Hotshot Co-Copilot sequence of actions

[digitalbusker 2,248]

26 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Spend it to modify the remaining zero dice, just like a ghost or decimator with their zero agility

I quibble with the wording, but yeah, this. I would say "Spend it to modify all the zero [eyeballs]." And even if you Palp to an [eyeball], that one is exempt, but you can still spend a Focus to modify all the rest of the [eyeballs].

[VanorDM 11,599]

1 hour ago, nigeltastic said:

But this is just not a reasonable interpretation of how rules sets work.

That's my issue with Parravon's interpretation as well, based on this logic he uses, one could argue that you can force the person to take the focus action because if they don't they won't have a focus token to spend.

 

On 1/29/2017 at 1:45 AM, iamzoner said:

My common sense tells me that if I am equipping a card that says, when attacking, your opponent must spend a focus token if able means that he spends it immediately, BEFORE getting to have any advantage of the focus token.

That isn't even remotely what the rules say.  At the most, FFG is going to rule that you have to discard the focus token at the end of the attack phase regardless of being able to use it.  Saying that they have to spend it immediately for no effect doesn't match the RAW, RAI or common sense. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by VanorDM

[Achowat 131]

1 hour ago, DeathstarII said:

Spend it to modify the remaining zero dice, just like a ghost or decimator with their zero agility

But there is no "Zero dice," there's one die. One die that you can't modify.

[DeathstarII 1,164]

Just now, Achowat said:

But there is no "Zero dice," there's one die. One die that you can't modify.

Here, let me explain it with something similar

so im using keyan and he's stressed, I roll hit, hit, crit, could I not remove the stress to change my 0 focus results?

[Achowat 131]

1 minute ago, DeathstarII said:

Here, let me explain it with something similar

so im using keyan and he's stressed, I roll hit, hit, crit, could I not remove the stress to change my 0 focus results?

You're modifying those three dice. And any [eye] results will be changed to [hit] results.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

44 minutes ago, Achowat said:

You're modifying those three dice. And any [eye] results will be changed to [hit] results.

Not not modifying any of those three dice. You're modifying all zero of the dice that came up [eye].

Something that prevents you from modifying dice at all (e.g. Accuracy Corrector) would stop you from Keyaning in this way, but something that prevents you from modifying one or more of those dice wouldn't prevent you from spending a Focus to modify the other zero [eye] results.

Edited January 30, 2017 by digitalbusker
...and another thing!

[iamzoner 17]

At least I now understand the difference between the word spend and remove a token. That had not occurred to me before. This now makes complete sense to me why a person can still use the effect of spending the token.

[nitrobenz 1,369]

Another edge case like Accuracy Corrector might be Snap Shot which says:

"Attack: attack 1 ship. You cannot modify your attack dice and cannot attack again this phase."

If a Green Squadron A-wing moves and focuses then a Decimator lands in front of the green at R1 and Snap Shot is used, will the A-wing be forced to spend his precious focus? 

[Parravon 5,217]

7 hours ago, VanorDM said:

That's my issue with Parravon's interpretation as well, based on this logic he uses, one could argue that you can force the person to take the focus action because if they don't they won't have a focus token to spend.

 

That isn't even remotely what the rules say.  At the most, FFG is going to rule that you have to discard the focus token at the end of the attack phase regardless of being able to use it.  Saying that they have to spend it immediately for no effect doesn't match the RAW, RAI or common sense. 

What I'm saying is, that I roll a die (blank) and I'm not happy with the result, so I think I'll Palp it, but HSCP says I must spend a focus token if able, and before I Palp the result, I'm still able to spend that token. So I should spend it, then Palp it. I see using Palp with the intention of locking out HSCP and saving the token for later as pretty poor form. After all, there was a window where I was able to spend it.

I'm not trying to look into the future and demand that a focus action be performed just in case HSCP is in use, because that's just plain dumb. And I know that the rules allow this "lock out", but if I was a TO, I'd rule it had to be spent when it was able to be spent. Which others are free to disagree with, but that's the way I see it.

