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Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (Eventual Spoilers)

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4 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I doubt this is specific to our time. Crack open some ancient text and you'll read about how kids today have no respect for their elders, and how the kingdom is going to ****, and how everything used to be better when the writer was young.

Yeah, I love some of the complaints about sports fans starting fights, getting drunk, causing chaos in the city at night.

In Rome during Gladiatorial contests - but it works so well when you don't know that til afterwards.

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14 minutes ago, splad said:

I understand what you are saying but as life long fan of the movie its the only objective take i can make when reviewing the movie. 

What you describe, however, is subjective, not objective. But then there’s....

15 minutes ago, splad said:

The people who i know who said the movie was good seem to be lesser fans of the franchise and are not so invested in the direction of the franchise. I acknowledge all that but i can only see it as failed Star Wars story. Even the prequels felt more in the vein of the original trilogy to me.

I think you’ll find many of us here exist in direct contradiction to this statement. But, hey...who are we do deny you the role of Gatekeeper, telling others they’re “lesser” fans than you because they liked a movie you didn’t, right?

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15 minutes ago, splad said:

seem to be lesser fans of the franchise

Are we sure this isn’t just @Archlyte‘s side account, calling people who disagree with them not real fans is kind of their m.o.

but yea this is pretty much the only thing that’s been annoying me about this whole conversation, like there have been people who have massively different opinions but don’t resort to this kind of attack, and it really just shows a lack of a real point and a person who is just feeling emotional and spewing things out expecting people to agree with them if they get angry and abuse them, or others they don’t like, enough. 

Not saying that that’s not a good way for some people, it won trump the presidency, but it’s not a sign of someone who is conversing in good faith. 

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2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I think you’ll find many of us here exist in direct contradiction to this statement. But, hey...who are we do deny you the role of Gatekeeper, telling others they’re “lesser” fans than you because they liked a movie you didn’t, right?

I'll go tell my nephew he's only a lesser fan of the franchise. Li'l guy won't understand, but he has a right to know.

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2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

This does pose an interesting question though, if Rey isn't a Skywalker, and barring them introducing a bastard child somewhere down the line, the only person who could continue the Skywalker family line, is Kylo Ren.

So now the question is, will Disney actually let that marketable name die?  Considering the bait and switch they did with Last Jedi not actually being about the Jedi ending at all, and the amount of money they dumped into this franchise, I don't think so.   Even if Skywalkers don't stay the focus of the story, and perhaps take a sideroll for a while, it does then ask the question : "So will Kylo get redeemed if only to allow for the continuation of children?" 

Because while they could let him have a lover while evil, it does add some layers of potential ickiness to it, given how wonderfully creepy Kylo Ren is.

So my theory, is that he will be redeemed when it's all over, perhaps when he learns that his mother didn't die in their attack on the ship, and then it will open up the potential for some more Skywalkers down the line.

Because say what you will about whether you like the story of Star Wars having a family it follows (hardly the first to do this, Lord of the Rings had the Baggins, Shannara had the...well the Shannaras, etc), I just don't see, from a business model, Disney letting the Skywalkers die out genetically.

I just, yeah I can't see it.

The entire point of TLJ was to attack dynasties. Rey is enormously popular, etc. There's not only no reason to keep the Skywalker line; TLJ actively ended it. They're just waiting for Episode IX to show you that end.

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Just now, Endersai said:

 TLJ actively ended it. They're just waiting for Episode IX to show you that end.

Except it ISN'T ended.  Kylo Ren is Leia's child, she is a Skywalker.  Assuming he is able to procreate, and given the sexual tension they were alluding to in TLJ, I see no reason he wouldn't, then the line could, and would continue.   

 

 

2 minutes ago, Endersai said:

The entire point of TLJ was to attack dynasties.

Yes, and they ended up keeping at least one of them.  The Jedi Order isn't dead, and it's heavily implied that Rey will recreate it in some form, given that she has the books, and the training from Luke.  So that's one dynasty not destroyed by TLJ, despite the implication of the title.  The actual narrative didn't end it.  

As to their being no reason to continue the Skywalker line, sure there is.  For Disney, it's a very marketable name, just like Jedi is.  Now sure, they could end it, I'm not saying it's impossible, but from a business standpoint, it just seems like killing off a very marketable brand for no reason, especially at the onset of this new franchise they just bought for 4 billion dollars.  

So I think that, because of this business view of it, that Kylo will live through Ep 9, whether he's good or bad, I don't know, but I suspect he will live, to keep the chance of a Skywalker at a later date alive.

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27 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

What you describe, however, is subjective, not objective. But then there’s....

I think you’ll find many of us here exist in direct contradiction to this statement. But, hey...who are we do deny you the role of Gatekeeper, telling others they’re “lesser” fans than you because they liked a movie you didn’t, right?

Do you use comprehension? Read again

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9 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yes, and they ended up keeping at least one of them.  The Jedi Order isn't dead, and it's heavily implied that Rey will recreate it in some form, given that she has the books, and the training from Luke.  So that's one dynasty not destroyed by TLJ, despite the implication of the title.  The actual narrative didn't end it.  

