Hotshot Co-Copilot sequence of actions

[VanorDM 11,599]

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's that spending focus is all or nothing, and the rules are silent about what happens when you can't do all in this context.

As you point out below, Rebel Han does actually address this.  But the debate about Palp really fails IMO because there wouldn't be a question about it if there was say a <blank> and <evade> result in the pool and Palp made the <blank> into an <evade>, would there?  Sure you can't further modify that new <evade> result, but that doesn't stop you from modifying the other results.  If you had the ability to spend the focus token to pass it to someone else, would anyone argue that you couldn't spend it to convert zero <focus> results?

I can't see how there's any difference in converting zero <focus> results that don't exist no matter how many dice there are in the pool that can't be modified, assuming nothing prevents you from modifying dice period, like AC or OL.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

HSCP still needs FAQing a bunch though, and it would be good to cover this situation as well.

Any time they add a new mechanic it's likely to need a FAQ because there just isn't room on the card for enough text to cover all the situations, especially the situations which the Dev's don't think about.  What it really comes down to is RAW vs RAI, and with the FAQ we get the RAI.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I think we are overcomplicating rules again.

You can spend tokens even when there are no dice to be modified. A blinded [old·deck] Garven Dreis can spend a focus on its 0-dice attack to pass it to another player.

There's no such thing as 'locking your pool of dice because you have a single die and it cannot be modified'. When you spend a focus token you must change all the dice that CAN BE modified, leaving alone those that cannot be modified. And if you have only one dice that cannot be modified, that doesn't prevent you from spending the focus token. It is only that even you if spend it, you can't modify that die (but you could still modify others).

Omega Leader and similar abilities block YOUR ABILITY TO MODIFY. You cannot perform any modifications at all, that's why you can't spend the token. Palpatine's ability only confers 'modification protection' to one die, but he doesn't inhibit or blocks your ability to modify other dice, like Omega leader does.

Conclusion: Unless your ability to modify dice (at all) is blocked by an ability like Omega Leader, or you are prohibited from spending focus tokens, you can ALWAYS spend a focus token to satisfy Hotshotty. It is irrelevant if there are (or there aren't any) dice, or if those particular dice can be (or cannot be) modified.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Jehan Menasis
clarification

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

^ Bingo.

[UberMunchkin 95]

15 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

There's no such thing as 'locking your pool of dice because you have a single die and it cannot be modified'. When you spend a focus token you must change all the dice that CAN BE modified, leaving alone those that cannot be modified. And if you have only one dice that cannot be modified, that doesn't prevent you from spending the focus token. It is only that even you if spend it, you can't modify that die (but you could still modify others).

Emphasis Mine.

Ta Da, question answered.  Yes you can use your precious accuracy corrector, you still have to spend the Focus token though.

From the rules reference:

"When attacking or defending, the ship may spend that token to change all of its Focus results to Hit results (on attack dice) or Evade results (on defense dice)."

&

"A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any results"

In my opinion trying to claim that your Accuracy Corrector allows you to ignore the Hot Shot Co-Pilot is clearly an attempt to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent.

[Vitalis 1,012]

14 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:

When you spend a focus token you must change all the dice that CAN BE modified, leaving alone those that cannot be modified.

Emphasis Mine.

Ta Da, question answered.  Yes you can use your precious accuracy corrector, you still have to spend the Focus token though.

From the rules reference:

"When attacking or defending, the ship may spend that token to change all of its Focus results to Hit results (on attack dice) or Evade results (on defense dice)."

&

"A ship can spend a focus token even if it did not roll any results"

In my opinion trying to claim that your Accuracy Corrector allows you to ignore the Hot Shot Co-Pilot is clearly an attempt to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent.

But in the cases we discussed you have NO dice that can be modified. What now?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this case causes a reversal of the ruling about not being able to modify 0 dice.  I always thought that ruling was bad, and always argued the opposing position before it came out.

[UberMunchkin 95]

Just now, Vitalis said:

But in the cases we discussed you have NO dice that can be modified. What now?