[WWHSD 9,273]

10 hours ago, Parravon said:

What I'm saying is, that I roll a die (blank) and I'm not happy with the result, so I think I'll Palp it, but HSCP says I must spend a focus token if able, and before I Palp the result, I'm still able to spend that token. So I should spend it, then Palp it. I see using Palp with the intention of locking out HSCP and saving the token for later as pretty poor form. After all, there was a window where I was able to spend it.

I'm not trying to look into the future and demand that a focus action be performed just in case HSCP is in use, because that's just plain dumb. And I know that the rules allow this "lock out", but if I was a TO, I'd rule it had to be spent when it was able to be spent. Which others are free to disagree with, but that's the way I see it.

That's a bad example because Palp doesn't prevent you from spending the focus token. Effects that could prevent a ship from spending a focus token when attack or being attacked by a ship with HSCP:

- Carnor Jax

- Accuracy Corrector

- Fanatical Devotion

- Snap Shot

When the is an Imperial version of Sabine's Masterpiece Omega Leader and Dark Curse can get added to that list.

I see three ways that it might be ruled:

1. Paying the focus token if you have one is essentially a cost to attack or defend against HSCP.

2. HSCP token spending happens during the modify step of the person not rolling the dice.

3. As long as there is an effect remaining that you may spend a token on you can put off spending the token and apply other effects as normal. If one of those other effects removes the ability to spend focus tokens then HSCP doesn't force the token to be spent.

Option #3 is where I'd put my money.

I sent off a few rules questions to FFG the day that HoTR was released and haven't received a response. I'm hoping that the flurry of emails from Frank followed by a FAQ release hits in the next couple of days (I'm dying to know if Inspiring Recruit works with 4-LOM's ability, Rage+Inspiring Recruit+Collision Detectors on 4-LOM seems like a fun way to spend 29 points).    

Edited January 31, 2017 by WWHSD

[Parravon 5,217]

7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

That's a bad example because Palp doesn't prevent you from spending the focus token. Effects that could prevent a ship from spending a focus token when attack or being attacked by a ship with HSCP:

<<snip>>

I see three ways that it might be ruled:

1. Paying the focus token if you have one is essentially a cost to attack or defend against HSCP.

2. HSCP token spending happens during the modify step of the person not rolling the dice.

3. As long as there is an effect remaining that you may spend a token on you can put off spending the token and apply other effects as normal. If one of those other effects removes the ability to spend focus tokens then HSCP doesn't force the token to be spent.

Option #3 is where I'd put my money.

I sent off a few rules questions to FFG the day that HoTR was released and haven't received a response. I'm hoping that the flurry of emails from Frank followed by a FAQ release hits in the next couple of days (I'm dying to know if Inspiring Recruit works with 4-LOM's ability, Rage+Inspiring Recruit+Collision Detectors on 4-LOM seems like a fun way to spend 29 points).    

If you were rolling just the one die, then the Palp "lock-out" would be quite viable. I just don't think you should be able to lock out a die or dice before HSCP can resolve, even though the rules are clearly in favour of it happening. I'd get pretty peeved with a 4-point card that's effectively nullified by the order of resolving various modifications. I can see the intent, but once again it's not matching up with the rules in their strictest sense.

Carnor locks it out straight away, so there's no "if able" option there at all, as does Fanatical Devotion when defending. But Palp and Accuracy Corrector do have a window when you're able which is before you use them. Honestly, I can see this one creating arguments with the HSCP player saying "but you were able to before you used Palp/AC/whatever, so you could have spent the token." and the other player just smiling smugly. 

Let's hope they release the rest of Wave X and spit out a new FAQ. I doubt they'll cover this one, though.

[WWHSD 9,273]

50 minutes ago, Parravon said:

If you were rolling just the one die, then the Palp "lock-out" would be quite viable. I just don't think you should be able to lock out a die or dice before HSCP can resolve, even though the rules are clearly in favour of it happening. I'd get pretty peeved with a 4-point card that's effectively nullified by the order of resolving various modifications. I can see the intent, but once again it's not matching up with the rules in their strictest sense.

