Jump to content
Jike

Kanan Crew and Inertial Dampeners

Recommended Posts

I'm sorry... are you saying that the Kanan card contains the word "immediately"?

As per many many many many other discussions. if multiple events occur within the same timing window, the person who is triggering them can choose the order which they occur.

My interpretation of the defence against the Can and Cant.... those that argue it Cant be done are simply people who are suffering when playing against kanan and are looking for an excuse. :P

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, ThisIsDavin said:

I'm sorry... are you saying that the Kanan card contains the word "immediately"?

As per many many many many other discussions. if multiple events occur within the same timing window, the person who is triggering them can choose the order which they occur.

You get to resolve effects that share the same trigger. We do not have two effects sharing the same trigger, we have one effect triggering during the resolution of another, much like with PtL nesting. The trigger, in this case, is executing a maneuver, and you must choose to resolve Kanan or not immediately upon that trigger being met. You don't get to warp time so you can proceed past that trigger point, do some other things, then come back so you can resolve him in a more favourable way.

18 minutes ago, ThisIsDavin said:

My interpretation of the defence against the Can and Cant.... those that argue it Cant be done are simply people who are suffering when playing against kanan and are looking for an excuse. :P

Kanan's one of my favourite cards and makes his way into a lot of my lists, competitive or not. The only people looking for excuses here are those trying to Rules Lawyer through the established timing windows. Give it a rest already, ya gits!

Edited by DR4CO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I think this is what you may have wrong.  Kanan triggers after the Clean-up substep of executing a maneuver.  That may be in the Activation phase, it may even be in the combat phase in the case of a Daredevil free action.

Inertial Dampeners contains two steps.

  1. Execute a white stop maneuver
    • Move Ship
    • Check Pilot Stress
    • Clean-up
  2. Gain a stress.

Kanan would trigger after the Clean up substep when executing the maneuver.  Anytime something is triggered, it is resolved before moving forward which would mean that Kanan must resolve before moving on to step 2 where you gain your stress.

The FAQ specifically states Kanan triggers after cleanup in the Execute Maneuver Phase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

The FAQ specifically states Kanan triggers after cleanup in the Execute Maneuver Phase.

Precisely! Therefore we get this situation:

  1. Execute a white stop maneuver
    • Move Ship
    • Check Pilot Stress
    • Clean-up
      • Kanan's condition is met, and his ability triggers. The resolution of Inertial Dampeners is interrupted. You must decide here and now whether to use him, or not. Once you have made your choice, Inertial Dampeners continues on with:
  2. Gain a stress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The FAQ specifically states Kanan triggers after cleanup in the Execute Maneuver Phase.

Clean Up is the last thing in Execute Maneuver. "After Clean Up" is the same as "After Execute Maneuver". The only plausible reason for the FAQ entry is somebody thought Kanan triggered after Move Ship for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ThisIsDavin said:

I'm sorry... are you saying that the Kanan card contains the word "immediately"?

As per many many many many other discussions. if multiple events occur within the same timing window, the person who is triggering them can choose the order which they occur.

My interpretation of the defence against the Can and Cant.... those that argue it Cant be done are simply people who are suffering when playing against kanan and are looking for an excuse. :P

 

 

So what's your position on delaying Kanan until after Perform Action so he can clear the stress from Push the Limit? Perform Action happens "after" Execute Maneuver, right? So it's in the same timing window as Kanan, right?

No, of course you can't do that, because the steps laid out in the rules are not chains of triggered events with implied timing windows of "after the last thing", and are therefore not subject to timing based manipulation.

Steps laid out in card effects work the same way. There's only one timing window for ID, "when you reveal your dial". Once you start the process, timing doesn't change. Kanan's timing window is not the same, so there's no opportunity to swap them around.

And thank God Kanan doesn't say "immediately", because adding that word to a card in this game never helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of explanations of different people saying how it works, some of them quite graphic. Here and in the DareDevil thread. But i'll try it once more:

Like they said above, IDs stress is not a triggered effect. So we have two different effects (execute a maneuver, receive a stress token), that happen in an established order, and the second not being a triggered effect of the first.

If the first effect triggers something, that trigger must be resolved before continuing with the second. Because thats the whole point of triggering effects (and nesting, too, btw). It doesnt matter what effects they are, where are they written, how many cards are involved, or anything else: triggered effects resolve before not triggered effects. They are not in the same timing window.

 

And also, like we have said many times, EVERY maneuver has the 3 subphases: move ship, check stress, cleanup. They are not subphases just for the activstion phase. They apply to every maneuver.

