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Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (Eventual Spoilers)

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53 minutes ago, splad said:

That's the whole point is the essence of what star wars is or was is in danger of being lost their is a certain quality to what makes a star wars movie, a star wars movie

OK but the OT and PT are light years apart tonally, thematically, and quality wise (with the PT being utter tosh), so that consistency would have to by definition scope out TPM, AOTC, and TPM and focus instead on the coincidentally not-awful films of Rogue One, ANH, ESB, RotJ and TFA.

That's what you meant right? Because if you want to defend the prequels I have 6 x Cinema Sins videos point out surface level nonsense, plus some Red Letter Media, for you to sit through.

* * * *

 

Unrelated note, but I love how this film shot the idea of "grey" Jedi in the gut and left it to bleed out, slowly and painfully. It was a daft idea, and I'm glad it's dead.

 

Edited by Endersai

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15 minutes ago, Desslok said:

No, actually what I asked you was "What exactly is a Star Wars movie". Western? Space Opera? Samurai movie? Is it a Lensmen adaption? Is it a WWII war movie? Please, enlighten us to just what a Star Wars Movie is.

Don't get snobby. Star wars is a theme to itself in the vein of the old republican space operas with some mysticism thrown in. As I said it has 40 years of legacy and is a genre in its own right as much as star trek is. Which has spawned 9 features and no I'm not mentioning ewoks lol and around 100 hours of television shows. I feel the problem has become with expectations so high it is easy to disappoint but to this level of dissatisfaction is to much. I remember watching the force awakens and at the end their was applause and some cheering. At the end of last Jedi it was like stunned silence and the audience quietly filed out the perplexed looks on their faces spoke volumes

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2 hours ago, Absol197 said:

No, see, while teleportation would be...not fine, but not horrid, that's not what hyperspace is, and that's also not what happened in TLJ.  Traveling through hyperspace as a Force ability is rather cool, I even had a pet theory that Hyperspace IS the Force, so I'm not opposed to it.  But Hyperspace also is not instantaneous for travel, it just makes it super-quick.

But what I mean by object manifestation is what we see with the sea-spray on Ren's glove, or Han's cockpit dice.  There was SOMETHING physical there, as Luke touched people and things while projected and had physical substance, and both Leia and Ren handle the dice.  But as soon as Luke dies, they disappear, meaning those aren't the original dice.  Luke manifested a physical copy on Krait out of nothing, and when he could no longer sustain it ('cause he was dead), it disappeared.

That's not the Force.  Or at least, it shouldn't be, in my opinion.  I realize now that Mother Talzin did some manifesting in Clone Wars, but it's possible she was just summoning the objects instead, we're not sure.

 

Please keep in mind this is my opinion.

Myself, I was fine with Luke's sending a tulpa out to his twin sister's location. That kind of astral projection fits right in with the Force's general mysticism (more than shooting lightning, really - and who doesn't love Force lightning!), IMO. I'm also okay with Leia demonstrating some crazy life-saving unconscious power use (she flipped a Destiny point), though I do like the idea of Kylo/Ben being the one that did it (I don't think that quite fits, though). 

Now, if these things become common Force uses - if Kylo starts taking long leisurely flights across kilometers of open space and Rey projects herself across the galaxy to say "good morning" and place a bet on the Cloud City Grand Prix - I'll probably start rolling my eyes. But as one-off power stunts - especially with Luke sitting on the Ahch-To vergence, a place steeped in the Force for a thousand generations - cool, cool.

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25 minutes ago, splad said:

Don't get snobby. Star wars is a theme to itself in the vein of the old republican space operas with some mysticism thrown in. As I said it has 40 years of legacy and is a genre in its own right as much as star trek is. Which has spawned 9 features and no I'm not mentioning ewoks lol and around 100 hours of television shows. I feel the problem has become with expectations so high it is easy to disappoint but to this level of dissatisfaction is to much. I remember watching the force awakens and at the end their was applause and some cheering. At the end of last Jedi it was like stunned silence and the audience quietly filed out the perplexed looks on their faces spoke volumes

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1 hour ago, splad said:

If you are there to just watch this movie you no doubt will rank it around 8/10 but for a star wars true blue you will give it a 4/10. The new generation doesn't give too much of a crap for a 40 year old movie. So they will go yippie to blue titty milk and Leia doing a Mary Poppins impression. This is not the star wars movie of my youth. The force awakens made me feel young the last Jedi made me feel old. I can only hope JJ Abrams can pull a winner out of his bottom. He's pitching it to Disney tomorrow.

