Hotshot Co-Copilot sequence of actions

[Dymeq 2]

1. For example I'm flying Millennium Falcon with old Fat Han, but instead C-3PO I've Hotshot Co-Pilot. And I'm shooting in someone who have two focus tokens. In first shooting I've missed (he rolled focus and evade, so he MUST spend focus token and he did it and he has no damage) and I'm triggering Gunner. In these case, after Gunner he also MUST use second focus?

2. For example attacker is shooting on me, and I’ve Hotshot Co-Pilot. Attacker has focus token and Target Lock on me. After shooting he has rolled on three dices “blank/blank/blank”. He has to spend focus token now before re-rolling (even if this will not give him anything), or he can re-roll first and after that he MUST spend focus token, even if there still will be only blanks? When is that moment when attacker MUST spend focus token in these case?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1: Yep.  This is an entirely separate attack, so every 'while attacking.defending' thing still applies.

2: Not 100% clear, but the consensus is that as long as he's spent the token before the end of the attack sequence, he's satisfied Copilot.  It doesn't force you to spend the token as soon as you can, just at some point.

In either case, he's obliged to spend the token even if no [eye] symbols were rolled.

[iamzoner 17]

Wait a second. If a player has a focus token AND a target lock and rolls attack dice to get a set of blanks. Hot shot co pilot would force that player to spend their focus before using a target lock wouldn't it? I thought that using a target lock was considered re-rolling dice which was an entirely seperate thing than ROLLING attack dice, which is what triggers Hot Shot Co-Pilot?

I don't see how a player would be allowed to hold onto his focus token until AFTER he spent a target lock to reroll an attack throw in the case of having all blanks for the first throw.

 

Please clarify?

Edited January 27, 2017 by iamzoner
More information.

[digitalbusker 2,248]

The argument goes that HSCP doesn't say you have to spend the Focus token before doing anything else, so as long as you spend the Focus token during the attack at some point, you're satisfying the condition. Needs clarification, but absent official guidance that's how I'd rule it.

[iamzoner 17]

Yes. I understand now, it's due to a lack of clarification on WHEN the token must be spent. It simply says when attacking or defending regardless of sub steps to either attacking or defending. They really should FAQ this card to clarify it.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

8 hours ago, iamzoner said:

Wait a second. If a player has a focus token AND a target lock and rolls attack dice to get a set of blanks. Hot shot co pilot would force that player to spend their focus before using a target lock wouldn't it? I thought that using a target lock was considered re-rolling dice which was an entirely seperate thing than ROLLING attack dice, which is what triggers Hot Shot Co-Pilot?

I don't see how a player would be allowed to hold onto his focus token until AFTER he spent a target lock to reroll an attack throw in the case of having all blanks for the first throw.

 

Please clarify?

'When attacking' as a trigger covers the entire attack sequence.  All the attacker has to do to satisfy HSCP is spend a focus token at some point during that.  It could be Kanan spending it to reduce the attacker's dice (we think), it could be spending it at any time during his modify dice step.  If some putative ability existed which allowed him to spend it for some reason during compare results, that would work too.

Unfortunately, HSCP is one of the more complex cards released recently and still hasn't been FAQed, so it's still subject to a number of minor confusions.

[Goseki1 637]

Hopefully it's included in an updated FAQ next week when the rest of wave 10 is released. 

[Parravon 5,217]

12 hours ago, iamzoner said:

Wait a second. If a player has a focus token AND a target lock and rolls attack dice to get a set of blanks. Hot shot co pilot would force that player to spend their focus before using a target lock wouldn't it? I thought that using a target lock was considered re-rolling dice which was an entirely seperate thing than ROLLING attack dice, which is what triggers Hot Shot Co-Pilot?

I don't see how a player would be allowed to hold onto his focus token until AFTER he spent a target lock to reroll an attack throw in the case of having all blanks for the first throw.

There are three types of modifications that can be made; change results (via upgrade card, pilot card or focus token), re-roll results (via upgrade card, pilot card or target lock), or add results (usually via a card ability). There is no particular order these modifications are required to be made during the Modify Dice steps, but you can only do them once per attack, so you might decide to add a blank result with Finn, reroll all or some of your dice with a target lock, and then spend a focus token to change all focus results to hits.