 

 

So put those things together and you have why IDs work like:

Execute maneuver -> trigger kanan -> receive stress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the stress gain from the ID isn't in the "check pilot stress" ?

Execute a white stop maneuver

  • Move Ship (don't move)
  • THEN Check Pilot Stress, and gain a stress from the ID
  • Clean-up, Kanan can remove the stress

The "then" on the ID card is respected. Nowhere it's says the "the" is after clean up step.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's exactly what the card says.

 

I don't move in the first step.

Then in the second step I gain a stress,

And in the 3rd step of executing a maneuver I can use Kanan.

 

Why create another thing ? The card doesn't says, "create" another thing between "exectuting a maneuver" and "perform an action". The window the stress is applied is perfectly clear for me, it's the second step of the maneuver, not something that doesn't exist after you remove your templates ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Grendelator said:

Why the stress gain from the ID isn't in the "check pilot stress" ?

Because it specifically says to execute the maneuver first (which includes Check Pilot Stress along with the other two substeps), then receive a stress token?

I mean, really, people. If you need to literally start making stuff up to justify your position you should probably start reconsidering it.

Edited by DR4CO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it's says : When you reveal maneuver (step 1), discard ID to INSTEAD perform a white 0 maneuver (step 1). THEN get a stress (step 2).

then the clean up step (3)

 

It's doesn't says tu execute the maneuver with all it's steps, but perform a movement instead of another.

It more says, reveal your dial, but change what's on your dial, but continue the process of executing a maneuver as usual.

 

FFG should really FAQ this card... So many reading for the same phrasing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Grendelator said:

FFG should really FAQ this card... So many reading for the same phrasing.

No, there's really not. Not unless one is stubbornly trying to Rules Lawyer a favourable ruling for oneself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, the Kanan/ID interaction could stand an FAQ simply because of how much it's come up - it's a question that is undoubtedly frequently asked - the FAQ doesn't have to be things which are non-obvious or unclear, it can just be things that are frequent...

In this case, it's also unclear and wooly and difficult to interpret correctly.

14 minutes ago, Grendelator said:

No, it's says : When you reveal maneuver (step 1), discard ID to INSTEAD perform a white 0 maneuver (step 1). THEN get a stress (step 2).

then the clean up step (3)

 

It's doesn't says tu execute the maneuver with all it's steps, but perform a movement instead of another.

It more says, reveal your dial, but change what's on your dial, but continue the process of executing a maneuver as usual.

 

FFG should really FAQ this card... So many reading for the same phrasing.

 

Except you don't.  WHen you reveal your dial, you stop executing the manoeuvre you were going to execute and do a white 0 stop instead.  You don't do any of the rest of the steps in the original manouevre, because you're doing something else instead.  That something else has its own Check Pilot Stress step built in, and the stress absolutely arrives after that, because the card says it does.

It's not a trivial interaction to get right, but you have definitely got it wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

No, there's really not. Not unless one is stubbornly trying to Rules Lawyer a favourable ruling for oneself.

Yes, there really is.

This thread has shown it's not a trivial thing to get right. The nuance of having the instruction to receive stress being a new sentence starting with "Then..." is not immediately obvious to many people. Even after it's explained some people still aren't getting it and, as I was initially one of those people, I can tell you it's not out of some desire to engineer a favourable outcome. The text is not as clear as it could be.

Everyone benefits from added clarity so why not add it?

Edited by Jike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Response (from organised play FFG) regarding Kanan and Dampeners:

Full disclosure: if the developers give a different interpretation, that's the one that should be considered correct. You can trigger the crew/abilities in any order. So, if you use inertial dampeners, you may use Kanan to clear the stress gained from it.

Any more questions for now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Grendelator said:

No, it's says : When you reveal maneuver (step 1), discard ID to INSTEAD perform a white 0 maneuver (step 1). THEN get a stress (step 2).

then the clean up step (3)

No, the card does not say that anywhere on it. That's the bit you've made up in your head. I can understand how, bit it is still wrong.

At no point does the card say that the white stop manoeuvre generates a stress. It does not. It is white. When Check Pilot Stress happens, the ship neither gains not loses a stress. the part of the card that says 'Then gain 1 stress' is a totally separate effect carried out after the trigger of 'after executing a while manoeuvre' has passed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Response (from organised play FFG) regarding Kanan and Dampeners:

Full disclosure: if the developers give a different interpretation, that's the one that should be considered correct. You can trigger the crew/abilities in any order. So, if you use inertial dampeners, you may use Kanan to clear the stress gained from it.

