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Kleeg005

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As I've said on the S&V Podcast, X-Wing 1.0 has gotten too big for its britches and consequently I think we've reached the spot where we need a second edition to cleanup the cruft.

 

The addition of the Autothrusters Expansion Pack caused the designers to start adding more and more red dice, the addition of more red dice caused the need for more tanky ships, queue x7 title; we've now got 100+ unique game mechanics  that create emergent behavior resulting in game breaking combinations like Dengaroo winning the World Championship. 

 

We detailed the process of fixing it on the last podcast; frankly it isn't that hard. FFG is dragging their feet on the issue, maybe they are worried about killing the golden goose, and are content to keep bandaiding things with tactical FAQ patches. I can't wait for the FAQ to break 50 pages in length :-)

I think one of the things preventing a 2.0 reboot is what to do with all the consumers that have invested a TON of money into the game. If your new, improved version of X-Wing isn't compatible with the previous version there will be a huge backlash. Not thinking models but all the cardboard and cards.

 

I agree there needs to be a X-Wing 2.0 at some point.  Though I hope this version will be good until Movie 9 release.  The game is getting cumbersome with card/upgrade combos and the cost for getting new players in it.  Plus they can re-balance ships/pilots or start with the Clone Wars era.   If they do one then they should also sell the Wave upgrade cards in a separate pack rather packaging them in the ships.  It'll make it easier for new players to get access to the upgrade cards rather than buying into individual ships.

 

That being said.  If they do an X-Wing 2.0 then I'm personally out because of the money invested in it unless they sell separate upgrade packs for pilots/card/etc to update V1.0 to 2.0.  However, if its better for the longevity of the game then FFG is not afraid of doing this.  They've already done this for AGOT LCG 1st edition.

 

 

I agree here.  The design mentality has shifted so heavily between waves that certain things released early on hold no bearing to the newer wave's designs.  A lot of the game is irrelevant at a tournament level, and that's pretty lame. Primary Weapon Turrets (PWT) should have been designed as a Mobile Arc from the get go.

 

Everyone points to Dengar issue, but I place the blame on the Jumpmaster 5000 - it's PWT, insanely maneuverable with its ridiculous dial, incredibly cheap for the generic, one too many agility, etc, etc.  Then, Manaroo has no range restriction.  JM5k has to be the worst balanced expansion in this game.

 

Regen, PWT, stress, dials, and attack/agility values need to be reanalyzed for every ship, and the cost should be better set.  If/When they make a 2.0, I'd absolutely hope they take all the bloated mechanics and distill them into a smaller number of balanced abilities, and release transition packs to bring all of the current miniatures into the fold. 

 

 

 

 

I guess some people just want to play more thematic lists and well they don't get what they expect. Maybe a campaign could help like Armada, but I don't know how they will add objectives without shoving in them.

The problem is that FFG really doesn't think through their releases at all.  They have no intention of releasing a balanced game, that's beginning to show through in Armada as well.  I'm not sure if its intentional or through ignorance, but looking back, it almost feels as though they have a distinct moneymaking scheme: Never release a balanced product when you can charge for balance later.

 

 

Whaaa?  Armada is in a fantastic place.  Every single ship can viable in a build!

 

 

I must say I agree with you on several things. I also agree that we didn't need the Scum Faction (even though I play some Scum too but mostly because Boba Fett). But the most important is that I don't think the power creep is the major problém. I think it's the BLOAT!

 

Every wave we got new abilities, new - potentially game changing - upgrades and new powerful pilot abilities. I often like the new stuff but in certain amounts, I think it's just stepping sideways. Did we really needed "mobile arc"? Did we needed Tractor beam? Do we need abilities which mess with the deployment?

 

And I also agree with you on seeing way too much ships on the tables, which were never seen in any of the movies. Especially on the Scum side.

 

Mobile arcs are fantastic!  If you ask me, they're not the problem.  The problem is that they're coming after primary weapon turret mechanics.  PWTs should have been mobile arcs from the get go.  

 

 

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I am seeing a lot of good and positive ideas here. My thanks to you all.

I think what I will take away from this here and now is that I need to work with the owner of my FLGS. Step out of my comfort zone (I am a strong introvert), and try to organize a league of some kind. While there are other options, other locations not too far from me, this one has too many advantages for me to give up on it so easily. It's not like there aren't X-Wing people there; they're just not playing X-Wing. Just need to tempt them back.

