Kylo running out of cards

[Lightrock 856]

3 minutes ago, Parravon said:

But you shouldn't bring a bias from another system into this, because it's not relevant. The Damage Deck and the Discard Pile are two very separate things, so you cannot go searching the Discard Pile for a card. The rule for replacing the Damage Deck only comes into play once the Damage Deck is used. It doesn't apply only when specific cards are used. It must be the deck in its entirety.

They should be going to the Discard Pile when a ship is destroyed, not stay on the ship card

When it is destroyed, they do. But at the time you assign them the ship is still in play. Only when the attack is concluded and the damage is dealt does the ship get destroyed. So technically you do put them on the ship's card no matter what.

[Parravon 5,217]

1 minute ago, Lightrock said:

When it is destroyed, they do. But at the time you assign them the ship is still in play. Only when the attack is concluded and the damage is dealt does the ship get destroyed. So technically you do put them on the ship's card no matter what.

Your post made it sound like you left them there instead of putting them in the Discard Pile.

[StevenO 2,996]

11 minutes ago, Parravon said:

2 hours ago, Lightrock said:

Yeah! One thing for sure I'm never going to forget to put ALL the cards from the attack that destroys my ships on the ship's card if I face Kylo!

They should be going to the Discard Pile when a ship is destroyed, not stay on the ship card

They would go from the ship to the discard pile. It just happens to mill your DD a little bit faster when you do it.  This increases the possibility of getting the Pilot cards out of the DD before Kylo could pick them out.  On the flip side it also makes you deplete the DD faster so you'd end up shuffling up those discarded damage cards to make a new DD for Kylo to plunder.

As I mentioned earlier Kylo may be the first card that REALLY makes pulling cards out of the damage deck "just because you're supposed to" worth it.  Prior to him any unknown card could easily be represented by another token as the next known damage card was just going to be random anyway.  Although it's a little more complicated Kylo is the first card that can apply a specific face-up damage card to a ship; even Maarek was just picking from a random group of cards.

 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

,Well, the question of someone rummaging the discard pile has never been relevant, since you never had direct control over the damage deck.

However, after 10 waves from the game's launch, for the first time, there's a game effect that allows you to search for an specific damage card and assign it.

It is not wild to assume that the rules could be updated or FAQed to cover this new situation.

 

Also, take in consideration that if you need to take a damage card from the damage deck and there's no one available (it's empty), you HAVE to reshuffle the discard pile to form a new damage deck.

Well, it happens that Kylo needs to take a damage card, one with the pilot trait on it... If there's no one available in the deck (it's empty of pilot cards), it is time to reshuffle the discard pile, isn't? If after that there isn't still one available (unlikely), fair game then... But otherwise, you would be just following the rules.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jehan Menasis
clearified some terms

[Oberron 628]

There is no reshuffling in xwing if you run out of the deck then you keep tract of any other damage even crit's as hit results. Pg 8 of the rules iirc

[VanorDM 11,599]

15 minutes ago, Oberron said:

There is no reshuffling in xwing

That is not true.  Per page 9 of the Rules Reference.  

Quote

If the Damage deck is empty when a Damage card must be dealt or drawn, shuffle the discard pile to create a new Damage deck.

 

[digitalbusker 2,248]

26 minutes ago, Oberron said:

There is no reshuffling in xwing if you run out of the deck then you keep tract of any other damage even crit's as hit results. Pg 8 of the rules iirc

The thing you're thinking of with the counters is what you're supposed to do if both the Damage Deck and the discard pile are empty, i.e. all thirty three damage cards are on ships that haven't been destroyed yet.

[Oberron 628]

Ah my mistake

[StevenO 2,996]

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

1 hour ago, Oberron said:

There is no reshuffling in xwing if you run out of the deck then you keep tract of any other damage even crit's as hit results. Pg 8 of the rules iirc

The thing you're thinking of with the counters is what you're supposed to do if both the Damage Deck and the discard pile are empty, i.e. all thirty three damage cards are on ships that haven't been destroyed yet.

And that's generally not an easy thing to do even in Epic.  Prior to Kylo I've often said that just tracking unknown damage "cards" with some kind of token (which a face-down card easily represents) would generally be fine statistically so you'd only need to take a card from the DD if it would become known; Kylo causing a Condition that looks for a specific damage card throw much of that away.

Now that the argument that if the DD doesn't contain any Pilot cards then it is "empty" and should have the discards shuffled in fails because we'd obviously know if there are still cards in the DD.  There's also no guarantee that even if you did shuffle the discarded damage cards into a new DD that you'd now find a Pilot card as it is possible they are all currently in play.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

38 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Now that the argument that if the DD doesn't contain any Pilot cards then it is "empty" and should have the discards shuffled in fails because we'd obviously know if there are still cards in the DD.  There's also no guarantee that even if you did shuffle the discarded damage cards into a new DD that you'd now find a Pilot card as it is possible they are all currently in play.

