games then you create an unfounded argument.  But I'll turn my attention to Mantic games since they are another lower entry cost game.  I don't feel like repeating my previous math for Daqaan but the end result was cost for a 200pt army is 130 with 2 starters and a batch of knights, or 160 with 2 starters a batch of knights and the command.

KINGS OF WAR TIME!

I went with dwarfs here. and did a little bit of research on Organized play. they do games of either 1500 or 2000pt games. My knowledge of this game is limited to it's name and it looks very similar to WHF in list building and armies and such.

This was easy we start with the Dwarf Mega Force! when creating this point list I used the most expensive options when it came to units that could be multiple things which I believe were only the Ironwatch and Cannons here is the contents description from Mantic:

This set contains 144 multi-part plastic Dwarf miniatures, including:

40 Ironclad 1 unit 40 models 180pt

30 Ironwatch 1 unit 10 models 115pt 1 unit 20 models 155pt

30 Shieldbreakers 1 unit 10 models 90pts 1 unit 20 models 130pts

20 Bulwarkers 1 unit 20 models 150pts

10 Brock Riders 1 unit 10 models 210pts

1 Bombard with Crew 110pts

3 Ironbelcher Cannons/Organ Guns with Crew 110pts/cannon

Warsmith with optional components 85pts

Square Bases

Models supplied unassembled and unpainted.

 

Cost $140-160 on ebay Points as stated with the above criteria 1565 you could increase this amount by breaking each unit into its smallest components my point cost breakdown is added in blue.  This is a great deal(based on no knowledge of this game) and its entry point to the small tier tournament is the cost of the box which I around the same cost as Runewars splitting 2 core boxes.  Mantic is nice in that they post their rules online, however if you want most units or models outside of the starter models/units you have to buy their book which is between 20-30.  So I would say they are RW and Kings of War is a similar price point, with Kings have a higher model count based on the army I chose.  I don't know if you can get to 2000 points with upgrades to the models in this force if you can then cool if you can't then it will probably be an additional $50... but the isn't much in the grand scheme of mini games.  And to me the models look like similar quality in detail of the sculpts.  Also we are yet to see what material FFG uses for this game.  I would be surprised if it is the same plastic used in their board games. 

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Quality post ^
Personally, I think the miniatures look better than KoW. I think they carry with them a certain high fantasy feel with a bit of exaggeration to help the details pop for painting. Compared to GW's ultradark, or some other companies extremely realistic sculpts.

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Sorry, but I've collected miniatures for 29 years, and these figures don't merit their price even with the card and tray support they put in the blisters.  In all honesty, they've just entered the point where it's economically feasible for china to make knock offs of the figures and trays, hell, I have a 3d printer coming , I can print out those trays myself and use descent models.  They have to do better than these prices

 

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15 minutes ago, Obscene said:

I'm not really arguing the extreme level of quality that can be found in GW's minis, but I can argue the factor of cost is well and above much higher, which is the primary point.
From what I know of the rules, compared to GW's rules, its also a much cleaner and elegant system.
However, if price point isn't a issue and the game system, I would agree that GW takes the cake as far as miniature quality goes. 

I would say that Corvus Belli takes the top spot for miniature quality. They work in metal, though, which allows much finer details.

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2 minutes ago, Obscene said:

I'm not really arguing the extreme level of quality that can be found in GW's minis, but I can argue the factor of cost is well and above much higher, which is the primary point.
From what I know of the rules, compared to GW's rules, its also a much cleaner and elegant system.
However, if price point isn't a issue and the game system, I would agree that GW takes the cake as far as miniature quality goes. 

I should have stated quality compared to cost. I'm willing to pay top dollar for interesting, fun to paint minis, not for standard skeltons with no options (not even for GW ones, wich cost about $2 per mini).

I have a low impulse controle and might end up getting a core, but I reserve my judgement of the gaming system if or when I have played it. So far it just remindes me of X-wing.

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1 minute ago, costi said:

I would say that Corvus Belli takes the top spot for miniature quality. They work in metal, though, which allows much finer details.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly, and if this were a skirmish game, Infinity would be my go to for comparative analysis because it is low cost of entry to a COMPETITIVE level with, (forgetting the launch models because they were super meh) some of the most beautiful models in any miniature game.  Their rule book needs an index though =P

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1 hour ago, costi said:

No way I'm going to do that if I paint my minis. I'll simply use tokens until a whole tray can be removed

well...that's not how the game works...so I guess you will just be playing friendly games.

