Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
WonderWAAAGH

SW: Destiny rules updated 1/24

Recommended Posts

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/0f/94/0f94b62c-2ead-4eeb-8409-e24bb8aa54ae/swd_rules_reference_12.pdf

Mulligans are either simultaneous or you flip a coin to see who goes first.  

You may "decline to act" if you have consecutive actions. Declining =/= passing. 

Taking an action that doesn't change the game state (exhausting Backup Muscle with no counters on it) now qualifies as passing. They're preventing infinite loops that would indefinitely stall the game. 

Damage dealt to a character in excess of its health is now ignored, regardless of whether or not that character is defeated. The big change here is that Second Chance effectively re-sets a characters HP to 5 if it would be reduced below zero by a single source of damage. Resolving multiple dice should be the same as before.

Inherent dice ability section added. Basically, some dice now have static effects that exist regardless of which zone the corresponding card is in. Relevant cards/dice: Diplomatic Immunity, Launch Bay, anything with a special face. 

Italicized text is now officially just a reminder, and does not override the RRG. 

Additions/adjustments to the multiplayer rules.

Force Training's modality clarified; you must pick two different options. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really dislike the rules regarding "actions that don't change the game state count as passing."

Consider the case when I discard a card from hand to reroll a single die, and get the same face it was on. The game state hasn't changed, so that's passing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole "game state" thing is admittedly nebulous, and could use some addressing. I also found the inherent dice ability section to be quite muddled, though I understood their general intent... I think. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ketemycos said:

I really dislike the rules regarding "actions that don't change the game state count as passing."

Consider the case when I discard a card from hand to reroll a single die, and get the same face it was on. The game state hasn't changed, so that's passing?

You did change the game state, you have one less cards in hand.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

• If a player triggers an action that does not change the game state, then they are considered to have passed their turn instead. If a player exhausts or plays a card that does not change the game state other than that card being exhausted or played, then they are also considered to have passed their turn instead.

Discarding to reroll a die would not be included in this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Icelom said:

You did change the game state, you have one less cards in hand.

 

But the RRG calls out "playing Noble Sacrifice when you have no blue characters" as a pass action, and in that case you have one fewer card in hand as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, FezDaBrute said:

• If a player triggers an action that does not change the game state, then they are considered to have passed their turn instead. If a player exhausts or plays a card that does not change the game state other than that card being exhausted or played, then they are also considered to have passed their turn instead.

Discarding to reroll a die would not be included in this.

Yes, it would. It's one of the six options listed under "actions."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ketemycos said:

But the RRG calls out "playing Noble Sacrifice when you have no blue characters" as a pass action, and in that case you have one fewer card in hand as well.

Yep I am wrong...

One less card in hand seems like a game state change to me though... I guess that's why we have rules because people interpret things differently.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are cards that care about cards in hand though right? So, for instance, discarding a card to no effect when your opponent has a mind probe in play might be a good heads up play. I mean, sure, it is a corner case but so is the rule in general. Seems... well intentioned but poorly thought out :P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mep said:

Pretty sure rerolling a die is a game action regardless of the outcome. Now discarding a card to reroll dice and deciding to not reroll anything, I could see that as a pass action.

I would agree; a reroll I believe would be a game action because with the "new" dice pool you can trigger new effects, act on support/event cards or even push through damage that all changes the "state of game"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Mep said:

Pretty sure rerolling a die is a game action regardless of the outcome. Now discarding a card to reroll dice and deciding to not reroll anything, I could see that as a pass action.

You actually can't do that.  The rules specifically say you can discard a card to reroll 1 or more dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You actually can't do that.  The rules specifically say you can discard a card to reroll 1 or more dice.

Then it is even more silly to do such a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Perhaps the wording should have been "cannot change the game state" instead of "does not."

I think the rules that talk to the resolution of card effects would be a better place to detail this and avoid the whole "game state", has changed or hasn't changed issue. Otherwise I think that works for the most part.

The rule book now talks about the game state in three places, but actually never tells us what the game state is.

Edited by Amanal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Mep said:

Pretty sure rerolling a die is a game action regardless of the outcome. Now discarding a card to reroll dice and deciding to not reroll anything, I could see that as a pass action.

How is rerolling a die and getting the same result "changing the game state?"