And the problem is ...?

You will gain full information regardless about the DD when you decide to use ISYTDS, since you can choose whatever 'pilot' card you see fit from the options available. It is irrelevant for Kylo if there 8, 5, 3 o Zero cards. He will get through all the damage deck anyways to choose a card.

Also, remember there's no such thing as "failed actions" in the game, either you can fully complete a given ability or you can't. (Do or do not, there is no try :D). I'm betting my ass now on the fact that if Kylo crew cannot find a pilot card because there's no one available, he will be allowed to choose another action in place of ISYTDS.... There won't be a "Oh sorry, there are no pilot cards, you wasted your action, haha" scenario.

Also, remember that players can look at the Discards deck anytime they wish, so they can already know for sure if there will be 'food' for the ability after reshuffling.

IMO, the sequence would be:

- Search the damage deck, gain full information of options available, choose one pilot card.

----- No pilot card available? Reshuffle Discards on Damage deck, search for one and choose it.

--------- Still no pilot card available? Ability cannot be completed, if its source was an 'action', you may change it.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Jehan Menasis

[StevenO 2,996]

A Condition is not an Action.  Kylo grants the Condition if the target is in range.  After that the Condition is out of his hands and if it doesn't find a card in the DD it doesn't find a card; FFG probably should address that because there is no "may" on the Condition but adding it wouldn't change how the card works when it does and would allow for the situations where there are no Pilot cards to be selected.

 

[Verlaine 1,647]

It's possible that the condition card will receive a clarification that allows players to shuffle the discard pile into the damage deck if there is no crit with the pilot trait available. As it stands however, I don't think that is the most obvious way of reading the rules. And shuffling the discard pile still does not guarantee that a pilot crit is there.

If it was up to me, I'd just rule that Kylo is out of luck if he can not find a suitable card in the DD. He's powerful enough already.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

3 hours ago, StevenO said:

A Condition is not an Action.  Kylo grants the Condition if the target is in range.  After that the Condition is out of his hands and if it doesn't find a card in the DD it doesn't find a card; FFG probably should address that because there is no "may" on the Condition but adding it wouldn't change how the card works when it does and would allow for the situations where there are no Pilot cards to be selected.

 

But the condition is the result of taking an action (in the case of Kylo crew). I was referring to that. If you can't resolve its mechanic, then the whole 'action' cannot be executed. And in that regard it's no different from taking, for example, a barrel roll action. If you can't physically perform it because you have no free space on board, the action cannot be completed, and you are allowed to take another one in its place. If Kylo doesn't find a suitable card, the condition cannot be assigned, as it mechanic cannot be fulfilled, and in the case of Kylo crew, you are probably entitled to choose another action.

But the nuclei of the question is that we already have a rule that dictates what happens when you try to grab a card from the damage deck and there's no one available. You reshuffle discards to form a new damage deck.

And now that I think deeply about it, we have another rule that dictates what happens if there are still no discards available: You start to use damage tokens. It may be another possibility. Perhaps if no pilot card are available, even after reshuffling, you simply assign a damage token to your opponent (which for all purposes would count as assigning a facedown card).

It already works that way for all critical hits, if your opponent suffers a critical hit, but there are no cards available, you reshuffle the discard pile. If there are not discards available because all cards are in play, you assign a damage token to the enemy (albeit losing the critical effect in the process). Why it has to be different for Kylo?

 

14 minutes ago, Verlaine said:

It's possible that the condition card will receive a clarification that allows players to shuffle the discard pile into the damage deck if there is no crit with the pilot trait available. As it stands however, I don't think that is the most obvious way of reading the rules. And shuffling the discard pile still does not guarantee that a pilot crit is there.

If it was up to me, I'd just rule that Kylo is out of luck if he can not find a suitable card in the DD. He's powerful enough already.

As I said before, you already have 100% knowledge (or guarantee) about if at least one pilot card is on the discard pile, as you can examine it whenever you wish, including before deciding on using Kylo (crew) or not.

And 'Powerful enough', obviously, is totally subjective. I don't see how reshuffling the discards makes Kylo 'more powerful' than any other effect in the game that tries to inflict a critical hit when the damage deck is depleted. See the above quote.

[StephenEsven 632]

Joining a bit late I have a hard time tracking all the comments, but I think the cards and rules are straight forward here.