Any more questions for now?

Well that's going to just re-open this can of worms even wider!

I think it makes sense from the point of view of a moderately thorough reading of the two cards and Kanan's FAQ entry so maybe that's why they've ruled it this way? Yes, the technicalities might say it should be the other way around but that may not have been the intent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jike said:

Well that's going to just re-open this can of worms even wider!

I think it makes sense from the point of view of a moderately thorough reading of the two cards and Kanan's FAQ entry so maybe that's why they've ruled it this way? Yes, the technicalities might say it should be the other way around but that may not have been the intent. 

Well in light of this interpretation we should probably treat "Then receive 1 stress" equally to "After executing this maneuver get 1 stress" - this way that response is consistent with wording on cards. And lets face it: in regards of timing "then" = "after executing".

So i see no inconsistency here.

Edited by Vitalis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Response (from organised play FFG) regarding Kanan and Dampeners:

Full disclosure: if the developers give a different interpretation, that's the one that should be considered correct. You can trigger the crew/abilities in any order. So, if you use inertial dampeners, you may use Kanan to clear the stress gained from it.

Any more questions for now?

Another can of worms that would be opened by this... Does this mean that Kanan now works with Daredevil?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

Response (from organised play FFG) regarding Kanan and Dampeners:

Full disclosure: if the developers give a different interpretation, that's the one that should be considered correct. You can trigger the crew/abilities in any order. So, if you use inertial dampeners, you may use Kanan to clear the stress gained from it.

Any more questions for now?

Hooray! Organized Play has weighed in! We're saved!

15 minutes ago, Innese said:

Another can of worms that would be opened by this... Does this mean that Kanan now works with Daredevil?

No, he doesn't! You know why? Because THE DEVELOPERS HAVE ALREADY OFFERED A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION! From my question about Kanan + Daredevil (I didn't specifically ask about ID because this nonsense hadn't happened yet and they're structured the same):

****

In response to your rules question:
Rules Question:
If a ship is equipped with both Kanan Jarrus (crew) and Daredevil, can it treat the "Then, receive one stress token" part of Daredevil's text as a triggered event with the same timing window as Kanan Jarrus and choose to resolve the stress assignment first, so Kanan has something to do? Or do you have to resolve anything that triggers off the maneuver before moving on to the next part of Daredevil?
When using Kanan with respect to Daredevil, Kanan would trigger after the ship executes the maneuver, but before the stress from Daredevil resolves. Kanan’s ability essentially interrupts the card effect or Daredevil.
*****

Now ask yourself:

  • Is Inertial Dampeners different from Daredevil in a way that should make it work with Kanan in a way that Daredevil does not?
    • If so, how specifically?
  • Is it possible for us to hack into FFG/Asmodee's web systems and just build a searchable developer rulings database for them?
    • Because dang. They really need one.

We figured out how this works months ago. I've explained eleventy different times in twelvety different ways why it works that way. Now I'm out. Find your way to the promised land yourselves. Or don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I'm firmly on the side of Kanan -not- working with ID or Daredevil and have been for quite some time. Its just that the case of the Organized Play ruling is completely inconsistent with a similar ruling over what is essentially the same wording. We're arguing semantics about why X is X, when we both agree that its X to begin with,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a good night's sleep and a lot of card reading I'm almost at the "I see" moment. Or, "Duh", depending.

If we forget Kanan for a moment, I see and understand ID's complete sequence even to the point of adding stress after the cleanup substep. I also understand where some of my confusion came from. Basically when using ID I'd 'short circuit' the entire movement sequence. I'd play ID and throw down a stress  since there's no need for a cleanup (no template) and no need to check pilot stress (white maneuver). If you replace the stop maneuver from the ID card with a 1 straight and follow the card's instructions it becomes perfectly clear.

Now we throw Kanan into the mix. Final question. Why is the stress from ID placed after Kanan triggers? It seems that getting the stress from ID and triggering Kanan happens at the same time. I understand that Kanan's ability is a triggered event. Does that take priority over completing the sequence on ID?

I very much appreciate the time and patience that Draco and DigitalBusker expended on this topic trying to get me to see the proper sequence in using these two cards. To me it wasn't intuitive and for them not easy.

Edit: Just read Busker's last post and it answered my last question! HURRAH! Thanks again for your patience!

Edited by Stoneface
Added additional

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...