It doesn't matter.

There is nothing anywhere that says that you can only spend a focus token when there are dice that can be modified.  However the Hot Shot Co-Pilot says you must spend if able, just because there are no dice to modifiy doesn't prevent you from spending the token.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

7 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:

It doesn't matter.

There is nothing anywhere that says that you can only spend a focus token when there are dice that can be modified.  However the Hot Shot Co-Pilot says you must spend if able, just because there are no dice to modifiy doesn't prevent you from spending the token.

The FAQ literally says that if dice cannot be modified, which condition AC sets up, tokens cannot be spent.  Look it up, it's either under Omega Leader, Keyan Farlander, or Garven Dreis.  Or possibly all three.

This part is not at issue.

[Vitalis 1,012]

8 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:

It doesn't matter.

There is nothing anywhere that says that you can only spend a focus token when there are dice that can be modified.  However the Hot Shot Co-Pilot says you must spend if able, just because there are no dice to modifiy doesn't prevent you from spending the token.

But it does matter as you need dice to be modified. Even 0 dice. What does dice shows its irrelevant - that is true. But in those cases you have <null> dice that you are able to mod.  And <null> does not equal zero. Basically your whole pool is locked from mods so what are you spending this focus on?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Vitalis

[UberMunchkin 95]

Apologies for the wall of text below.

"Spending Tokens

When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any Focus results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any Focus results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

This is what the FAQ says at the moment, I don't see any reason why you can't spend a focus token and effect zero dice. 

The only thing that prevents you from spending the focus token would be an ability or effect that explicitly states such.

As for the previous comment about the Keyan, Garven or Omega Leader, here's the relevant parts from the FAQ.

Garven Dreis

A ship may be assigned a focus token from Garven Dreis even if it has already performed a focus action earlier in the round. A ship may spend a focus token during an attack even if there are 0 Focus results to change (including an attack where no dice are rolled, such as when a ship has a faceup Blinded Pilot Damage card [original Damage deck]).

Garven may still use his ability after using R5-P9 even if he cannot recover any shields

Ok, nothing in there that says you can't spend a Focus token to modify zero dice, in fact it explicitly says that you can spend a focus token if there are zero focus results and where no dice are rolled. So the Accuracy Corrector cancels all dice and adds two hits and you may not modify those dice again, you can still spend the focus token.

Keyan Farlander

When attacking, if Keyan Farlander has a stress token, he can use his ability even if he hasn’t rolled any Focus results; in this case, 0 dice are modified but 1 stress token is removed.

Keyan Farlander can use his ability only once per attack as card abilities cannot be resolved more than once during the timing specified on the card.

Same here, just a clarification that the text on the card can only be resolved once.  In fact it, again, explicitly states that zero dice are modified but the token is removed. Nothing here suggests that you are prevented from spending Focus tokens if there are zero dice to be modified.

Omega Leader

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, and Emperor Palpatine is equipped to a different enemy ship, the ship with Emperor Palpatine equipped may modify one of the locked ship’s dice.

If a ship locked by “Omega Leader” attacks “Omega Leader” with a Heavy Laser Cannon, it does not change its Crit results to Hit results. Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan Ors) and canceling die results (i.e. Crack Shot) do not count as modifying dice. However, added die results (C-3P0, Advanced Targeting Computer, Accuracy Corrector, etc.) do count as modifying dice and cannot be used.

If “Omega Leader” has an enemy ship locked, when that ship attacks or defends against “Omega Leader,” that ship cannot resolve abilities that would modify dice, even 0 dice, such as Keyan Farlander’s ability. Additionally, that ship cannot resolve abilities that cause “Omega Leader” to reroll his dice (such as R7 Astromech or Elusiveness), as these are abilities that modify dice.

Ok so the only thing I can see that might be relevant is a clarification that if Omega Leader is attacking the you cannot modify dice, including abilities that modify Omega Leaders dice rather than yours.  But since Omega Leader doesn't have a crew slot and won't have Hot Shot Co-Pilot equipped.

