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Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (Eventual Spoilers)

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1 minute ago, 2P51 said:

My daughter did observe it was fortunate the Force maintained Leia's hairdo after being blown up by anti ship missiles and decompressed into outer space......

The secrets of Alderaanian hair products survived the planet's destruction, thank the Force. 

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39 minutes ago, Endersai said:

On 1 - it's not just the anti-dynastic bent, which needed to happen because when the Bearded One's work is examined it's a handful of effective blue bloods interacting through sheer, poorly written coincidence. (Oh, Chewie just happened to be there with Yoda during the Clone Wars? Bloody wow, who would have predicted tha...zzzzzz)

It is the message the OT delivered in spades, released from its bonds to ONE bloodline. Nobody can become somebody through deed, not blood. The entire mythology of the US is based on this premise (not the practical reality, mind you). Rey being nobody makes her position now, in a slightly theological way, the result of the Force's whims finding a suitable, worthy avatar. Had Rey not been Rey, would she have been entitled to power as Ben Solo was? No.

For me, Rey's basically my favourite film character now across all 5 of the good films (and I couldn't care less about the prequels) and I've been a fan since 1983, when I saw ANH on TV and Jedi in theatres. This isn't me dropping my fan wang for comparison; it's saying, over time, nobody has embodied the spirit as much as Rey has. Kyle Katarn was my previous favourite but Christ they butchered his story with Jedi Outcast...

2) I think you're again missing that Luke believed his own hype. He'd had such success defying convention and listening to his instinct that it lead him to hubris, and the failure with Ben. If you've never met an adult who has had shut down emotionally after a trauma of sorts - broken marriage, death of a parent or close friend, etc - then your life is missing an experience. It's not at all inconsistent, to me, with Luke's OT character. He was a young man then, and as youths we are full of confidence and bravado. And, arrogance. It's only with time, perspective and hopefully wisdom that we realise what we did poorly in that youth.

The idea that Luke could punish himself to Dark Knight Rises levels of contrition is not out of whack for me; his heroic response at the end also showed what could have been had it not been for his nephew and Snoke.

 

 

1) Yeah, I get that. The only part of Rey's character in TFA I didn't like was how she didn't need anybody's help. As for the whole parents mystery box, I didn't care, so her parents being nobodies doesn't bother me. Heck, my personal theory was she was a Jinn, simply cuz the name's recognizable and distant enough from the dynasty to shake things up. I just think that from a writer standpoint, it's kinda a cop-out as tying her to the Skywalkers, Kenobi, Amidalas - basically any recognizable name - would have led to some drama beyond what we got.

2) I didn't miss it, I just disagree. And I'm not missing that experience, btw, I'm living through it right now (option 2b) thank you very much. Look, this is the 20th time I've had to say this around the internet, and all the debates I've gotten in have changed no one's mind, so please just drop it. You have your interpretation of Luke's actions, motivations, and what he learned during the OT and I have mine. You got lucky enough that a Star Wars film writer agreed with yours. Congrats, now please just be happy with that and stop trying to force me to be the same. I tolerated the Phantom Menace, I can tolerate this.

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1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Casino "Oh, no, I wanted Lando for more fan service" Why bring a new character in a galaxy with a trillion people on a single planet and billion colonized planets. 

Ya'know, I'll give them this. How awesome would it have been if they had kept Billy Dee's involvement on the down-low, and had the maître d go "Oh, you want the fellow with the red rose in his lapel? He's right over there" and whip pan to Lando, dressed to the nines, two beautiful and young women hanging off him, shooting dice. Oh sure, you'd have to rework Hacker Dude throwing the Rebellion under the bus, but I could get behind that.

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8 minutes ago, Ireul said:

1) Heck, my personal theory was she was a Jinn, simply cuz the name's recognizable and distant enough from the dynasty to shake things up. I just think that from a writer standpoint, it's kinda a cop-out as tying her to the Skywalkers, Kenobi, Amidalas - basically any recognizable name - would have led to some drama beyond what we got.

 

If she had been related to ANYBODY it would have been embarrassingly stupid. I've never felt more contempt for people than I have those who said she was a Kenobi; except maybe the "Bring Back Legends" basement dwellers.
The fact she was a nobody, though, to me was great because it was bad writing from Lucas (and with 3 PT films, I get pointing out bad, lazy or daft writing is shooting fish in a barrel with some sort of gatling gun) to constantly make everyone mates/family members with everyone else.

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6 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Ya'know, I'll give them this. How awesome would it have been if they had kept Billy Dee's involvement on the down-low, and had the maître d go "Oh, you want the fellow with the red rose in his lapel? He's right over there" and whip pan to Lando, dressed to the nines, two beautiful and young women hanging off him, shooting dice. Oh sure, you'd have to rework Hacker Dude throwing the Rebellion under the bus, but I could get behind that.I act

I actually think had the plot been to go and find Lando, and thus keep Finn and Rose occupied til Ep 9, would have been better since they only reason he came back was for a fight with Phasma. Which we didn't need.