 

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1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Please then, define for us what exactly is a Star Wars Movie?

I’ll bite. It’s a Saturday morning swashbuckling sci-fi serial writ large. Heroes getting out of the frying pan and into the fire. Edge of the seat action and witty repartee. Villainous villains and fantastic locations.

I want to cheer and boo and be thrilled in the process. Last Jedi evoked none of those sensations for me.

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Just now, splad said:

And being condescending little sod all in one brush stroke. Talented aren't you lol

"Hello, kettle. This is splad."

What, exactly, is declaring what a "Star Wars true blue" will think of a movie, then telling someone else to "not be snobby" but a big heaping bowl of condescension?

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3 minutes ago, robus said:

I’ll bite. It’s a Saturday morning swashbuckling sci-fi serial writ large. Heroes getting out of the frying pan and into the fire. Edge of the seat action and witty repartee. Villainous villains and fantastic locations.

I want to cheer and boo and be thrilled in the process. Last Jedi evoked none of those sensations for me.

Two thumbs up

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Just now, Nytwyng said:

"Hello, kettle. This is splad."

What, exactly, is declaring what a "Star Wars true blue" will think of a movie, then telling someone else to "not be snobby" but a big heaping bowl of condescension?

Go look at the audience reviews to what an "overwhelmingly brilliant" star wars movie this isn't. It so far has split the fan base pretty much down the center

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Just now, splad said:

Go look at the audience reviews to what an "overwhelmingly brilliant" star wars movie this isn't. It so far has split the fan base pretty much down the center

Did I say there wasn't a split among the fan base? Didn't think so.

Your response here didn't answer my question: What, exactly, is declaring what a "Star Wars true blue" will think of a movie, then telling someone else to "not be snobby" but a big heaping bowl of condescension?

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46 minutes ago, splad said:

Don't get snobby.

Hey, I'm not the one running around here saying "Any true Star Wars fan will hate this movie."

46 minutes ago, splad said:

Star wars is a theme to itself in the vein of the old republican space operas with some mysticism thrown in.

Lets see, Flash Gordon like scroll at the beginning? Check. Weird freaky Buck Rodgers aliens? Bombastic Holst-like soundtrack? Check. Lensmen like superpowers? Check. Zen wisdom from Yoda? Check. Hell, Maz's rocket pack? That looked - as near as I can tell - very strongly influenced by the Rocketeer's rocket pack. So check. Cliffhangers?

Oh - wait, no cliffhanger. Good lord, you're right! F this movie for violating cannon!

Edited by Desslok

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6 hours ago, 2P51 said:

Sorry, but when I went to bed at 0400 on Thursday RT was 70%.  4 hours later when I got up it was 54%.  I simply don't buy the 'people make fake accounts' silliness.

Clearly the fan base is divided on this movie, so I'm not taking sides here. Plus this is off the internet, so take it with a HUUUUUUUUGE grain of salt, because I'll give you even money that it's just some butthurt fanboy talking out of his ***, but I did find this:

 

Quote

 

Guess who's back? And yes it was me that caused this. While that vile troll page No More Legends had me banned, they set in motion my ultimate revenge plan against a person and a fanbase that attacked me and my friends like Brendan who had to leave his page Alliance to Defend the DCEU & Star Wars EU out of intimidation as well as the good people in the The Alliance to Preserve the Expanded Universe group and The New Canon Criticism Page.

Thanks to friends of mine who taught me a thing or two about Bot Accounts, I used them to create this audience score through Facebook accounts created that subsequently logged into Rotten Tomatoes who rigged this score and still keep it dropping.

It astounds me how I successfully bring out the worst in all of you and turn all of you against Disney. The Anti-EU fans bought this on themselves and I did what had to be done.

