Ace in the Hole question (no, not that one)

[bampop 8]

Ace in the Hole says, "Set aside that die after it is resolved or removed."

Does that mean it can sit out through the upkeep phase? The upkeep phase section of the RRG says for each player to perform a number of steps. Step 2 is "Returns all of the dice still in their dice pool to their matching cards."

The RRG doesn't use the word "remove." Also, there's no card in play to return it to. So if I never resolve it, and my opponent doesn't manage to remove it before the action phase is ended, what happens to the die?

[Amanal 2,557]

See page 11, the pool of dice you bring but have yet to play are "set aside", so you return the dice to the set aside pool of dice and maybe you can play the card in a later turn.

[bampop 8]

I know that's what happens if the die is resolved or removed. Are you saying that's where the die would go during upkeep if it was never resolved or removed? I'm fine with that interpretation if that's the designers' intent, but since the language of the card doesn't match the language of the rule book, I wasn't sure.

[Amanal 2,557]

Yes, because step 2 of the upkeep phase is to return all dice to their cards. Ace in the Hole specifies to set-aside the dice as there is no corresponding card.

 

UPKEEP PHASE
During the upkeep phase, each player does the following:
1.    Readies their exhausted cards.
2.    Returns all of the dice still in their dice pool to their matching cards.

[ozmodon 535]

The card reads; Discard a Yellow upgrade from your hand to roll it's die... So it's gone after you remove it's die from the pool.

[Amanal 2,557]

The card reads; Discard a Yellow upgrade from your hand to roll it's die... So it's gone after you remove it's die from the pool.

This isn't quite right, the yellow card is discarded in order to roll the dice. It was gone well before the dice would be removed or set-aside from your pool.

 

Ace in the Hole remains in Limbo until you resolve it, so it is discarded only when you complete it by setting aside or removing the dice you used it to roll. Which may be relevant if you can return an event to your hand. Because here there is a bit of a timing issue in taking it from your discard pile as it isn't there until it is resolved.

 

LIMBO

When an event is played, it is placed faceup on the table and is in limbo. It is no longer in the player’s hand. Once the event resolves, it goes to the discard pile.

[Rogue30 60]

Ace in the Hole remains in Limbo until you resolve it, so it is discarded only when you complete it by setting aside or removing the dice you used it to roll.

Nonsense. This part:

"Set aside that die after it is resolved or removed"

is a reminder, or if you prefer, a delayed effect. The event is discarded after rolling the die.

[Amanal 2,557]

At which point the question is, what is that dice doing there?

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Ace in the Hole remains in Limbo until you resolve it, so it is discarded only when you complete it by setting aside or removing the dice you used it to roll.

Nonsense. This part:

"Set aside that die after it is resolved or removed"

is a reminder, or if you prefer, a delayed effect. The event is discarded after rolling the die.

Reminder text is italicized, though. I don't think it qualifies as a delayed effect either, since it doesn't specify a future point in time. What you quoted is really just a simple "after" trigger.

Limbo is a very confusing concept here, because the rules don't explicitly define what "resolve" means within the context of using events. There's also the whole queue apparatus, which is what actually manages the triggered effects. Ideally, cards should remain in limbo just long enough to check for triggers, and then have all of their effects dumped into the queue while the card itself goes to the discard pile. That would neatly solve the problem with the card, but not the die; the current rules, I think, are insufficient to deal with this issue in its entirety. All they really need to do is modify the wording of the cleanup step / upkeep phase so that the entire dice pool is emptied.

Edited January 23, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[Rogue30 60]

 

 

Ace in the Hole remains in Limbo until you resolve it, so it is discarded only when you complete it by setting aside or removing the dice you used it to roll.

Nonsense. This part:

"Set aside that die after it is resolved or removed"

is a reminder, or if you prefer, a delayed effect. The event is discarded after rolling the die.

Reminder text is italicized, though. I don't think it qualifies as a delayed effect either, since it doesn't specify a future point in time. What you quoted is really just a simple "after" trigger.

Limbo is a very confusing concept here, because the rules don't explicitly define what "resolve" means within the context of using events. There's also the whole queue apparatus, which is what actually manages the triggered effects. Ideally, cards should remain in limbo just long enough to check for triggers, and then have all of their effects dumped into the queue while the card itself goes to the discard pile. That would neatly solve the problem with the card, but not the die; the current rules, I think, are insufficient to deal with this issue in its entirety. All they really need to do is modify the wording of the cleanup step / upkeep phase so that the entire dice pool is emptied.

 

Huge nonsense.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

Huge nonsense.

Keen eloquence.

[Amanal 2,557]

 

 

Ace in the Hole remains in Limbo until you resolve it, so it is discarded only when you complete it by setting aside or removing the dice you used it to roll.

Nonsense. This part:

"Set aside that die after it is resolved or removed"

is a reminder, or if you prefer, a delayed effect. The event is discarded after rolling the die.

Reminder text is italicized, though. I don't think it qualifies as a delayed effect either, since it doesn't specify a future point in time. What you quoted is really just a simple "after" trigger.

Limbo is a very confusing concept here, because the rules don't explicitly define what "resolve" means within the context of using events. There's also the whole queue apparatus, which is what actually manages the triggered effects. Ideally, cards should remain in limbo just long enough to check for triggers, and then have all of their effects dumped into the queue while the card itself goes to the discard pile. That would neatly solve the problem with the card, but not the die; the current rules, I think, are insufficient to deal with this issue in its entirety. All they really need to do is modify the wording of the cleanup step / upkeep phase so that the entire dice pool is emptied.

 

 

I believe that step 2 of the Upkeep phase is at least in intent to remove all dice from both players pools and reset the game state for a new turn. I certainly don't think Ace in the Hole (Ace) provides a means to keep a dice in a players pools between actions phases. But I agree that the rules aren't clear here.

 

That said, I do have the general opinion that to fully resolve a card that means you have to have executed and completed its effects, which for Ace will mean that the dice rolled into your pool is resolved or removed. The rules don't seem to require that you resolve a card as it is played, and p13 says that a card is in limbo while it is resolving, again it isn't perfectly clear but a card could be resolving over several turns?

[rowdyoctopus 1,412]

Events are the most poorly explained and fleshed out part of the rules. There are sections of the rules that imply the text on Events is considered an ability, but Events don't fit the 5 types of Abilities the rules define. So then you look at things like Hit and Run against Jango, or Retreat vs. Holdout Blaster on Rey. Things get really confusing.