Still, the synergies of Paige's sacrifice and Finn's ruined sacrifice, where Rose is like "there's another way", were actually satisfying.

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23 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Ya'know, I'll give them this. How awesome would it have been if they had kept Billy Dee's involvement on the down-low, and had the maître d go "Oh, you want the fellow with the red rose in his lapel? He's right over there" and whip pan to Lando, dressed to the nines, two beautiful and young women hanging off him, shooting dice. Oh sure, you'd have to rework Hacker Dude throwing the Rebellion under the bus, but I could get behind that.

Man I would have loved to see billy d in the movie and then when I showed my wife the original trilogy she would have gotten so excited to see him in empire but unfortunately that didn’t happen. 

I think I can really understand the perspective of people who are upset that their personal theories didn’t come true, it can be frustrating, which is something I’ve been experiencing ever since they started deciding what they ant to keep and alter from the eu and what they want to cast aside, but you get over it, and when you do you can enjoy the material for what it was. 

Personally I was convinced from when I first saw tfa commercials that Finn was going to be a Jedi, which would have been ******* cool, and then as soon as I saw him get struck across the spine I was convinced that he was going to be revealed that he was a consular healer because he would heal faster than he should have, and that Leia was going to train him, now I’m sure that he’s going to discover his healing abilities by trying to save rose lol, I’ll probably be disappointed again though. 

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I had no theories invested in this episode. With TFA it felt like a Star Wars movie even if much of the plot was a remix. There were scrapes, thrilling escapes and witty banter.

With TLJ I got none of the feels. The scrapes felt inconsequential and the banter was clunky at best or utterly out of place at worst. And was there one thrilling escape?

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11 minutes ago, robus said:

I had no theories invested in this episode. With TFA it felt like a Star Wars movie even if much of the plot was a remix. There were scrapes, thrilling escapes and witty banter.

With TLJ I got none of the feels. The scrapes felt inconsequential and the banter was clunky at best or utterly out of place at worst. And was there one thrilling escape?

how many times you seen it?

First time? I hated it.

Second time? 8/10.

 

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1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Ya'know, I'll give them this. How awesome would it have been if they had kept Billy Dee's involvement on the down-low, and had the maître d go "Oh, you want the fellow with the red rose in his lapel? He's right over there" and whip pan to Lando, dressed to the nines, two beautiful and young women hanging off him, shooting dice. Oh sure, you'd have to rework Hacker Dude throwing the Rebellion under the bus, but I could get behind that.

Awesome it would be. But pure fanservice it would be as well. Didn't we already agreed that more fan service was the least thing 8 needed? :D
Though as Cameo it would have been pretty cool and not distracting enough to be problematic. BUT those guys how are angry now, imagine when you show them Lando and he literally does nothing! ;-)

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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1 hour ago, Maelora said:

I know :)  You need a thick skin when you're a female GM mostly running games for gamer-guys. I'm not easily offended!

Depends on the gamer-guys. We have yet to hear complains … well outside of destroying all her plans and not knowing our place … you know the usual GM lamenting :P

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16 minutes ago, korjik said:

Did I miss something? I thought it was only Kylo Ren who said Rey's parents were nobodies, and that was just after he got rejected. I dont think he would be the most honest source of info.

... which beggars the question: all of the fans who like Last Jedi now, will you still like it when if Abrams retcons the whole thing in revenge for what Johnson did to Force Awakens? 

Edited by Maelora

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21 minutes ago, korjik said:

Did I miss something? I thought it was only Kylo Ren who said Rey's parents were nobodies, and that was just after he got rejected. I dont think he would be the most honest source of info.

As I recall (viewing #2 will probably be next week with family in town), Kylo said they were "nobodies," and Rey confirmed they were junk scavengers (or the other way around: she said they were junk scavengers, and he called them "nobodies").

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14 minutes ago, Maelora said:

... which beggars the question: all of the fans who like Last Jedi now, will you still like it when if Abrams retcons the whole thing in revenge for what Johnson did to Force Awakens? 

Good question.  I think a better one is the death of Carrie.  Clearly, love or hate Super Leia, it's pretty friggin obvious she was clearly going to play a major part in the Force struggle to come but she passed away.  So regardless of who directs, how that is addressed in my eyes will be the critical element of 9.

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2 hours ago, Maelora said:

... which beggars the question: all of the fans who like Last Jedi now, will you still like it when if Abrams retcons the whole thing in revenge for what Johnson did to Force Awakens? 