Shall we create something similar for Avengers: Infinity War?

Sound off below!

 

 

Like I said, take it as you will - but it does add traction to the notion that bots are at work in the sharp dropoff.

 

Edited by Desslok

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5 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Hey, I'm not the one running around here saying "Any true Star Wars fan will hate this movie."

Lets see, Flash Gordon like scroll at the beginning? Check. Weird freaky Buck Rodgers aliens? Bombastic Holst-like soundtrack? Check. Lensmen like superpowers? Check. Zen wisdom from Yoda? Check. ****, Maz's rocket pack? That looked - as near as I can tell - very strongly influenced by the Rocketeer's rocket pack. So check. Cliffhangers?

Oh - wait, no cliffhanger. Good lord, you're right! F this movie for violating cannon!

It is Canon who is disputing that. What is being aired here by those who had issues with this movie is the lack of oversight by Kathleen Kennedy who let Rian Johnson create a story with no trilogy plans and then take a wrecking ball to the star wars galaxy that we knew. Kathleen already fired three directors over a lack of vision or ability but no one mentioned to Rian hey that Leia flying thing looks kinda naff. Oh and you kinda made Luke out to be a giant *****. Might want to address that. Oh and maybe umm you kinda killed him from exhaustion sort of lame after a 30 year build up.

Generally along those lines. The rest I'm sure are objections many have raised before hand.

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3 minutes ago, splad said:

It is Canon who is disputing that. What is being aired here by those who had issues with this movie is the lack of oversight by Kathleen Kennedy who let Rian Johnson create a story with no trilogy plans and then take a wrecking ball to the star wars galaxy that we knew. Kathleen already fired three directors over a lack of vision or ability but no one mentioned to Rian hey that Leia flying thing looks kinda naff. Oh and you kinda made Luke out to be a giant *****. Might want to address that. Oh and maybe umm you kinda killed him from exhaustion sort of lame after a 30 year build up.

Generally along those lines. The rest I'm sure are objections many have raised before hand.

Or she agreed 100% with his decisions, which is pretty evident given they entrusted him with a new trilogy. Also, did people forget that Carrie Fisher helped craft and write a lot of the story for TLJ? Because she did.

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1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Or she agreed 100% with his decisions, which is pretty evident given they entrusted him with a new trilogy. Also, did people forget that Carrie Fisher helped craft and write a lot of the story for TLJ? Because she did.

That's the scary part lol if she saw it and went. Hey blue titty milk well that's just cool make Luke drink some and look goofy at the same time

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17 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Clearly the fan base is divided on this movie, so I'm not taking sides here. Plus this is off the internet, so take it with a HUUUUUUUUGE grain of salt, because I'll give you even money that it's just some hurt fanboy talking out of his ***, but I did find this:

 

 

Like I said, take it as you will - but it does add traction to the notion that bots are at work in the sharp dropoff.

 

It’s currently at 93%.  What drop off?

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5 minutes ago, splad said:

It is Canon who is disputing that. What is being aired here by those who had issues with this movie is the lack of oversight by Kathleen Kennedy who let Rian Johnson create a story with no trilogy plans and then take a wrecking ball to the star wars galaxy that we knew. Kathleen already fired three directors over a lack of vision or ability but no one mentioned to Rian hey that Leia flying thing looks kinda naff. Oh and you kinda made Luke out to be a giant *****. Might want to address that. Oh and maybe umm you kinda killed him from exhaustion sort of lame after a 30 year build up.

Generally along those lines. The rest I'm sure are objections many have raised before hand.

That Kennedy has dismissed other directors (with one of those director teams let go deep into production of their movie), and not only did not dismiss Johnson, but entrusted him with overseeing another trilogy tells us at least two things:

  1. She's fine with the decisions he made.
  2. She's fine with what they expect him to bring to the table for his trilogy.

But, what makes me chuckle the most? That - given her firing of other directors for not being in sync with LFL's vision for the franchise - there are people who think that LFL just turned Johnson loose and gave him free rein; that the LFL story group doesn't have a set of story beats that the writers and directors (particularly of the "saga" films) are expected to hit in their entries. They may have a certain degree of freedom in how to navigate the path, but they're expected to reach certain waypoints. And if LFL is ultimately unhappy with the path, they have no qualms about giving the creatives the boot.