Carnor locks it out straight away, so there's no "if able" option there at all, as does Fanatical Devotion when defending. But Palp and Accuracy Corrector do have a window when you're able which is before you use them. Honestly, I can see this one creating arguments with the HSCP player saying "but you were able to before you used Palp/AC/whatever, so you could have spent the token." and the other player just smiling smugly. 

Let's hope they release the rest of Wave X and spit out a new FAQ. I doubt they'll cover this one, though.

Unlike AC, Palp doesn't prevent you from modifying the results pool.

 

Let's take focus tokens out of it completely. Backdraft has the Weapons Failure crit and is  attacking a ship out his rear arc at range two. He is rolling a single die. If he Palps that die into a crit he can still use his ability to add an additional crit result even though Palpatine prevents the die he modified from further modification. If Backdraft would have used Accuracy Corrector however he would be unable to add the result because Accuracy Corrector prevents the entire pool of results from being modified.

The default modification effect of focus tokens is not something that is applied to individual dice. It always applies to the entire pool. 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

4 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

Another edge case like Accuracy Corrector might be Snap Shot which says:

"Attack: attack 1 ship. You cannot modify your attack dice and cannot attack again this phase."

If a Green Squadron A-wing moves and focuses then a Decimator lands in front of the green at R1 and Snap Shot is used, will the A-wing be forced to spend his precious focus? 

No.  Snap Shot prevents you modifying dice, including modifying 0 dice.

Good catch.

[Vitalis 1,012]

8 hours ago, Parravon said:

What I'm saying is, that I roll a die (blank) and I'm not happy with the result, so I think I'll Palp it, but HSCP says I must spend a focus token if able, and before I Palp the result, I'm still able to spend that token. So I should spend it, then Palp it. I see using Palp with the intention of locking out HSCP and saving the token for later as pretty poor form. After all, there was a window where I was able to spend it.

I'm not trying to look into the future and demand that a focus action be performed just in case HSCP is in use, because that's just plain dumb. And I know that the rules allow this "lock out", but if I was a TO, I'd rule it had to be spent when it was able to be spent. Which others are free to disagree with, but that's the way I see it.

And thats the overinterpretation i was talking about... You are forcing an orded of dice modification and that isnt either in the rules or on the HTCP. So where did you took it from? Nowhere on the HSCP is written that it had to be on the first opportunity (or will you try to imply that Kanan shot by HSCP will have to use his ability to satisfy it and cannot skip it to defence roll?). 

[VanorDM 11,599]

31 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

And thats the overinterpretation i was talking about...

That's my issue too, in order for it to work like that requires that you look into the future and do something now, based on what may or may not happen in the next step,  rules can't be based on future intentions.

So there are only a couple ways this can work.

Either you do exactly what the card says and spend the token if able, meaning that if you can create a situation where you are unable spend it you do what the card says.

Or you have to spend it at the first available opportunity to do so.  In theory you could have to discard it regardless of some other effect, but that IMO violates the wording of the card, since it says to spend it, and you can't spend a token without an effect, even if the effect is modifying zero dice.

Edited January 31, 2017 by VanorDM

[Vitalis 1,012]

1 hour ago, VanorDM said:

That's my issue too, in order for it to work like that requires that you look into the future and do something now, based on what may or may not happen in the next step,  rules can't be based on future intentions.

 

I see im not the only one that noticed that forcing to use HSCP before anything else is divination....

There you got it in algorithm, no future telling, just simple flowchart (tak - are yes, nie are no sorry i noticed that after generating it )

[sharrrp 444]

All I'm gonna say, is HSCP is seriously one of the simplest cards in the game.  If you have a focus you have to spend it if possible.  It is possible to spend it for no effect (no eyeballs showing). The only time you wouldn't be able is if Carnor Jax was range one or some other similar prohibitive effect. The amount of discussion on this makes sad.

This really could be all cleared up by a simple Do what the card says. Don't do what it doesn't say."

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

6 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

All I'm gonna say, is HSCP is seriously one of the simplest cards in the game.  If you have a focus you have to spend it if possible.  It is possible to spend it for no effect (no eyeballs showing). The only time you wouldn't be able is if Carnor Jax was range one or some other similar prohibitive effect. The amount of discussion on this makes sad.