Cheers

Edited by Kleeg005

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I am seeing a lot of good and positive ideas here. My thanks to you all.

I think what I will take away from this here and now is that I need to work with the owner of my FLGS. Step out of my comfort zone (I am a strong introvert), and try to organize a league of some kind. While there are other options, other locations not too far from me, this one has too many advantages for me to give up on it so easily. It's not like there aren't X-Wing people there; they're just not playing X-Wing. Just need to tempt them back.

Cheers

Another thing is to invest in a personal relationship with some of your local X-Wing Players... Not talking dinner parties either. Just a cellphone-txt type of "hey, we playing XWING tonight?" friendship that transcends "Star Wars Night" at your FLGS. My local meta is strong, and I still reach out frequently to shore up confirmed XWING as SWDestiny has taken a chunk out of consistent XWING play.

 

Edited by lazycomet

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The point of a game is to have fun, get to know people, and maybe learn something. What do you like about the game? Take that, and run with it. Find people that like the same parts you do, and organize your game around those parts. HeyChadwick pretty much summed it up.

That said, This:

And that probably requires players to step past the 100 pt death-match dogfight.

If people aren't having fun playing that way then sure. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the 100 point death match, regardless of what some people here think.

I optimize. That's just the my personality and the way my brain works. I need everything to be as efficient and as optimized as possible. That means I love flying competitive lists. It's just the way my brain works. That doesn't mean I won't play other formats, but I like making my lists efficient and deadly. So I gravitate towards powerful combos. That's just the way I am, and if someone is a casual player, that's fine, but I shouldn't be told I'm playing the game wrong just because I love 100/6.

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Note: This comes from a former competitive Magic player.

 

[...]

 

Having said all that the problem all (somewhat) skill based, low variance games have is what I would call "player creep." Imagine being a world class chess player and sitting down against a series of bar-room irregulars. Would you have much fun playing them? No, because they don't challenge or engage you. 

 

[...]

 

I would not disagree that there is 'player creep' but I would not think that is the only or most dominant issue.

 

Another big difference that impacts the game, as I'm sure you know, is that Chess hasn't changed since the 15th century. Yet X-Wing, it's pieces, rules and rule clarification changes every few months. Some feel this keeps the game alive, others feel it add a never ending growth of added complexity and murky decisions that need to be memorized beyond the rule set and the various pilots and upgrade cards.

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I am seeing a lot of good and positive ideas here. My thanks to you all.

I think what I will take away from this here and now is that I need to work with the owner of my FLGS. Step out of my comfort zone (I am a strong introvert), and try to organize a league of some kind. While there are other options, other locations not too far from me, this one has too many advantages for me to give up on it so easily. It's not like there aren't X-Wing people there; they're just not playing X-Wing. Just need to tempt them back.

Cheers

Not sure if you have a Facebook group going for your area.  If not create one and give it to folks to join up.  We have one in our area and we use it to coordinate getting together.  I post threads on the Facebook group to help folks with judging movement, etc or when I see neat articles posted on X-Wing Reddit TMG, etc.

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Another big difference that impacts the game, as I'm sure you know, is that Chess hasn't changed since the 15th century.

...never ending growth of added complexity and murky decisions that need to be memorized beyond the rule set and the various pilots and upgrade cards.

 

I understand those issues. I am assuming (shame on me) people who choose games that update regularly take this into account when making their choice. And truly the "added complexity" is very little for most people. The basic framework doesn't change, the most effective/efficient/potent use of the framework does. Adding upgrades that change how you interact with the framework doesn't really increase complexity and doesn't take memorization; you simply read what is on the card and do what it says. Now if you have designs on playing for competition it'll serve you well to memorize the most commonly played cards and combinations thereof, but you don't need to know what Saboteur does. There is, at any given time, relatively little that requires memorization, even in highly competitive play (at least Magic is like that). It doesn't matter what 2/3 of legal Magic cards do in a constructed tournament; no one uses them. Does a new player trying to get into competitive X-Wing need to know how people used to fly Fat Han or how Wedge and Outmaneuver interact? Probably not. Does a casual player really need to know or care about the interaction of Manaroo and Mindlink? Not really, they can just read the cards when they play against someone using them. 