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36 minutes ago, costi said:

I would say that Corvus Belli takes the top spot for miniature quality. They work in metal, though, which allows much finer details.

we are going to disagree again.
Knight Models (Batman and Harry Potter Miniatures), Red Republic games (Arena Rex), and Malifaux all have amazing sculpts. I am a big fan of of N3 and would put CB's sculpts right up there with them...but not better.

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3 hours ago, Obscene said:

Just so people can cool it about command attachments being expensive:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sylvaneth-Branchwraith
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Grimwrath-Berserker
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Ogrid-Thaumaturge
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/warlocks/madrak-ironhide-world-ender
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/kriel-warrior-standard-bearer-piper
http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/northkin-fire-eaters

Yes, it's terribly expensive compared to playing games with out models. Compared to games with models, it's not. The command squad comes out to 7.50 per a model. While expensive, models tend to be expensive. It's a reasonable price for a box of 4 unique models that you will more than likely only buy once, twice for some extreme skew strategy.  Totally within the realm of a reasonable purchase for this type of game. 

 

Yes other games are also expensive but just to be correct, the GW miniatures you are linking to are heroes (wich have always have been expensive), comand units are included in the infantry (champion, musician and standardbearer, magicians and necromancers would be heroes) boxes you can build them or not just like you wish.

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1 hour ago, Hidatom said:

we are going to disagree again.
Knight Models (Batman and Harry Potter Miniatures), Red Republic games (Arena Rex), and Malifaux all have amazing sculpts. I am a big fan of of N3 and would put CB's sculpts right up there with them...but not better.

Knight Models though seem to have problems with quality control, overall my miniatures are good, exception is my Star Lord miniature, there was so much excess stuff on his hand that is holding the ball it was hard to see what are fingers and what is just casting stuff and i have heard worse in many different places though i have never seen pictures of it.

Red Republic i don't know, but Malifaux minis are great and Mierce miniatures look gorgeous too and i personally like the Warth of Kings miniatures.

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18 minutes ago, Iceeagle85 said:

Yes other games are also expensive but just to be correct, the GW miniatures you are linking to are heroes (wich have always have been expensive), comand units are included in the infantry (champion, musician and standardbearer, magicians and necromancers would be heroes) boxes you can build them or not just like you wish.

GW does include the option to build the champion, musician, and standard in their units true, other games like Warmahordes do make them extra typically.  However I see the Command unit for RuneWars as more the army commander not just a unit commander...

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2 hours ago, jek said:

Comparative cost analysis is a valid argument here though since the complaint is cost, and if you create come up with an idea on what this SHOULD cost without comparing it to other similar games then you create an unfounded argument.  But I'll turn my attention to Mantic games since they are another lower entry cost game.  I don't feel like repeating my previous math for Daqaan but the end result was cost for a 200pt army is 130 with 2 starters and a batch of knights, or 160 with 2 starters a batch of knights and the command.

KINGS OF WAR TIME!

I went with dwarfs here. and did a little bit of research on Organized play. they do games of either 1500 or 2000pt games. My knowledge of this game is limited to it's name and it looks very similar to WHF in list building and armies and such.

This was easy we start with the Dwarf Mega Force! when creating this point list I used the most expensive options when it came to units that could be multiple things which I believe were only the Ironwatch and Cannons here is the contents description from Mantic:

This set contains 144 multi-part plastic Dwarf miniatures, including:

40 Ironclad 1 unit 40 models 180pt

30 Ironwatch 1 unit 10 models 115pt 1 unit 20 models 155pt

30 Shieldbreakers 1 unit 10 models 90pts 1 unit 20 models 130pts

20 Bulwarkers 1 unit 20 models 150pts

10 Brock Riders 1 unit 10 models 210pts

1 Bombard with Crew 110pts

3 Ironbelcher Cannons/Organ Guns with Crew 110pts/cannon

Warsmith with optional components 85pts

Square Bases

Models supplied unassembled and unpainted.

 

Cost $140-160 on ebay Points as stated with the above criteria 1565 you could increase this amount by breaking each unit into its smallest components my point cost breakdown is added in blue.  This is a great deal(based on no knowledge of this game) and its entry point to the small tier tournament is the cost of the box which I around the same cost as Runewars splitting 2 core boxes.  Mantic is nice in that they post their rules online, however if you want most units or models outside of the starter models/units you have to buy their book which is between 20-30.  So I would say they are RW and Kings of War is a similar price point, with Kings have a higher model count based on the army I chose.  I don't know if you can get to 2000 points with upgrades to the models in this force if you can then cool if you can't then it will probably be an additional $50... but the isn't much in the grand scheme of mini games.  And to me the models look like similar quality in detail of the sculpts.  Also we are yet to see what material FFG uses for this game.  I would be surprised if it is the same plastic used in their board games. 