This really could be all cleared up by a simple Do what the card says. Don't do what it doesn't say."

For the most part, yes it can.  But in detail, no.

The accuracy corrector/palp point is a valid one - can I choose to take activate an effect prior to spending my focus token, which then prevents me from spending it later (and there's no confusion that accuracy corrector would block focus tokens, as would palping a die to a focus result)?  This isn't remotely clear from the card, and as with anything that isn't, there are at least two major opinions on it, neither of which can prove it is correct, which is why it needs FAQing.

[Vitalis 1,012]

11 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

All I'm gonna say, is HSCP is seriously one of the simplest cards in the game.  If you have a focus you have to spend it if possible.  It is possible to spend it for no effect (no eyeballs showing). The only time you wouldn't be able is if Carnor Jax was range one or some other similar prohibitive effect. The amount of discussion on this makes sad.

This really could be all cleared up by a simple Do what the card says. Don't do what it doesn't say."

No its not - as you have multiple time windows to spend it, and you can block yourself from using it in one of those windows. Your interpretation would be true if there was "immediately" on HSCP.

[sharrrp 444]

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

For the most part, yes it can.  But in detail, no.

The accuracy corrector/palp point is a valid one - can I choose to take activate an effect prior to spending my focus token, which then prevents me from spending it later (and there's no confusion that accuracy corrector would block focus tokens, as would palping a die to a focus result)?  This isn't remotely clear from the card, and as with anything that isn't, there are at least two major opinions on it, neither of which can prove it is correct, which is why it needs FAQing.

I could maybe see a small question with Accuracy Corrector, am I required to use it before AC?  Personally I think the answer should clearly be yes, you were able to spend a focus at some point. The base rules have a cut off for when the tokens can be spent, you can't wait till after that window has passed and then say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because the attack is over" so there's no reason to believe that you can say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because AC was manually triggered"  I wouldn't mind a clarification on that but I still think it's pretty clear.

What exactly are you talking about with Palp? Palping a result has no interaction with HSCP. Let's assume it's one die. If an eyeball is rolled they have to spend the focus. If a blank is rolled they have to spend the focus. If an evade is rolled they have to spend the focus. The fact that the focus doesn't actually DO anything in 2 of those cases is irrelevant. You can spend a focus to change all eyeballs present. If the number of eyeballs is 0 you can still do it, so HSCP says you must.  If something else like Palp modifies that die first, it changes nothing, still have to spend the focus.

There are two full PAGES of stuff here though and almost all of it is easily resolved by "Do what the cards says"

[Vitalis 1,012]

11 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

I could maybe see a small question with Accuracy Corrector, am I required to use it before AC?  Personally I think the answer should clearly be yes, you were able to spend a focus at some point. The base rules have a cut off for when the tokens can be spent, you can't wait till after that window has passed and then say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because the attack is over" so there's no reason to believe that you can say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because AC was manually triggered"  I wouldn't mind a clarification on that but I still think it's pretty clear.

The game mechanics does not know if any action you do will lock you out of using focus until you do it. 

The game DOES know when the attack sequence is over and forces you to spend it before its over.

11 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

What exactly are you talking about with Palp? Palping a result has no interaction with HSCP. Let's assume it's one die. If an eyeball is rolled they have to spend the focus. If a blank is rolled they have to spend the focus. If an evade is rolled they have to spend the focus. The fact that the focus doesn't actually DO anything in 2 of those cases is irrelevant. You can spend a focus to change all eyeballs present. If the number of eyeballs is 0 you can still do it, so HSCP says you must.  If something else like Palp modifies that die first, it changes nothing, still have to spend the focus.

It changes a lot as Palp had a "this dice cannot be modified again" note. If thats the only dice in a pool can you use focus to modify it?

Read the cards please before participating in a discussion.

11 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

There are two full PAGES of stuff here though and almost all of it is easily resolved by "Do what the cards says"

The card says to little in this particular case.

 

 

Im not stuck with any resolution here - cause i can see justification for both (although my opinion is you can lock yourself out of HSCP) but it really pisses me of that some guys write such arbitraty answers where situation is not clear and needs faq...