Rolling and Re-rolling are considered different game concepts when it comes to things that trigger off rolling dice. An upgrade or ability that triggers when rolling dice, does not trigger when re-rolling dice. 

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

9 hours ago, Goseki1 said:

Hopefully it's included in an updated FAQ next week when the rest of wave 10 is released. 

Why?  It doesn't need one.  The intention of HSCP is clear.  Understand the rules, exercise some common sense, and you'll be fine.

[Patrik 17]

5 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Why?  It doesn't need one.  The intention of HSCP is clear.  Understand the rules, exercise some common sense, and you'll be fine.

I still be think it needs an FAQ since there are other issues with that card and its interaction with other cards for example a lot of people are unclear about HSCP's interaction with accuracy corrector (which we have debated over a lot on this forum)

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

What's the clash with AC?

[Patrik 17]

1 minute ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

What's the clash with AC?

the clash is that since after you use AC you cant modify dice now there are two opinions about it 

1. if you use AC you do not have to spend your focus token since you can not modify dice 

2. you have to spend the focus token before you are allowed to use AC 

people have not come to an agreement on which opinion is true and there are good arguments for both sides which means that the only way we can clear the AC/HSCP issue up is an official FAQ on the subject 

[Dr Zoidberg 3,200]

You can spend a focus to modify 0 dice. 

So you use AC; then have to spend the focus regardless, even though you're not modifying any dice.  Again, what's the problem here?

[Patrik 17]

5 minutes ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

You can spend a focus to modify 0 dice. 

So you use AC; then have to spend the focus regardless, even though you're not modifying any dice.  Again, what's the problem here?

Since you can not modify dice (even modifying 0 dice counts as modifying dice) you would not be able to spend your focus token 

now it could be that FFG states that you would still spend the focus token however the need to make an official ruling on the subject

 

[Parravon 5,217]

The simple solution is you must spend the focus token before using AC and then you'll satisfy the requirement of HSCP. If you try and use AC with the sole intention of making it impossible to spend the focus token during the attack, then you're cheating the other player, because you'll still have a focus token available for another attack/defense later. Remember, you must spend it if able, and before using AC is most definitely a time when you're able to spend it.

Maybe it needs a FAQ entry for simple clarification, maybe not. 

[iamzoner 17]

10 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Why?  It doesn't need one.  The intention of HSCP is clear.  Understand the rules, exercise some common sense, and you'll be fine.

My common sense tells me that if I am equipping a card that says, when attacking, your opponent must spend a focus token if able means that he spends it immediately, BEFORE getting to have any advantage of the focus token. I already do not like the fact that he gets to have the advantage of the token he is spending in the first place. I'm waiting for a FAQ to confirm this opinion.

 

I literally want the HSCP card to STEAL a focus token. I don't even know why the community sees an issue with this when there are pilots like Carnor Jax who completely robs you of focus AND evade tokens and spending while in range one. People seem to think it would be some incredible game imbalance for HSCP to strip a useable token to make it unusable. In my opinion that should be the advantage of HSCP.

Edited January 29, 2017 by iamzoner

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Because that would be brokenly powerful. HSCP is already a very strong card.

[Parravon 5,217]

1 hour ago, iamzoner said:

My common sense tells me that if I am equipping a card that says, when attacking, your opponent must spend a focus token if able means that he spends it immediately, BEFORE getting to have any advantage of the focus token. I already do not like the fact that he gets to have the advantage of the token he is spending in the first place. I'm waiting for a FAQ to confirm this opinion.

 

I literally want the HSCP card to STEAL a focus token. I don't even know why the community sees an issue with this when there are pilots like Carnor Jax who completely robs you of focus AND evade tokens and spending while in range one. People seem to think it would be some incredible game imbalance for HSCP to strip a useable token to make it unusable. In my opinion that should be the advantage of HSCP.

