The Flotilla Debate

[Sygnetix 140]

 

You can apply Admiral cost across the entire fleet because the Admiral is the only card in the game that affects the entire fleet. The RRG and FAQ refer to assigned Admiral cost under the guise of calculating poitns for the ship he was on when you destroyed it. Up until the point in which his is destroyed, because of the way in which he functions, his cost can be applied to the entire fleet.

But the only cost we're (or at least I'm) interested in is the opportunity cost: how many points will I gain by killing that ship. For me sending 50-60 point ship to get 50 points AND guarantee its survival is a good trade even if this ship won't accomplish anything else in this game.

 

Well, that's assuming that you only use specifically 1 commander. If you use Dodonna, the entire reward for killing the flotilla is 38...still far cheaper than the majority of investments required to kill that 18 point ship within the span of a battle. It's also assumes your opponent doesn't intercept the squadrons you send or broadside your dispatched ship to death.

[Sygnetix 140]

 

 

I appreciate you giving me that permission? Lol. I didn't feel obligated to stay. You were asking me direct questions so I was trying to be polite and answer them.

 

 

 

 

not sure how it isn't thematic

 

sure, we see commanders on star destroyers and such, but we also have things like the rebels in a command center on Yavin or the resistance assaulting Star Killer while on a planet

 

actually seems smarter to have your commanding officer as far removed from the battle as possible, monitoring it with whatever equipment they have

 

and if the rebels can keep track of the fight on the deathstar from Yavin, some berk in a floatilla shouldn't have any problem setting up some kind of comms and systems relay

 

 

also the cost preface is kinda bunk. Points are points, no matter how they allocate value when you kill something you get all the points on it. So doesn't matter if you send a raider or whatever to eat a flagship floatilla, you're still getting near a raider's worth in killing it.

 

 

you could also simply ignore the floatilla as it is not contributing a body nor squadron commands to the battle

 There was not a single transmission from Yavin to the fighters, more than likely because they exited communications range.

 

 

"Luke, you switched off your targeting computer."

 

 

"Squad leaders, we picked up a new group of signals: enemy fighters headed your way"

 

Again, a hardened command center would likely have hardware for long range communications. That said, it still doesn't explain how Admirals have this magical, map-wide influence yet squadrons have to be within close-medium range for commands...long range, at best.

 

Say.... didn't Palpatine contact Vader in an asteroid field over by Hoth? And Palpatine was probably very far away....

 

Honestly there are so many examples of FTL communication in Star Wars your point is moot.

 

In a Super Star Destroyer, not a cargo ship....and for about the 10th time thus far....if that's the case then explain the squadron command range limitation interaction.

[Sygnetix 140]

And Ackbar commanded the fleet over Endor when he told Madine to focus fire on the SSD.

Ackbar was on the Home One....

[WuFame 1,269]

 

 

 

I appreciate you giving me that permission? Lol. I didn't feel obligated to stay. You were asking me direct questions so I was trying to be polite and answer them.

 

 

 

 

not sure how it isn't thematic

 

sure, we see commanders on star destroyers and such, but we also have things like the rebels in a command center on Yavin or the resistance assaulting Star Killer while on a planet

 

actually seems smarter to have your commanding officer as far removed from the battle as possible, monitoring it with whatever equipment they have

 

and if the rebels can keep track of the fight on the deathstar from Yavin, some berk in a floatilla shouldn't have any problem setting up some kind of comms and systems relay

 

 

also the cost preface is kinda bunk. Points are points, no matter how they allocate value when you kill something you get all the points on it. So doesn't matter if you send a raider or whatever to eat a flagship floatilla, you're still getting near a raider's worth in killing it.

 

 

you could also simply ignore the floatilla as it is not contributing a body nor squadron commands to the battle

 There was not a single transmission from Yavin to the fighters, more than likely because they exited communications range.

 

 

"Luke, you switched off your targeting computer."

 

 

"Squad leaders, we picked up a new group of signals: enemy fighters headed your way"

 

Again, a hardened command center would likely have hardware for long range communications. That said, it still doesn't explain how Admirals have this magical, map-wide influence yet squadrons have to be within close-medium range for commands...long range, at best.

 

Say.... didn't Palpatine contact Vader in an asteroid field over by Hoth? And Palpatine was probably very far away....

 

Honestly there are so many examples of FTL communication in Star Wars your point is moot.

 

In a Super Star Destroyer, not a cargo ship....and for about the 10th time thus far....if that's the case then explain the squadron command range limitation interaction.