[nitrobenz 1,369]

I think the issue with Palping on a single die vs Hotshot is a question of whether or not that single die counts as the entire pool or is it just one die. Snap Shot says "you cannot modify your attack dice" and Accuracy Corrector says "your dice cannot be modified again during this attack". Both of these imply that even if there are other dice in the pool, hypothetical or real, none of them may be modified; not even the zero eyeballs that always exist.

Palp on the other hand says "that die result cannot be modified again" emphasis for this discussion on *that die* singular. If there is only one real die does that exclude the possibility of modifying hypothetical results?

This is secondary to the question of whether you're allowed to lock yourself out in the first place. If you have to spend before Accuracy Corrector then the Palp question is moot.

Edited January 31, 2017 by nitrobenz
Underline for emphasis

[VanorDM 11,599]

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

The base rules have a cut off for when the tokens can be spent, you can't wait till after that window has passed and then say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because the attack is over"

According to whom?  What rules say that?

None actually say that, in fact if you actually do as you keep saying and "do what the card says" you're contradicting yourself.  Since the simplest interpretation of the card is that if you can create a situation where you can't spend the focus token you don't have to.    There is however the possibility RAI doesn't work that way and FFG will tell us via a FAQ that you have to rewind the game to the point in which you could spend it, and then do so.

Myself I don't think this will happen and it does not match with RAW, but it is a valid opinion hence the discussion.

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

What exactly are you talking about with Palp? Palping a result has no interaction with HSCP.

Given your tone, you'd be well off to make sure you actually know what you're talking about before posting, because all you're doing is sounding like an aggressive expert, yet clearly don't actually know what the rest of us are talking about, which makes your whole argument all the weaker.

[VanorDM 11,599]

1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

but it really pisses me of that some guys write such arbitraty answers where situation is not clear and needs faq...

Yeah, just because someone doesn't get the argument doesn't mean there isn't one to be made.  This is the 3rd time we've discussed this and in all three cases both sides agree that the other side has valid points... At least all the reasonable people on both sides do.  You do have the occasional person who doesn't actually get one of the two arguments and makes sweeping statements about how easy it is to figure this out.

[WWHSD 9,273]

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

There are two full PAGES of stuff here though and almost all of it is easily resolved by "Do what the cards says"

You should see the other three or four multiple page threads that have come up since the card was released. This thread is basically rehashing everything that we got bored of arguing about but with some new voices throwing in their two cents.

 

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

I could maybe see a small question with Accuracy Corrector, am I required to use it before AC?  Personally I think the answer should clearly be yes, you were able to spend a focus at some point. The base rules have a cut off for when the tokens can be spent, you can't wait till after that window has passed and then say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because the attack is over" so there's no reason to believe that you can say "Oh I'm not ABLE now because AC was manually triggered"  I wouldn't mind a clarification on that but I still think it's pretty clear.

You go on about how everything is clearly handled by "Do what the card says" but the example you give has you making up all sorts of **** that isn't on the card or in the rules.

What the rules and cards do say:

- Accuracy Corrector very clearly prevents you from spending a focus token to modify results after if is used.

- Accuracy Corrector and the default effect of focus tokens have the same timing window.

- When two events have the same timing and are controlled by the same player the player is allowed to resolve them in any order that they choose.

If all of those things are true and HSCP isn't doing anything to change any of them, then there isn't really any reason that Accuracy Corrector shouldn't be allowed to be triggered before HSCP. 

If there is something about HSCP that needs to be used before Accuracy Corrector, does it also need to be used before spending a Target Lock to reroll? Can Finn add a blank green die and have Rey reroll it before having to spend the focus?  

If a new pilot is released with an ability like:

"When you are hit by an attack and suffer critical damage, you may spend a focus token to deal all damage cards face down"

How does HSCP pilot interact with that? That focus token would still be getting spent during the attack but you wouldn't know until after the modify defense dice ( and maybe not even until the compare results step in the case of things like Crack Shot ) if you are even going to have an opportunity to spend a token.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by WWHSD