So when a card instructs your opponent to "spend a token", they're not allowed to spend it for its usual intended purpose? What your "common sense" is telling you is that they shouldn't be spending the token, they should be removing the token without benefit.

But that's not what the card says. It says they get to spend the token, and when you spend a token you gain some form of benefit from it. The drawback is they must spend it. If they roll a handful of crits or a handful of evades and don't actually need to use a token, they still have to spend it anyway, thus losing it for any future use. That's the point of the card. Not to just strip a token. This could be quite helpful if the ship has yet to attack and wants to spend a focus to make that attack, like using Deadeye. With HSCP, you've just removed that option.

What you want HSCP to do ("steal a focus token") is irrelevant. What it actually does is quite clear. Like thespaceinvader said, it's a very strong card, especially when used in the right circumstances.

[Vitalis 1,012]

On 1/28/2017 at 9:58 PM, Dr Zoidberg said:

Why?  It doesn't need one.  The intention of HSCP is clear.  Understand the rules, exercise some common sense, and you'll be fine.

Intention - yes its clear.

Is it clear by the rules in a game when rolling a dice got like 5 steps...? I don't think so.

22 hours ago, iamzoner said:

 

I literally want the HSCP card to STEAL a focus token. I don't even know why the community sees an issue with this when there are pilots like Carnor Jax who completely robs you of focus AND evade tokens and spending while in range one. People seem to think it would be some incredible game imbalance for HSCP to strip a useable token to make it unusable. In my opinion that should be the advantage of HSCP.

U mad bro...?

It would be broken . I don't even want to elaborate but you got only 1 effect in a game that steals tokens, and that is just one token, with certain restrictions. Broken combos that come into mind? PS10 deci stealing 2  tokens. Kanan with 4 focuses, yea ill take that. All the Rey/Finn sheanigans...VI Palob creating a 1-2 zone of nope. Still don't consider it broken? 

[Achowat 131]

A much more common example, I'd imagine, would be Palpatine defending his own shuttle. I roll a green die, blank, Palp it to an evade, and I can't modify that die anymore, per Palp. So what becomes of my focus token?

[Vitalis 1,012]

7 minutes ago, Achowat said:

A much more common example, I'd imagine, would be Palpatine defending his own shuttle. I roll a green die, blank, Palp it to an evade, and I can't modify that die anymore, per Palp. So what becomes of my focus token?

1) Common sense, and how most of people play now - "if able" kicks in and you can keep it.

2) Some...hmm..lets call them stubborn players... - you need to spend it, cause you had an opportunity and blocked yourself from it.

RAI? No idea.

[Parravon 5,217]

1 hour ago, Achowat said:

A much more common example, I'd imagine, would be Palpatine defending his own shuttle. I roll a green die, blank, Palp it to an evade, and I can't modify that die anymore, per Palp. So what becomes of my focus token?

You spend the token and then Palp it. You must try and spend the token before doing anything that locks the result, because you were able to spend it at some stage during the process. 

[nigeltastic 3,808]

39 minutes ago, Parravon said:

You spend the token and then Palp it. You must try and spend the token before doing anything that locks the result, because you were able to spend it at some stage during the process. 

But this is just not a reasonable interpretation of how rules sets work. You're using the power of humans to skip steps and infer things but rules aren't written like that. You should be thinking without the ability to 'see the future'. If you begin to rule things via inferred information it should be illegal to target lock a ship range 1 of Biggs when you have a homing missile because that would put you in a state that allows you to target the non-biggs ship. Clearly it IS legal to take actions that then nullify "must" abilities in the future or that wouldn't work. 

 

[DeathstarII 1,164]

3 hours ago, Achowat said:

A much more common example, I'd imagine, would be Palpatine defending his own shuttle. I roll a green die, blank, Palp it to an evade, and I can't modify that die anymore, per Palp. So what becomes of my focus token?

Spend it to modify the remaining zero dice, just like a ghost or decimator with their zero agility

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

25 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Spend it to modify the remaining zero dice, just like a ghost or decimator with their zero agility

The trick would be to palp to an eyeball then be unable to spend the focus because you can;t mod the eyeball.

Another one for the list of 'how does this work' edge cases...