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And that probably requires players to step past the 100 pt death-match dogfight.

If people aren't having fun playing that way then sure. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the 100 point death match, regardless of what some people here think.

As far as X-Wing 2.0 goes.  If I have to spend more then $50 to update everything I own to be 2.0 compatible, I'm done and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority will feel the same way.  Not that 2.0 is actually the magic bullet that some people seem to think.

 

 

You are correct that there is nothing wrong with the 100 point death match.  My point is - there is so much more than that!  :mellow:

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With the ever increasing popularity of X-Wing and influx of new players comes the inclusion of a more hyper-competitive mentality at the FLGS.  Forget the Store Championships, Regionals, Nationals, Worlds and other tournaments....I'm talking about casual or league X-Wing play at the FLGS.

 

A few years ago it wasn't uncommon for a new player to show up with a core set excited to learn and play with their Star Wars ships...that rarely happens anymore.  Walk into a FLGS today with X-Wing play ongoing and it's likely you'll see strictly meta lists on the tables and players preparing for the next tournament.  

 

With the ever-increasing volume of ships, pilots and upgrades available in the game it's a shame to see how few are actually being fielded at the FLGS at any given time.    

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Another big difference that impacts the game, as I'm sure you know, is that Chess hasn't changed since the 15th century.

...never ending growth of added complexity and murky decisions that need to be memorized beyond the rule set and the various pilots and upgrade cards.

 

I understand those issues. I am assuming (shame on me) people who choose games that update regularly take this into account when making their choice. And truly the "added complexity" is very little for most people. [...]

 

I've actually found it to be otherwise. I play casually and with a casual group. When you get several ships per person I often hear 'oh I forget my pilot ability' or 'upgrade'. I still find it hard to follow the Oicunn Double Tap. And when one sees the FAQ at nearly the same length as the Rule Set I think it is fair to say complexity has set in. With all of the upgrades and pilot combos there is a lot going on unless you want to play a trimmed down version of X-Wing, even casually.

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I'm gonna guess that after Ep 9 is released that FFG will 'upgrade' the game to be focused on the sequel ships and perhaps start rereleasing the OT ships with adjusted stats and upgrades, perhaps related to the side story movies.

Either that or X-wing 2.0 with be prequel based. Just because.

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No reason to believe they would

And honestly, we only need a 2.0 to remove agility from the game as it is basically the reason everything is ******. You dont get this nonsense in armada

Otherwise you dont need 2.0, just a core set with all the xwing fixes in the,same box else WOE to the new player :P

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I don't think "newbie" is being used as a slam. I still consider myself a noob compared to many here and I've been playing for two years. Someone who shows up with a fresh out of the box TFA core set is a newbie. He may know the rules by heart and memorized the FAQ but that doesn't translate into gaming experience. Like DailyRiich said it's how he's treated by the experienced player that matters most.

 

No you're probably right it might just have been an expedient, but my inclination is to say that 'noob' (to a greater extent than 'newbie') is a slighly derogatory term for a new player.  I don't think I would call a new player a noob to their face across a table and I don't think I would use it when talking to another experienced group member. Maybe its just a hangover from early naughties internet gaming.

 

But your last point is completely aligned with mine - the treatment of experienced players to new players is probably the single most important thing for building up your gaming group.

 

From my (admittedly limited) experience, "newbie" or "newb" tends to refer simply to someone who is new to a game.  "Noob" refers to an irritating player who refuses to learn.  Yes, they all refer to relatively unskilled players, but the former are merely descriptors while the latter is an insult.  ("N00b", with 0's, is not actually a word, and excessive use of it tends to indicate that the speaker himself is a noob.)

This is what happens when an old fart tries to use the vernacular of the young. Lol

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Sorry, but I don't know how to introduce this game to people anymore.

 

This, to me, is the crux.  The game has simply gotten incredibly complex, and power-creep is real and significant ... and to some extent the second assertion's cause is my first assertion.  I haven't run into a brand new player in months.

 

I know X-Wing's popularity went insane last year, and I know it's still riding high.  But players are leaving in noticeable numbers.  Here in the Bay Area, the single most devoted player/organizer I have ever seen (hi, Bernie) has all but completely left the game.  Others of us -- two years ago, even last year, devoted players, playtesters, and evangelists for the game -- have scaled way, way back.  (If it weren't for my completionist neurosis, combined with find Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, I'd be fully divested.)