 

 

Gameplay mechanics that don't necessarily have to equate perfectly to the movie. Having the squadrons have a maximum activate range keeps big ships having something to do in the game and keeps them in the fight.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Ah, remembered my favorite anti-theme but pro-gameplay element which hopefully hasn't been errated out

 

Dodonna's Rebel Sympathizer Asteroids, since his ability doesn't specify the source of face-up damage cards

 

 

 

havn't found an explanation for that yet

Edited January 21, 2017 by ficklegreendice

[Drasnighta 26,831]

**I was completely Ninja'd **

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Drasnighta

[WuFame 1,269]

Ah, remembered the other fun anti-theme but pro-gameplay element which hopefully hasn't been errated out

 

Dodonna's Rebel Sympathizer Asteroids

 

 

havn't found an explanation for that yet

 

Asteroids want their freedom from the Empire too.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

 

Ah, remembered the other fun anti-theme but pro-gameplay element which hopefully hasn't been errated out

 

Dodonna's Rebel Sympathizer Asteroids

 

 

havn't found an explanation for that yet

 

Asteroids want their freedom from the Empire too.

 

 

explains them successfully mounting an assault on that one star destroyer in empire strikes back!

[Sygnetix 140]

#AsteroidsLivesMatter

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Ok. I'm done with this thread. It started out with an attempt to have a serious tactical discussion, and is now based on "well they did it in the movies, why can't I do it in the game" debate.

 

I play a game with plastic space ships. You play a game with plastic space ships. We all play a game with plastic space ships. And FFG makes a ton of money off it. I don't care about the thematics and the mechanics of the game matching. This is a game. We have to have balance in order for it to work. We don't need it to be piled on with rule books like 40k, and we don't need the game to be aligned with how the canon does it.

 

Sygnetix, if you can't come to peace with the fact that FFG has defined mechanics that breaks the thematic immersion for you, I don't know what to tell you. Stop playing? Stop taking the game so seriously? Stop trying to make everyone think your POV is the correct one?

 

I'm literally at a loss and quite done with all of this drama. It was fun at first watching you spin in circles trying to kill everyone. But you started this all over again and you can only blame yourself if it turns out horribly. I want nothing more to do with this toxic topic.

 

Have fun and don't burn down the forums.

[Beatty 1,730]

And Ackbar commanded the fleet over Endor when he told Madine to focus fire on the SSD.

Yep. Using the Holonet ships can communicate through Hyperspace across the Galaxy. Distance is not an issue at all for communications, and it never was. And we saw Konstantine on a Flotilla in several episodes of Rebels. But of course he wasn't happy about having to go and deal with Rebels on his Light Cruiser. So Fluff Wise Commanders would feel more comfortable on a larger command ship but they can fly on whatever vessel they want. And more cowardly Commanders hiding in the back ranks of the battle would not have been unknown. Not all Admirals were brave enough to command at the head of an attacking fleet.

So Fluff Wise a Commander can absolutely command from a smaller vessel but it would have been very risky if the enemy found out where they were and sent out ships to kill them.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Beatty

[Captain Weather 1,190]

Agree completely with PT106, while I think the idea of analysing the cost of countering a flotilla lifeboat is valid your method of not incorporating the cost of the admiral is flawed. 

 

As PT says, the cost should be compared on the basis of the total lifeboat cost against the counter. Honestly if anything I think the bump should work the other way, you're killing a flotilla worth anywhere between 38-60 odd points but that's also at the same time negating fleet wide bonuses (as in it should be a positive per-ship addition to killing the lifeboat, not dividing its cost across the fleet). 

 

I think comparing the lifeboat to the counters using the cheapest admiral is also flawed. If Dodonna and Ozzel were omnipresent in the meta than maybe this would be valid but realistically the cost of the lifeboat can vary considerably. 

 

Just as an aside re: admiral powers conferring fleet wide, I actually don't think it's that hard of a logical, thematic jump. I always saw it as the manifestation of a multitude of small things they did that impacted their fleets in those specific ways. Training crews, specialised officers, specific upgrades to ships instituted under their leadership. Maybe Vader's crews are trained to push the ships to beyond their operational stress limits to maximise firepower, or Ackbar installs turbolaser reroutes that divert forward and rear firepower to the sides etc, etc. 

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

wait, just thought of another one

 

Now, I love Mauler Mithel in this game

 

 

But, badass as he is, how does a single squadron of Tie Fighters utterly carpet bomb the everloving crap out of entire formations of enemy squadrons?

[AegisGrimm 284]

So, wait. Are now Bomber Command Centers on Flotillas bad now, too? Because they break people's personal fluff feelings, or something?