FFG hasn't precisely defined what is meant by "the game state," nor what changes it. We can only infer conclusions from what they have explicitly ruled about. Since one of the examples they provide of something that doesn't change the game state is playing a Noble Sacrifice when you have no Blue character, it follows that changing the number of cards in one's hand doesn't by itself "change the game state." The only other aspect of the action "discard a card to reroll dice" is the die faces. If they're the same before and after re-rolling, they haven't changed. So to me, the new rules seem to indicate that discarding a card to reroll and getting the same faces is the same as passing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are thinking too hard on this one. Noble Sacrifice play is clearly intended to delay the game. Rerolling a die is not regardless of the result. Also some die have duplicate faces. Are you sure that is the exact same result?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not a matter of intent. It's a matter of how the rules are written. They need to be applied consistently, regardless of a player's intent.

Also, I disagree that the only possible scenario for playing Noble Sacrifice without a target is to "pass without passing." Suppose my opponent has a Mind Probe die showing Special, and I have no dice in my pool. It's to my benefit to play Noble Sacrifice without a target in order to take less damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A re-roll is a legitimate game action. Being focused on the end result and same die facing is over thinking it. The re-roll is the action, done. As long as there are cards in hand, the die can be rerolled.

The rule is clearly about intent, people gaming the system so they can pass without passing. It may be written poorly but its intent is clear.

Since there is confusion, a better write up is clearly needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mep said:

You are thinking too hard on this one....

Mep, I think you have to!!

Here is my rational for you being right:

Backup Mussel with no tokens, I exhaust it and beyond that the game state doesn't change. "Pass Action".

I discard a card this creates some steps to resolve, I remove the dice from the pool, thus creating a change in the game state, I roll the dice back into the pool and it comes up with the same face, however we have a new game state to that previous as the dice is now in the pool again. So while there is no net change in the game state there has been three changes to the game state when you use an action to re-roll (being the card discard, the dice out and the dice in) phew!!!

Thoughts?

Edited by Amanal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you point to where the rules define "legitimate game action?" I must have missed that term.

What do you mean by "gaming the system?" When I play, I like to use my knowledge of the rules and the options available to me to maximize the chance that I will win, because I'm playing a strategy game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Mep said:

A re-roll is a legitimate game action. Being focused on the end result and same die facing is over thinking it. The re-roll is the action, done. As long as there are cards in hand, the die can be rerolled.

The rule is clearly about intent, people gaming the system so they can pass without passing. It may be written poorly but its intent is clear.

Since there is confusion, a better write up is clearly needed.

I don't think anyone is confused about the *intent*, but rather where the line is drawn as to what is considered to be 'gaming the system' vs not. Typically, 'game state' refers to all the things you would need to uniquely identify and set back up the current board position and continue play. If you take that definition of game state then making any action that does change that equivalent to passing is kind of reasonable (though even then later printings could result in weird circumstances if you don't remember everything).

However, the rules are saying that certain things aren't part of the 'game state', e.g cards in hand, exhausted supports etc. Now any given game state is not unique so it is entirely reasonable to ask which actions fall on the side of 'valid' transformative actions and which don't. There will always be some edge case where you will want to change from one of these 'same' states to another, and more of them will occur as more cards are printed so having a general rule that can be universally applied seems  like a really good idea.

Personally I think it would be much better to just allow you to take these 'non-actions' because it isn't that big of a deal, just a small edge, and have some rules preventing infinite looping but I prefer clean simple rules over complex exceptions. Another option might be to say that one of X effects must resolve otherwise it is considered to be a pass (X being say, re-roll a die, deal damage, add shield, draw a card etc). More convoluted in my mind, and when you actually want to do the edge case it is gonna suck ('I discard this to no effect, now your mind probe will do nothing. Ok I pass ending the turn. Sucks to be you.) but gets away from this non-unique game state business and seems to do a good job of dividing mostly nothing actions with ones that do things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess I am not understanding what the issue is with this on the pass ruling. The only time a turn will end is if both players pass. Am I missing something? If you do something that makes you pass and your opponent doesn't pass you get to continue to do things if you have them available. If they pass and end the turn you both can't do anything further and time resets. I guess I'm not understanding WHY you would ever be in a situation where them ending the turn screws you. In the example of discarding to limit mind probe, ok so what? If they pop mind probe you have still saved that one damage and if they pass they lose their special on mind probe and the whole thing starts over. Just don't understand how this ruling is causing any issues at all. Seems like common sense to me. Passing should be a result of a non action but the act of passing means squat unless they pass too and if they do it resets everyone. What am I missing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...