 

The frustrating thing about it is that FFG seems to be doubling down on the complexity and the power-creep.  (IMO, the power-creep is probably a nudge from Organized Play toward shorter games.  Don't be surprised if tournament game times are shortened to 60 minutes soon.)  I can't really explain why, unless they just don't see an option otherwise to keep the game alive.

 

(BTW, if anybody doubts power-creep -- I don't see how, but in case -- give two skilled players winning lists from 2013 and 2017 and have them go head to head.  It won't be pretty.  There was a day when we were flabbergasted by, for example, the raw power of Aggressors, and considered them to be clear power-creep.  Nowadays ... enh, they a'ight.  Barely.)

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That's a really good idea of giving 2 skilled players winning lists from both time periods.   There definitely has been power creep.  I'm not saying the meta is wider open then before, but tbh, that's not saying much!  As I'm now drunk, I'll say that when a game called X-wing doesn't believe that X-wings are worth a darn, something is wrong.   

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That's a really good idea of giving 2 skilled players winning lists from both time periods. There definitely has been power creep. I'm not saying the meta is wider open then before, but tbh, that's not saying much! As I'm now drunk, I'll say that when a game called X-wing doesn't believe that X-wings are worth a darn, something is wrong.

you think thats bad?

Armada doesnt even really have Armadas!

It does have good xwings, though

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As I've said on the S&V Podcast, X-Wing 1.0 has gotten too big for its britches and consequently I think we've reached the spot where we need a second edition to cleanup the cruft.

 

The addition of the Autothrusters Expansion Pack caused the designers to start adding more and more red dice, the addition of more red dice caused the need for more tanky ships, queue x7 title; we've now got 100+ unique game mechanics  that create emergent behavior resulting in game breaking combinations like Dengaroo winning the World Championship. 

 

We detailed the process of fixing it on the last podcast; frankly it isn't that hard. FFG is dragging their feet on the issue, maybe they are worried about killing the golden goose, and are content to keep bandaiding things with tactical FAQ patches. I can't wait for the FAQ to break 50 pages in length :-)

I think one of the things preventing a 2.0 reboot is what to do with all the consumers that have invested a TON of money into the game. If your new, improved version of X-Wing isn't compatible with the previous version there will be a huge backlash. Not thinking models but all the cardboard and cards.

 

I agree there needs to be a X-Wing 2.0 at some point.  Though I hope this version will be good until Movie 9 release.  The game is getting cumbersome with card/upgrade combos and the cost for getting new players in it.  Plus they can re-balance ships/pilots or start with the Clone Wars era.   If they do one then they should also sell the Wave upgrade cards in a separate pack rather packaging them in the ships.  It'll make it easier for new players to get access to the upgrade cards rather than buying into individual ships.

 

That being said.  If they do an X-Wing 2.0 then I'm personally out because of the money invested in it unless they sell separate upgrade packs for pilots/card/etc to update V1.0 to 2.0.  However, if its better for the longevity of the game then FFG is not afraid of doing this.  They've already done this for AGOT LCG 1st edition.

 

 

I agree here.  The design mentality has shifted so heavily between waves that certain things released early on hold no bearing to the newer wave's designs.  A lot of the game is irrelevant at a tournament level, and that's pretty lame. Primary Weapon Turrets (PWT) should have been designed as a Mobile Arc from the get go.

 

Everyone points to Dengar issue, but I place the blame on the Jumpmaster 5000 - it's PWT, insanely maneuverable with its ridiculous dial, incredibly cheap for the generic, one too many agility, etc, etc.  Then, Manaroo has no range restriction.  JM5k has to be the worst balanced expansion in this game.

 

Regen, PWT, stress, dials, and attack/agility values need to be reanalyzed for every ship, and the cost should be better set.  If/When they make a 2.0, I'd absolutely hope they take all the bloated mechanics and distill them into a smaller number of balanced abilities, and release transition packs to bring all of the current miniatures into the fold. 

 

 

 

 

I guess some people just want to play more thematic lists and well they don't get what they expect. Maybe a campaign could help like Armada, but I don't know how they will add objectives without shoving in them.