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The more I think about this as a controversy, the more I think Disney is actually quite brilliant. I'm not sure there would be this much discussion if the movie had been enjoyed by everyone.

Also, I read an interview with Rian and he says he gave them updates every few days. I'm assuming that had they not liked what he brought them, they would have done something about it.

Edited by JorArns

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2 hours ago, Endersai said:

1) Rey's parentage makes excellent sense. You missed the wider point the film makes.

2) It's not your Luke. It's Rey's story. Luke is merely a supporting character who, over 30 years, has grown and changed. Expectations needed to be managed.

3) re: Kamikaze: I took it that the damage done was bits of the Supremacy flung backwards and outwards at speed that gave it that effect.

4) Arcing lasers, falling bombs, and sound in space. lol @ hard science in space fantasy :D

1) Thank you for telling my what my thoughts for the last few days have been. The wider point of the film was to subvert all the conventions of Star Wars. I got that; I just don't like it. Save it for an Anthology film.

2) I've explained this before, but you probably missed it, so here goes. That it's Rey's story is not the point. Luke in Empire spent his entire training making mistakes and failing. The cave? He gave in to his darker emotions - rage and fear. His vision? He ignored Yoda, ran off into a trap, lost his naivete about his father being a good man, lost a hand, and needed the friends he had gone to rescue to rescue him. And now, come TLJ, he has completely forgotten that his mistakes were what taught him his greatest lessons? Then, Luke in Jedi refused to give up on redeeming Vader, despite everyone telling him it was impossible. He succeeded. Now, come TLJ, the man who refused to give up on his father because he sensed scant good in him considered killing his nephew because he sensed darkness in him? Sorry, but that doesn't flow for me. I had expectations, they were simple - Luke grows to be like prequel-era Obi-Wan. Apparently I'm not pessimistic enough to be a Star Wars film writer though.

3) I got a chance to see a gif of that scene again and I agree with your interpretation. During my viewing the only Star Destroyers I saw beforehand were in front of the Supremacy though, so...

4) HA! If I was complaining about hard science I'd be asking why Star Wars wasn't more like The Expanse. I operate under the rule of "Like reality unless noted". All previous films had the lasers fly straight. Falling bombs weren't a problem because that's how they worked in Empire, however, if you rewatch all the previous films you'll notice a glowy strip on ships/Death Stars around the exit to space. That's a generator to a semi-permeable force-field to maintain atmosphere. The bays in the bombers lacked it, which meant that everyone in those ships should have suffocated as the atmosphere was vented into space. Sound in space is simply a convention of the medium. Ever seen 2001? Lots of silent space parts and they. Are. Boring! This is an adventure series, so silence during battle sequences would be counterproductive.So it's not hard science, just consistent "science".

Edited by Ireul

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Except Obi-Wan had an entire childhood of being taught and tutored by the Jedi - Luke had what, a year? Maybe two? He was thrust into this thing he wasn't ready for, and he was given all of this burden because "he's Luke Skywalker" - he said it in the film, many times. Luke's entire existence was being given things he wasn't ready for because he was a Skywalker, and bumbling (more or less) his way through it to a conclusion, albeit one that was great. And then, after, he was taking on more things he wasn't ready for, because he was all the galaxy had.

Yoda even told him that he needs to stop looking to the horizon and look inward, to understand that failure is the greatest teacher. Obi-Wan failed, Yoda failed. They all did. Pass on the failures, so that those who come after may learn. Obi-Wan and Yoda even failed him, by giving him all this burden that he wasn't really ready for, and twisting the truth to suit what they needed. Luke's journey was perfect, for me, because he earned that ending by finally finding peace and acceptance of his failures, and that the legacy of the Jedi will forever grow beyond the great Skywalker lineage. 