*Shifty eyes* Wait...maybe the asteroids are all secret Vong scouts, determined not to let Palpatine's secret plan to use the Empire to prepare for their invasion to succeed, so they secretly help Dodonna keep fighting. Conspiracy!

[Sygnetix 140]

Ok. I'm done with this thread. It started out with an attempt to have a serious tactical discussion, and is now based on "well they did it in the movies, why can't I do it in the game" debate.

 

I play a game with plastic space ships. You play a game with plastic space ships. We all play a game with plastic space ships. And FFG makes a ton of money off it. I don't care about the thematics and the mechanics of the game matching. This is a game. We have to have balance in order for it to work. We don't need it to be piled on with rule books like 40k, and we don't need the game to be aligned with how the canon does it.

 

Sygnetix, if you can't come to peace with the fact that FFG has defined mechanics that breaks the thematic immersion for you, I don't know what to tell you. Stop playing? Stop taking the game so seriously? Stop trying to make everyone think your POV is the correct one?

 

I'm literally at a loss and quite done with all of this drama. It was fun at first watching you spin in circles trying to kill everyone. But you started this all over again and you can only blame yourself if it turns out horribly. I want nothing more to do with this toxic topic.

 

Have fun and don't burn down the forums.

1) You keep referencing the movies for "gotcha" moments that just reinforce my point. That's not my fault, I have no control over that, at all.

2) I understand that. I'm jjust trying to have a peaceful, open discussion without self-righteous responses about how superior someones opinion is over everyone elses. Calm down.

3) It is a game....but's it's a small part of said game that flies in the face of hardline facts about how that game mechanically operates when you logically look at command ranges for squadrons, other upgrade effects ranges, and compare them to Admiral functionality.

4) We do have to have balance, which is what this entire discussion is about. This discussions function is to talk about percieved balance. If you don't agree, you don't have to post. If you can't post anything other than declarations and attempts at comparing the debate to things witnessed in the movies, don't get mad when you own examples illustrate my point.

5) It's not thematic immersion. The game is, however, based on Star Wars. The examples given for extended range communications have not been valid in this context. Some reference Yavin, which was a fortified ground installation and the rest referencing a ship so massive, we'll more than likely never see it in the game, even though it's not a direct scaling game....

6) If you're at a loss, it might be because you're struggling to explain why Admiral interactions have no limitation and flotillas keep coming up because they kind of fly in the face of the rest of the established mechanics of the game....as well as logic.

7) I am having fun because I enjoy a constructive debate. Now that you've publicly proclaimed your departure from this thread, maybe...just maybe.....I can get back to it. 

Take it easy.

[Baltanok 558]

You can apply Admiral cost across the entire fleet because the Admiral is the only card in the game that affects the entire fleet. The RRG and FAQ refer to assigned Admiral cost under the guise of calculating poitns for the ship he was on when you destroyed it. Up until the point in which his is destroyed, because of the way in which he functions, his cost can be applied to the entire fleet.

For me sending 50-60 point ship to get 50 points AND guarantee its survival is a good trade even if this ship won't accomplish anything else in this game.

I like this. Especially if the flotilla hunter is my damaged, token-less, admonition. It's already earned it's keep, so get it to safety and maybe it can snack in the corner.

[Sygnetix 140]

So, wait. Are now Bomber Command Centers on Flotillas bad now, too? Because they break people's personal fluff feelings, or something?

*Shifty eyes* Wait...maybe the asteroids are all secret Vong scouts, determined not to let Palpatine's secret plan to use the Empire to prepare for their invasion to succeed, so they secretly help Dodonna keep fighting. Conspiracy!

So, they have a range limitation of 1-5 and are therefore balanced by putting the flotilla in jeopardy.

[Sygnetix 140]

wait, just thought of another one

 

Now, I love Mauler Mithel in this game

 

 

But, badass as he is, how does a single squadron of Tie Fighters utterly carpet bomb the everloving crap out of entire formations of enemy squadrons?

Maybe he's a magic space wizard, too!

[WuFame 1,269]

Included in the cost of the Admiral is the resources necessary to facilitate long range communication. Would that make you feel better?

Edited January 21, 2017 by WuFame

[Beatty 1,730]

Included in the cost of the Admiral is the resources necessary to facilitate long range communication. Would that .Ake you feel better?

I thought that was already a given for the price of them. I mean an average cost of 25 points is really high for an upgrade.

[Sygnetix 140]

Agree completely with PT106, while I think the idea of analysing the cost of countering a flotilla lifeboat is valid your method of not incorporating the cost of the admiral is flawed. 