The problem is that FFG really doesn't think through their releases at all.  They have no intention of releasing a balanced game, that's beginning to show through in Armada as well.  I'm not sure if its intentional or through ignorance, but looking back, it almost feels as though they have a distinct moneymaking scheme: Never release a balanced product when you can charge for balance later.

 

 

Whaaa?  Armada is in a fantastic place.  Every single ship can viable in a build!

 

 

I must say I agree with you on several things. I also agree that we didn't need the Scum Faction (even though I play some Scum too but mostly because Boba Fett). But the most important is that I don't think the power creep is the major problém. I think it's the BLOAT!

 

Every wave we got new abilities, new - potentially game changing - upgrades and new powerful pilot abilities. I often like the new stuff but in certain amounts, I think it's just stepping sideways. Did we really needed "mobile arc"? Did we needed Tractor beam? Do we need abilities which mess with the deployment?

 

And I also agree with you on seeing way too much ships on the tables, which were never seen in any of the movies. Especially on the Scum side.

 

Mobile arcs are fantastic!  If you ask me, they're not the problem.  The problem is that they're coming after primary weapon turret mechanics.  PWTs should have been mobile arcs from the get go.  

 

 

I know I didn't put it that clear but that was my point. If there is plenty of ships with PWT, what's the point in mobile arc? 

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That's a really good idea of giving 2 skilled players winning lists from both time periods. There definitely has been power creep. I'm not saying the meta is wider open then before, but tbh, that's not saying much! As I'm now drunk, I'll say that when a game called X-wing doesn't believe that X-wings are worth a darn, something is wrong.

We could probably get Paul and Nand to do that match on Vassal. Enough likes and I will try to organize it with Podcast Alliance sponsorship. Poor Paul, Biggs Walks The Dogs is gonna get mauled by Dengaroo. Edited by sozin

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I don't think there's a problem with the game. I was getting down on the game a couple months back because Palp Defenders seemed too good and playing anything else didn't seem worth it. Pretty much, every week since then, I've brought a new list to play and it's really opened my eyes. I think the game is more strategic now and player skill is more important. All the tools are there.

The problem with the power creep argument is it's not taking into account how strong the best lists were relative to everything else. I think the metagame is more open now than in many previous metagames. Right now, there is a clear top tier but it's not stronger relative to the rest of the metagame than in previous metagames. We have a pretty mature player base where I play on Fridays and it seems like a different list is winning every week. We've had Palp Defenders, Fangaroo, Bossk/Dengar and four X-Wings win the last four weeks. There is literally not a repeat ship winning in the last month. It's a solid player base, as well. We have 3-4 regional top 8 players (from 100+ player regionals) playing every week. Our scene keeps growing because some of us play everywhere locally and make friends from a lot of stores and are constantly talking about the game and recent changes. That means new players aren't caught off guard when they see how the game really is. We try to give them real lists up front so they get a real taste for the game instead of just getting tied to ships because they like them thematically. This is a strategy game after all.

The game is more calculating now. You can't just out PS a Whisper and auto-win your match anymore because everyone has the tools to win if they bring something reasonable and fly excellently. There's less slop in the game now. I think since the game has gotten more calculating and grindy, some players don't like that style of game. We've moved on from every game being a joustfest. The style of the game has changed. It was hard for me to see without getting out of my box and trying new things. Players need to evolve with the game. I've been playing since Wave III and I have more appreciation for this game now than ever before.

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X-Wing needs an FFG sanctioned Campaign system badly. Not just a single campaign but a framework which people can use to bring cinematic moments and moments from their imagination to life. Scenarios can be developed to include any ship or upgrade. I have nothing against tournaments or the tournament scene (in fact I rather enjoy them) but everyone and anyone can enjoy campaigns. HOtAC isn't bad but it's too limited.

Edited by charlesanakin

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As I've said on the S&V Podcast, X-Wing 1.0 has gotten too big for its britches and consequently I think we've reached the spot where we need a second edition to cleanup the cruft.

 

The addition of the Autothrusters Expansion Pack caused the designers to start adding more and more red dice, the addition of more red dice caused the need for more tanky ships, queue x7 title; we've now got 100+ unique game mechanics  that create emergent behavior resulting in game breaking combinations like Dengaroo winning the World Championship. 