If you perform the Kylo Ren action, you assign the condition card to a ship in Range 1-3. This can only ever fail if no enemy ship is in range. Assuming a ship is in range, it gets the condition. If the condition was already in play nothing more happens. If it was not already in play, you pick up the damage deck, which does not include the discard pile. You get to search for a card with the pilot trait, which you may then put on the condition card. If you don't find any valid cards or any card you would like to put on the condition, nothing more happens and you shuffle the damage deck. In case the damage deck was empty, you get to form a new damage deck before looking through it.

Nowhere does it day that you get to look through the discard pile or shuffle them into the damage deck just because you don't find a damage card in the damage deck that you can/would like to put on the condition card.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

No one is arguing the mechanics of the card. Those are clear.

What we are arguing is that this is the first time an effect allows you to search for specific damage cards, and what happens when, physically, there are no cards available.

In fact, it is a problem much more related to 'game component limitations' rather than 'game mechanics'. And the closer rules we have to this situation are: Running out of Cards, reshuffling of discards on Damage Deck, and Damage Tokens.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Jehan Menasis

[StephenEsven 632]

Quote

If the Damage deck is empty when a Damage card must be dealt or drawn, shuffle the discard pile to create a new Damage deck.

Since it is not mandatory to put a damage card on the condition, the above rule would not come into action. In that case the damage deck would simply be empty and no card would be placed.

[StevenO 2,996]

2 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

Joining a bit late I have a hard time tracking all the comments, but I think the cards and rules are straight forward here.

If you perform the Kylo Ren action, you assign the condition card to a ship in Range 1-3. This can only ever fail if no enemy ship is in range. Assuming a ship is in range, it gets the condition. If the condition was already in play nothing more happens. If it was not already in play, you pick up the damage deck, which does not include the discard pile. You get to search for a card with the pilot trait, which you may then put on the condition card. If you don't find any valid cards or any card you would like to put on the condition, nothing more happens and you shuffle the damage deck. In case the damage deck was empty, you get to form a new damage deck before looking through it.

Nowhere does it day that you get to look through the discard pile or shuffle them into the damage deck just because you don't find a damage card in the damage deck that you can/would like to put on the condition card.

I agree with this except that there is one little problem with it.  When I looked at the Condition card as presented in the web article there is no "may" on it which would seem to indicate you MUST find a card.  Of course that may be IMPOSSIBLE because there are no Pilot cards remaining in the DD and just shuffling the discard pile into the DD doesn't change that.

The SIMPLEST solution to all of this is to add "may" to the Condition card.

Thinking that not finding a Pilot card should give back Kylo's Action ignores the fact that the game state HAS changed as a result of the action.  Using Kylo reveals secret information about what is still available in the DD which is otherwise unknown.  If that isn't a change in the game state why would you EVER want/need to give a dead ship extra damage cards on an overkill or even actually deal those cards in the first place; dealing those extras gives more info about what is in the DD which makes some statistics work but until known they've been mostly irrelevant. 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

1 hour ago, StevenO said:

Thinking that not finding a Pilot card should give back Kylo's Action ignores the fact that the game state HAS changed as a result of the action.  Using Kylo reveals secret information about what is still available in the DD which is otherwise unknown.  

This is no different to declaring a target lock only to see you are just out of range. Or even purposefully knowing that you are out of range.

You still can't perform the action, you are entitled to choose another one, AND you gained information about firing ranges.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Jehan Menasis

[StephenEsven 632]

24 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

This is no different to declaring a target lock only to see you are just out of range. Or even purposefully knowing that you are out of range.

You still can't perform the action, you are entitled to choose another one, AND you gained information about firing ranges.

Kylo's action simply assigns the Condition to a ship. If no ship is in range, the action fails. If a ship is in range the action is resolved. Then the text on the Condition card resolves. But by then the action has been completed.

1 hour ago, StevenO said:

I agree with this except that there is one little problem with it.  When I looked at the Condition card as presented in the web article there is no "may" on it which would seem to indicate you MUST find a card.  Of course that may be IMPOSSIBLE because there are no Pilot cards remaining in the DD and just shuffling the discard pile into the DD doesn't change that.

The SIMPLEST solution to all of this is to add "may" to the Condition card.

Thinking that not finding a Pilot card should give back Kylo's Action ignores the fact that the game state HAS changed as a result of the action.  Using Kylo reveals secret information about what is still available in the DD which is otherwise unknown.  If that isn't a change in the game state why would you EVER want/need to give a dead ship extra damage cards on an overkill or even actually deal those cards in the first place; dealing those extras gives more info about what is in the DD which makes some statistics work but until known they've been mostly irrelevant. 

I looked up the Condition card today and there definitely is a may on it. There might have been a copy earlier without, and it could be cached on your computer.

[StevenO 2,996]

2 hours ago, StephenEsven said:

I looked up the Condition card today and there definitely is a may on it. There might have been a copy earlier without, and it could be cached on your computer.