Yes, absolutely. Actually I totally assume WHEN not IF. Abrams will most likely bringing back Snoke, profit from Kylo not being a whiny ***** anymore and doing something stupid with the force. Though Abrams will have a hard time to retcon stuff too hard. Johnson left no mystery boxes for Abrams, just a rather clean slate with all the options in the world. Why no one is answering to the call for example is left open, but its not something many even wonder about. Abrams can magical make appear a large army for the resistance or nothing at all, etc, but all that would not change the last jedi one bit. The Last Jedi stands on his own, the good stuff and the bad stuff alike. Unlike TFA, which stands on the shoulder of giants and falls together like a card house when someone unwraps all those mystery gifts . ;-)

Edited by SEApocalypse

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3 hours ago, Ireul said:

1) Yeah, I get that. The only part of Rey's character in TFA I didn't like was how she didn't need anybody's help. As for the whole parents mystery box, I didn't care, so her parents being nobodies doesn't bother me. Heck, my personal theory was she was a Jinn, simply cuz the name's recognizable and distant enough from the dynasty to shake things up. I just think that from a writer standpoint, it's kinda a cop-out as tying her to the Skywalkers, Kenobi, Amidalas - basically any recognizable name - would have led to some drama beyond what we got.

"Obi-Wan Kenobi! That's a name I have not heard..."

My issue isn't with Rey so much as its with the "democratization" of the Force. What I mean by that is that when Kenobi tells Luke about the history of the Jedi we are swept up into a legendary past about an elite order of warrior force mystics with laser swords who stood between civilization and darkness. The Jedi mattered, and to be a Jedi, you had to be brought into the order and taught by a master. It was to aspire to greatness. A Jedi is, by definition, a special person. The identity of being a Jedi matters. That Rey doesn't come from the Skywalker line? That's fine. There were other great Jedi. But tearing down the past and throwing it out? That's the exact opposite of how we were swept into this drama in the first place! I'm not so concerned that she instinctively developed some force powers, mind you. Luke does that in the Wampa cave on Hoth with his lightsaber. So, we have a precedent for a Jedi manifesting powers instinctively. But, with Luke we had a connection to the past with Kenobi and Yoda who passed on the tradition before Luke took on the mantle. With Rey, who is as much a pure-hearted hero as Luke was when he was young, we have older Luke's curt lessons and nothing more. Is that all she needs? Maybe. She can read the wisdom in those boring old books Yoda pretended to destroy, but the need for a teacher to pass on Jedi tradition and identity? That's essentially lost in these films. 

I still love this movie, but this is something that didn't sit quite right with me.

Luke, at least, had Kenobi's introduction and Yoda's tutelage in what the Jedi were all about.

Rey? She's got folktales.

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39 minutes ago, Maelora said:

... which beggars the question: all of the fans who like Last Jedi now, will you still like it when if Abrams retcons the whole thing in revenge for what Johnson did to Force Awakens? 

That will would only confirm my belief that Abrams is a uncreative hack director, and that I shall never touch a product of his ever again.

Actually, come to think of it - I'll probably never bother with his flicks again (beyond IX).

55 minutes ago, korjik said:

I thought it was only Kylo Ren who said Rey's parents were nobodies, and that was just after he got rejected.

As it's a Zen Koan, it's open to interpretation - but we also get confirmation of her parents (or lack thereof) from the Hall of Mirrors. Plus the other themes of the movie support that point of view.

3 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Rey? She's got folktales.

And three purloined Jedi Texts

Edited by Desslok

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51 minutes ago, Maelora said:

... which beggars the question: all of the fans who like Last Jedi now, will you still like it when if Abrams retcons the whole thing in revenge for what Johnson did to Force Awakens? 

Of course I will still like it.  It stands on its own merits.

Bad retcons in later films only reflect the quality of those later films. 

If Abrams engages in hack retcons it will merely confirm he's a hack.

The Last Jedi will still be standing there with its middle finger wagging back at him.

As is proper and right.

Edited by Vondy

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13 minutes ago, Desslok said:

And three purloined Jedi Texts

I mentioned that she had them. Having a book and understanding how Jedi understood that book is quite another. Example: reading the Hebrew scriptures and being aware of thousands of years of rabbinic exegesis, interpretation, and commentary is another. Understanding how its applied in a traditional community is totally separate from the plain meaning of the text. Sure, maybe the Jedi left each student to find his own meaning, but I suspect their master's were guiding their lessons. What is more, they were learning withing broader culture, lessons, and mores of the Jedi. They had an extant Jedi community. Reading a book from a group does not make you an insider. They had a chain of transmission. Master to student, not book to student. Whatever Rey builds, and what she builds may be incredibly good, will not benefit from the living wisdom of a teacher she can interact with. Unless, of course, Luke is the most active force ghost evah!  

Edited by Vondy

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