Everyone thought they needed him, that he was the key to defeating the First Order - as Snoke even thought - but one of the main points of TLJ's ultimate theme is that you don't need someone with great lineage, but someone - anyone - can rise to be that spark. I thought that was awesome. The fact that she's a nobody and not a Skywalker, or a Kenobi, or has any other connection to someone from the canon is so refreshing and it unclasps the saga from the burden of the Skywalker bloodline. Otherwise, in my opinion, it'd get repetitive and boring and wouldn't do anything to grow the saga, just a rehash of stuff we've already seen twice before. And she has plenty of things to deal with - now that she's come to terms with her parent's being nobody, where does that leave her? Or has she come to terms with it? Augh, there's just... so much that can happen.

(A note - Rian Johnson has even said it's absolutely possible Luke's presence will continue as a Force Ghost in Episode IX, but it's not up to him, ultimately.)

Edited by StarkJunior

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My current thoughts after one viewing: a really good but unsatisfying Star Wars movie. I liked Kylo and Poe's development. I hated Poe in TFA and it was painful to watch him repeatedly thwarted by his allies in this. I thought Rey was underdeveloped but I like her story. Finn was once again a waste of screen time. Hux was a joke, literally. Luke's part was unsatisfying, but I get they have to make room for the new characters to take over the rest of the series. I was genuinely surprised by a lot of things which made it enjoyable. Phasma is definitely the Boba Fett of this trilogy. Leia was great. I thought Snoke was handled well and was what I expected from an evil powerful dark sider. He reminded me more of a character from the Dark Horse comics than a character from the film's, which I enjoyed. Despite the waste of screen time, I thought Del Toro was the best addition, but I thought it should have been Lando instead. I thought the Yoda and Luke scene was great but should have come earlier in the movie.

Overall I enjoyed the movie.  I thought it was pretty obvious the directors intent to really push the envelope of Star Wars, it echos some of his other films.  But I do not think it was as successful as it could have been.  If you are going to subvert what Star Wars is, then really go for it and change it up.  This movie seemed like it was trying to both subvert and stay true to Star Wars at the same time, which clearly didnt work.  Also as a Star Wars fan i can forgive a lot of plot holes but this movie had them in spades and really broke my suspension of disbelief in several places.  Second viewing today!

Current ranking:

  1. RotJ
  2. RotS
  3. ESB
  4. Rogue
  5. TLJ
  6. AotC
  7. ANH/TPM/TFA

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1 hour ago, Inquisitor Tremayne said:

Finn was once again a waste of screen time.

I would use the everything you said in that sentence was wrong line, but @Desslok already used it against spladdy

jokes aside you can like who you want in the film but you really didn’t like Finn, that’s weird. 

Also what’s weird is people wanting new Star Wars to be exactly like old Star Wars. Like I get it I grew up with Star wars, but when Star Wars came out it was innovative and new and cool and although it still maintains that nostalgia and hidden depth with its very nuanced characters, the original trilogy is not inovative any longer. 

 I tried to show the movies to my wife recently and she correctly stated that it just seemed like stuff she had seen a bunch of people already do, and she’s right because since the time that the original Star Wars was made its elements were replicated or redone like so many boring fantasy authors who can’t stop picking off of Tolkien’s scraps for lack of their own creative thought,

when I went to the movie I didn’t want to get the equivalent of reading another lackluster Tolkien fan fix that passes for fantasy novels, or watch a lack luster original trilogy knockoff, I wanted to see starwars do what in my opinion Star Wars does, and tell new interesting stories. 

My wife went to the new movie with me and she is not a person who likes movies and she loved the film, I loved the film, and if it’s something that a person like me who has been watching Star Wars for 30 years can enjoy as much as my wife who had only begrudgingly watched a sci-fi movie with me before then yea it was a pretty great example of Star Wars bejng Star Wars and telling unique stories that make people like it. 

Edited by Norr-Saba

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10 hours ago, Desslok said:

I wonder if time will be the great equalizer here? People who are "Man, F this movie!" will mellow on that view? It's happened before - Empire was pretty poorly received when it first dropped, and look what happened to it in the interim 35 years. (Counterpoint: Everyone on the internet besides me hates Phantom Menace, and that's 20 years on now - so perhaps not)

I’ve actually never ubderstood the phantom menace hate, there were annoying points but overall I liked the movie. 

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