And again, nothing here suggests that in the situation being discussed you would be unable to spend a focus token.  Nothing is preventing you from spending it.

I mean seriously, my group looked at this and it took us all of minutes to decide that the intent of the card is to make you spend the token but in a way that you can also benefit from it rather than just stripping it and that you can't claim that you can't spend the token because there are no dice to affect as there is nothing that says you can only spend a focus token if there are dice that can be altered.

 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

33 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The FAQ literally says that if dice cannot be modified, which condition AC sets up, tokens cannot be spent.  Look it up, it's either under Omega Leader, Keyan Farlander, or Garven Dreis.  Or possibly all three.

This part is not at issue.

No, what the FAQ says is that Omega Leader also 'blocks' abilities that modify dice. Only omega Leader works like that.

Omega Leader is the exception, not the rule.

Note the difference in the respective FAQ entries about 'Omega Leader' and 'Garven Dreis':

When explaining how its ability works, Omega Leader refers only to himself "If Omega Leader has an enemy locked...", However Garven Dreis refers to all ships "A ship can spend focus tokens even when there zero [focus] results (including attacks where 0 dice are rolled)...".

The rule for Garven Dreis is general, the one for Omega Leader is specific.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

4 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

No, what the FAQ says is that Omega Leader also 'blocks' abilities that modify dice. Only omega Leader works like that.

Omega Leader is the exception, not the rule.

Note the difference in the respective FAQ entries about 'Omega Leader' and 'Garven Dreis':

When explaining how its ability works, Omega Leader refers only to himself "If Omega Leader has an enemy locked...", However Garven Dreis refers to all ships "A ship can spend focus tokens even when there zero [focus] results (including attacks where 0 dice are rolled)...".

The rule for Garven Dreis is general, the one for Omega Leader is specific.

Omega Leader sets a precedent.  When you are forbidden from modifying dice entirely, you are also forbidden from modifying 0 dice, and thus from spending tokens.  The condition set up by accuracy corrector, and the condition set up by Omega Leader, are the same.  Unless we hear otherwise, they should be treated the same.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

10 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Omega Leader sets a precedent.  When you are forbidden from modifying dice entirely, you are also forbidden from modifying 0 dice, and thus from spending tokens.  The condition set up by accuracy corrector, and the condition set up by Omega Leader, are the same.  Unless we hear otherwise, they should be treated the same.

As I said, only Omega Leader works like that.

If its FAQ entry said 'A ship cannot...', then yes, it would be a precedent. But that's not the case, it clearly mentions 'Omega Leader' and thus, only Omega Leader works like that, excluding any other ships.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jehan Menasis

[UberMunchkin 95]

23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Omega Leader sets a precedent.  When you are forbidden from modifying dice entirely, you are also forbidden from modifying 0 dice, and thus from spending tokens.  The condition set up by accuracy corrector, and the condition set up by Omega Leader, are the same.  Unless we hear otherwise, they should be treated the same.

No it does not, no they are not & no they should not.

FFG are very careful in their choice of language in these documents, Garven Dreis says 'A Ship' whereas Omega Leader reads 'Omega Leader', its a specific choice of language.

Edit: Beaten to it by Jehan Menasis.

Edited February 2, 2017 by UberMunchkin

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Who it says is doing it is irrelevant.  What is being done is.

Omega Leader blanket blocks modifications.

Accuracy Corrector, once used, blanket blocks further modifications.

They're the same, the way one works is the way the other works.  So the restrictions on one are the restrictions on the other unless something inconsistent happens.

[UberMunchkin 95]

Ok then, impasse it is.  I believe you are 100% wrong and there is no way I would play a match based on that reading of the rules, unless that reading of the rules is specifically stated to be correct by FFG.  So I guess we're back to waiting for the FAQ.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

As we were thrree threads ago, let alone three pages, yes.

There's a reason I've been openly and clearly stating that the discussion is open, there are opposing, reasonable positions, and the card is in need of FAQ, right from the beginning of the thread.