I guess it's possible I had been looking at something earlier which didn't have the "may" in it but looking at the articles now the ISYTDS card certainly does have the "may" on it as in you "may place it face up on this card."  I see it there now and FFG doesn't note corrections to articles.

I guess that solves the issue.  The condition card is placed.  The person who placed it gets the opportunity to search the DD for a Pilot card and MAY place it on the condition card.  He doesn't have to if all he wanted to do was look through the DD or if there isn't one in there.

 

3 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

4 hours ago, StevenO said:

Thinking that not finding a Pilot card should give back Kylo's Action ignores the fact that the game state HAS changed as a result of the action.  Using Kylo reveals secret information about what is still available in the DD which is otherwise unknown.  

This is no different to declaring a target lock only to see you are just out of range. Or even purposefully knowing that you are out of range.

You still can't perform the action, you are entitled to choose another one, AND you gained information about firing ranges.

Actually it is.  When you declare your intent to TL EVERYTHING is already known; the ruler is just layed out to confirm it.  If the range is off it just means that the internal measure needs a little more work but nothing has actually changed except making that internal ruler a little more accurate for at least a moment or two.

Ranges and template are all knowns and there is nothing random about them.  If the game could drop that "IF YOU MEASURE WHEN YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO WE'LL CUT YOUR HANDS OFF AND WORSE!" mentality it would never be an issue.  What's in the DD may be known at the start of the game, and in fact can be checked, but once cards start going out there has been no way within the rules to know what is in there except by looking at discarded damage cards but even those don't say which are cards still in play and which are in the DD.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

1 hour ago, StevenO said:

Actually it is.  When you declare your intent to TL EVERYTHING is already known; the ruler is just layed out to confirm it.  If the range is off it just means that the internal measure needs a little more work but nothing has actually changed except making that internal ruler a little more accurate for at least a moment or two.

Ranges and template are all knowns and there is nothing random about them.  If the game could drop that "IF YOU MEASURE WHEN YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO WE'LL CUT YOUR HANDS OFF AND WORSE!" mentality it would never be an issue.  What's in the DD may be known at the start of the game, and in fact can be checked, but once cards start going out there has been no way within the rules to know what is in there except by looking at discarded damage cards but even those don't say which are cards still in play and which are in the DD.

Ehm, no. If you want to argue about that, at least be honest. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE has used the "Mmm... I'm going to try a Target Lock" trick, and you know it. Heck, people still uses it because it gives information that you hadn't before or 'corrects' wrong information. 

[WWHSD 9,273]

6 hours ago, StevenO said:

I guess it's possible I had been looking at something earlier which didn't have the "may" in it but looking at the articles now the ISYTDS card certainly does have the "may" on it as in you "may place it face up on this card."  I see it there now and FFG doesn't note corrections to articles.

I think you might be conflating the ISYTDS with the Kylo Ren (pilot) ability. Kylo's ability is mandatory which means the condition might move from the ship that you'd prefer that it stay on.

[StevenO 2,996]

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

9 hours ago, StevenO said:

I guess it's possible I had been looking at something earlier which didn't have the "may" in it but looking at the articles now the ISYTDS card certainly does have the "may" on it as in you "may place it face up on this card."  I see it there now and FFG doesn't note corrections to articles.

I think you might be conflating the ISYTDS with the Kylo Ren (pilot) ability. Kylo's ability is mandatory which means the condition might move from the ship that you'd prefer that it stay on.

No confusion with the pilot ability which I never even thought about before you mentioned it.  The Pilot ability assigns the Condition and then can move it around without effort although just moving it doesn't trigger a new card being put on it.  Certainly not as precise as the Kylo crew ability but that ability requires an Action to activate.

 

[RampancyTW 606]

On 1/31/2017 at 6:49 AM, StephenEsven said:

Joining a bit late I have a hard time tracking all the comments, but I think the cards and rules are straight forward here.

If you perform the Kylo Ren action, you assign the condition card to a ship in Range 1-3. This can only ever fail if no enemy ship is in range. Assuming a ship is in range, it gets the condition. If the condition was already in play nothing more happens. If it was not already in play, you pick up the damage deck, which does not include the discard pile. You get to search for a card with the pilot trait, which you may then put on the condition card. If you don't find any valid cards or any card you would like to put on the condition, nothing more happens and you shuffle the damage deck. In case the damage deck was empty, you get to form a new damage deck before looking through it.

Nowhere does it day that you get to look through the discard pile or shuffle them into the damage deck just because you don't find a damage card in the damage deck that you can/would like to put on the condition card.

Bingo.

DWTCS, DDWTCDS.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

Yeah well, It's more a theoretical exercise about WIICDWTCSBTITFTTMAITG

or...

"What if cannot do what the card says, because this is the first time this mechanic appears in the game"