Wow! Thanks for doing that!  I figured you were getting 2-3 times the amount of models for the same amount of money, but it's nice to see it broken down like that.

Ultimately, I think one of the biggest mitigating factors in a cost comparison to other games is that this is a brand new game.  It doesn't have 20 years of history, a player base, a solid reputation, developed factions, etc.  It has to start from scratch.  Having prices that are high (whether subjectively or not) will hurt the game.  As an example, all of the people in my community that were interested have now backed out.  They have cancelled their preorders.  That may not be the norm for most communities or even at all common, but it certainly kills the game for me.  And that sucks.

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4 minutes ago, TheBoulder said:

Wow! Thanks for doing that!  I figured you were getting 2-3 times the amount of models for the same amount of money, but it's nice to see it broken down like that.

Ultimately, I think one of the biggest mitigating factors in a cost comparison to other games is that this is a brand new game.  It doesn't have 20 years of history, a player base, a solid reputation, developed factions, etc.  It has to start from scratch.  Having prices that are high (whether subjectively or not) will hurt the game.  As an example, all of the people in my community that were interested have now backed out.  They have cancelled their preorders.  That may not be the norm for most communities or even at all common, but it certainly kills the game for me.  And that sucks.

No problem it was pretty fun breaking things down, my work computer is also now full of dwarf stuff lol.  I think there will be a lot of LGSs that have big communities and a lot that have no community for this game.  It's unfortunate because to me this is a really exciting game, I like what I have seen of the mechanics and how the army building seems to work.  I hope that maybe the drop in interest in your community may be and ebb and flow and maybe once more is shown of it that interest could return.  I know the people at my LGS are excited for it and I think we all trust FFG enough to make the initial investment.  Though I also understand how hard it is to pull 20yr veterans away from the games they have invests $1000's in. 

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1 minute ago, jek said:

No problem it was pretty fun breaking things down, my work computer is also now full of dwarf stuff lol.  I think there will be a lot of LGSs that have big communities and a lot that have no community for this game.  It's unfortunate because to me this is a really exciting game, I like what I have seen of the mechanics and how the army building seems to work.  I hope that maybe the drop in interest in your community may be and ebb and flow and maybe once more is shown of it that interest could return.  I know the people at my LGS are excited for it and I think we all trust FFG enough to make the initial investment.  Though I also understand how hard it is to pull 20yr veterans away from the games they have invests $1000's in. 

Yeah, that's exactly it.  I think they were all looking at it as a side/second game and the price point is too high when combined with another game of similar price.  It's a hell of a bummer for me as I was also super pumped for this game.  Like the mechanics, minis, and the lore.  I'm hoping that the new factions are priced similar to the core set and that you only need an expansion or two as we find out more about army building.  That might draw them back in...

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Also if you REALLY like this game become a cheerleader for it, encourage people to just try it, get them hooked.  Not saying you aren't planning this but some times for the games we want to play we need to create the community for it, and the escalation leagues and such are great starting points for that!  I just wish the ruled for escalation were released so we can see them.

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49 minutes ago, TheBoulder said:

Wow! Thanks for doing that!  I figured you were getting 2-3 times the amount of models for the same amount of money, but it's nice to see it broken down like that.

Ultimately, I think one of the biggest mitigating factors in a cost comparison to other games is that this is a brand new game.  It doesn't have 20 years of history, a player base, a solid reputation, developed factions, etc.  It has to start from scratch.  Having prices that are high (whether subjectively or not) will hurt the game.  As an example, all of the people in my community that were interested have now backed out.  They have cancelled their preorders.  That may not be the norm for most communities or even at all common, but it certainly kills the game for me.  And that sucks.

I'll buy enough for 2 standard armies at least, if any of you all are in Boston, hit me up for a game.

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10 minutes ago, Taki said:

I'll buy enough for 2 standard armies at least, if any of you all are in Boston, hit me up for a game.

Ok, I will tell you when I find the courage to leave my cave and my family of wild bears and plan to visit the US :)

Oh by the way, does anyone from continental Europe know of good online gameshops ? I mean, I usually buy from a french shop very interesting, but they won't open preorder before the american release so... I've checked the Uk's online shops but the shipping costs will kill the fews bucks spared on their game prices.

 

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