 

We detailed the process of fixing it on the last podcast; frankly it isn't that hard. FFG is dragging their feet on the issue, maybe they are worried about killing the golden goose, and are content to keep bandaiding things with tactical FAQ patches. I can't wait for the FAQ to break 50 pages in length :-)

 

I've listened to that podcast, and while I agree that there are many things to remember, that doesn't make them "too many". All those "different" mechanisms are there, but often, they're not really that different at all. And you complained about Autothrusters not helping non-boost ships against TLT, when back in the day the arc dodgers were eliminated from the meta (before Autothrusters) by PWTs and TLTs arrived after Autothrusters. Without Autothrusters, there'd never have been TLTs in the first place, because they'd have been too strong.

 

X-Wing today is the result of many tweaks back and forth that indeed result in emergent behaviour, and that emergent behaviour is what makes the game interesting to Johnnies everywhere. I'm a Johnny. Without plenty of lovely comboes to find and explore, a game is much less interesting to me. But on the other hand, you don't have to be a Johnny, and you can netdeck all you like.

 

Taking a step back, I think here's the most important argument against X-Wing 2.0: Unless you dumb down the game tremendously, it will still have many interlocking parts, and it will inevitably also have emergent behaviour unless you ditch half the ships. Counting wave 10 and all epics including C-ROC, we currently have 49 ships. Unless you just say "all those Z-95 and TIE/ln and TIE/fo are now exactly the same" (which would be stupid) there will still be stronger and weaker combos. And unlike X-Wing 1.0, where things grew over now five years after release (and years before that), in X-Wing 2.0, they'd have to get everything right at once. If GW has shown us one thing with the editions they kept releasing, it's that if they do a new edition, it'll start from scratch, and it'll be unbalanced for the first year or two.

 

You said in the S&V podcast that a good thing about a new edition is that it would not have an FAQ. Well, guess what, it would still need an FAQ. It just wouldn't be there to start with. They'd need to find out what is clear and unclear first, and they'd need to find out where the rules are too rigid or not rigid enough. Playtesting can only do so much. It's absolutely not the case by any necessity that an X-Wing 2.0 would be better-balanced than what we have. The only certainty is that there'd be problems introducing the thing, and people would be confused, and shops would have stock they can no longer sell because it's outdated, and people would mix up rules between editions for a year or two at least.

 

Also, I'd stop playing. It's what I did when GW replaced my then-beloved Wh40k 2nd edition with a 3rd edition that did everything differently, and worse.

Edited by haslo

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The only really bad thing that's happening IMO is that, due to power creep at the very top,the power gap between 'top tier competitive' and 'casual' lists grows wider and wider, which in turn makes it harder and harder for both players to face each other.

 

When I started (wave 6), I quickly built myself a Brobots List as the most competitive Scum option (I'm a Scum fan) after fiddling around with a couple of casual lists as a learning experience. I've ran that list in most of my games for a long time (until Jumpmasters were launched) against both casual and competitive lists. Even if I did win many of my games, imost of them still felt like a game with an uncertain result, even against some casual lists.

 

Nowadays, if I put Dengaroo on the table against the same time of casual lists, I will likely win without my opponent getting a real chance to touch Dengar. It will be as one-sided as it gets.

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"Manaroo: focus

Asajj: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or evade

Fenn: [has focus from Mindlink]: either target lock or boost/barrel roll, occasionally double up on focus.

Manaroo: passes a focus to either Asajj or Fenn (whoever is getting attacked), then gets one back via Mindlink.

Asajj: gain a free evade via stress mechanic and Latts."

vs

Garven Dreis can give his focus token to a ship range 1-2 after he uses it.

That's what's wrong with X wing now.

Why even bother with actions at all? Just change the rules to say the newest ship gets as many tokens of its choice, and stress doesn't do anything to it.

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Personally I think we will see a big return to corduroy when Wave 10 drops. And I mean full pleats, like its 1989. You thought the power creep was bad now? Just you wait, Wave 10 will drop and all us denim guys will be scrambling to either fit in with the crowd and avoid the pleatings, I mean beatings, or we'll just start doing the rain cuffs again and only stand in puddles of a certain depth.

Yeah this new pants meta is gonna suck!

Oh... Wait.

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