How is the Jedi Order a dynasty?

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10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except it ISN'T ended.  Kylo Ren is Leia's child, she is a Skywalker.  Assuming he is able to procreate, and given the sexual tension they were alluding to in TLJ, I see no reason he wouldn't, then the line could, and would continue.   

 

 

Yes, and they ended up keeping at least one of them.  The Jedi Order isn't dead, and it's heavily implied that Rey will recreate it in some form, given that she has the books, and the training from Luke.  So that's one dynasty not destroyed by TLJ, despite the implication of the title.  The actual narrative didn't end it.  

As to their being no reason to continue the Skywalker line, sure there is.  For Disney, it's a very marketable name, just like Jedi is.  Now sure, they could end it, I'm not saying it's impossible, but from a business standpoint, it just seems like killing off a very marketable brand for no reason, especially at the onset of this new franchise they just bought for 4 billion dollars.  

So I think that, because of this business view of it, that Kylo will live through Ep 9, whether he's good or bad, I don't know, but I suspect he will live, to keep the chance of a Skywalker at a later date alive.

No. There's no way the audience forgives Ren for this; more importantly there's no way the galaxy forgives him. I know the mind-bendingly awful EU had the precedent of just letting a genocidal nutter get off because he was sorry (the EU so deserved to die) but since these films aren't written by "will write for food" hacks they're not going to get away with such nonsense. Ren dies in Episode IX. It's just clear they will do that and having him get with Rey, after the **** allusions in TFA, would be fairly odious and insensitive.

Incidentally it was why redeemed Vader had to die; there's no way people forgive these monsters. They end up at Nuremberg, awaiting being shot and then lionised by the alt-right later. :D 

Ren has to die, and for Disney to have free reign commercially they need to not have dynastic legacies forcing their hand. I argued this point for years with defenders of those awful books and comics (remember Cade Skywalker? Yeah, me either) about how stories without Skywalkers not only succeed, but end up wildly popular (KOTOR?). It's no different here. Only a handful care about the Skywalkers, and even less want them around because of Mannequin Skywalker and the prequels. If you kill them off, you don't need them again.

And whilst Ren is interesting, complex, and iconic for marketing purposes... people don't care he's a skywalker. They care he's Kylo Ren.

No, is all respects, the Skywalkers are done. Good thing, too.

 

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54 minutes ago, splad said:

The people who i know who said the movie was good seem to be lesser fans of the franchise and are not so invested in the direction of the franchise.

Guys like Desslok...? 'Lesser fans'. Um, right.

And he's about as crazy as Star Wars fans get (in a good way, mind you...)

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Also the Jedi Order are as dead as the EU and people's conceptions of the Jedi Order before this film. Nothing like what you would consider the Jedi Order will exist ever again in canon. Good riddance, too.

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Just now, StarkJunior said:

The Anthology films are evident that LFL wants to branch out, and giving Rian Johnson a whole trilogy with new characters is even more reason. 

Which is why they will keep a Skywalker around in my opinion. Just in case.

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14 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

How is the Jedi Order a dynasty?

Fine, replace with Institution if you wish.

 

12 minutes ago, Endersai said:

No. There's no way the audience forgives Ren for this; more importantly there's no way the galaxy forgives him. I know the mind-bendingly awful EU had the precedent of just letting a genocidal nutter get off because he was sorry (the EU so deserved to die) but since these films aren't written by "will write for food" hacks they're not going to get away with such nonsense. Ren dies in Episode IX. It's just clear they will do that and having him get with Rey, after the **** allusions in TFA, would be fairly odious and insensitive.

Incidentally it was why redeemed Vader had to die; there's no way people forgive these monsters. They end up at Nuremberg, awaiting being shot and then lionised by the alt-right later. :D 

Ren has to die, and for Disney to have free reign commercially they need to not have dynastic legacies forcing their hand. I argued this point for years with defenders of those awful books and comics (remember Cade Skywalker? Yeah, me either) about how stories without Skywalkers not only succeed, but end up wildly popular (KOTOR?). It's no different here. Only a handful care about the Skywalkers, and even less want them around because of Mannequin Skywalker and the prequels. If you kill them off, you don't need them again.

And whilst Ren is interesting, complex, and iconic for marketing purposes... people don't care he's a skywalker. They care he's Kylo Ren.

No, is all respects, the Skywalkers are done. Good thing, too.

 

You and I clearly disagree, we'll see with Ep 9.  I'm not going to dance around this debate any further, as I've already done so in other threads, and will simply be rehashing old points.

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9 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

All the time.

You described a subjective evaluation as objective. Then declared that your experience is that those who enjoyed the movie are “lesser fans” than you are.

Please indicate what is incorrect.

Then we got some awesome pics of Kylo, our beautiful Prince of Nothing!

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24 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

All the time.

You described a subjective evaluation as objective. Then declared that your experience is that those who enjoyed the movie are “lesser fans” than you are.

Please indicate what is incorrect.

Did you skip the part where I said "people who I know" if you want to apply it to yourself and play the wounded troll by all means,I need a laff

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