 

As PT says, the cost should be compared on the basis of the total lifeboat cost against the counter. Honestly if anything I think the bump should work the other way, you're killing a flotilla worth anywhere between 38-60 odd points but that's also at the same time negating fleet wide bonuses (as in it should be a positive per-ship addition to killing the lifeboat, not dividing its cost across the fleet). 

 

I think comparing the lifeboat to the counters using the cheapest admiral is also flawed. If Dodonna and Ozzel were omnipresent in the meta than maybe this would be valid but realistically the cost of the lifeboat can vary considerably. 

 

Just as an aside re: admiral powers conferring fleet wide, I actually don't think it's that hard of a logical, thematic jump. I always saw it as the manifestation of a multitude of small things they did that impacted their fleets in those specific ways. Training crews, specialised officers, specific upgrades to ships instituted under their leadership. Maybe Vader's crews are trained to push the ships to beyond their operational stress limits to maximise firepower, or Ackbar installs turbolaser reroutes that divert forward and rear firepower to the sides etc, etc. 

Fair points, all. Not to be dismissive, I still have trouble rationalizing vastly separated admirals hanging out in unarmed craft. It just seems to be that it would be more balanced to have some kind of mechanic that required a ship in the fleet to...I dont know... be with the fleet.

IF Vader jumped in a cargo ship and ran out of range to watch the battle from afar, do you think his forces would remain so tightly drilled or do you think morale would suffer at the sight of their leaders cowardice?

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

 

not sure how it isn't thematic

 

sure, we see commanders on star destroyers and such, but we also have things like the rebels in a command center on Yavin or the resistance assaulting Star Killer while on a planet

 

actually seems smarter to have your commanding officer as far removed from the battle as possible, monitoring it with whatever equipment they have

 

and if the rebels can keep track of the fight on the deathstar from Yavin, some berk in a floatilla shouldn't have any problem setting up some kind of comms and systems relay

 

 

also the cost preface is kinda bunk. Points are points, no matter how they allocate value when you kill something you get all the points on it. So doesn't matter if you send a raider or whatever to eat a flagship floatilla, you're still getting near a raider's worth in killing it.

 

 

you could also simply ignore the floatilla as it is not contributing a body nor squadron commands to the battle

The Yavin Bomber Command Center (the art for the card, after all) was located in a hardened fortification on a planet on the other side of a line of obstacle. They also didn't direct the battle, they watched it unfold. There was not a single transmission from Yavin to the fighters, more than likely because they exited communications range.

Your last sentence makes me question if you read the entire explanation or just enough to type a response. Please clarify.

 

 

No, there were multiple transmissions to and from the fighters and Yavin Base. Notably Yavin warned them about incoming TIE fighters, and communicated about why Luke disengaged his targeting computer (after the Death Star cleared the planet in that case).

[Drasnighta 26,831]

 

IF Vader jumped in a cargo ship and ran out of range to watch the battle from afar, do you think his forces would remain so tightly drilled or do you think morale would suffer at the sight of their leaders cowardice?

 

It can be argued that this already happens,

Its a terminology difference though - "Out of Range"  versus "Leave the BattleField"

 

If he leaves the battlefield - that certainly happens.  He's fled the area, and his C&C Breaks down.

But while he remains on the Battlefield, his effect remains...

[Captain Weather 1,190]

What I was suggesting is that maybe its not entirely the Admiral's personal presence but things they have done generally that causes said impact. The loss of these impacts with their death could still be explained by the general effects of losing the commanding officer. 

I see where you're coming from, and I agree at times it does feel off, but finding thematic reasons either way isn't terribly hard. I played a CC game with Vader on a lifeboat a few days ago. I reasoned that Vader had been training the Captain of the ISD and now wished to view the battle from afar. Close enough that his presence would be felt, but without directly impacting it from the bridge of the ISD. 

 

Or on your point about Vader, I'm almost certain no one who had encountered him would presume cowardice. They'd probably figure some nefarious reason. 

 

Mechanically my main issue with range restrictions on admiral's is that it really hurts high mobility fleets which I think is a bad thing. 

[Beatty 1,730]

IF Vader jumped in a cargo ship and ran out of range to watch the battle from afar, do you think his forces would remain so tightly drilled or do you think morale would suffer at the sight of their leaders cowardice?

It can be argued that this already happens,

Its a terminology difference though - "Out of Range"  versus "Leave the BattleField"

 

If he leaves the battlefield - that certainly happens.  He's fled the area, and his C&C Breaks down.

But while he remains on the Battlefield, his effect remains...

Throughout history most Commanders fight from the back of the lines just in the battlefield. Very rarely did they go to the frontlines though when we think of a good leader, like Alexander the Great, we think of them on the frontlines. But that is a false image the majority of the time.