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CornyTDog2000

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Could work, but it's tricky. Two key thoughts:

  1. Generally, you'll want to go either completely dark or completely light. Realistically, a Jedi/light sider won't work with a Sith/dark sider except for the most trying of situations, but those kinds of teams don't last long, and quickly break down. This is role playing, and should be presented as such.
  2. Many, many times, when a player wants to play a dark sider, it's not to explore the character, but to give them an excuse to act like a jerk. Many games have ended because one player acts like a jerk to other players, claims innocence because, after all, it's "in character," and other players get fed up with it and the game ends.

So, get past those two things, and it might be for an interesting game.

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During the clone wars plenty of Fallen Jedi have worked with their follow light side jedi together, the light siders often did not even noticed how far the corruption had spread and many might argue that most of the order went to the darkside already before Order 66 killed the corrupted Order. 

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  1. Many, many times, when a player wants to play a dark sider, it's not to explore the character, but to give them an excuse to act like a jerk. Many games have ended because one player acts like a jerk to other players, claims innocence because, after all, it's "in character," and other players get fed up with it and the game ends.

 

This ^

At a minimum there ought to be some kind of team loyalty, people even they consider off-limits for betrayal.  Maul and Ventress had their allies.  You could argue that even Palpatine needed people to do his bidding, and the Empire would have fallen apart sooner if people felt like he would backstab them at any moment.

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... acts like a jerk to other players,...other players get fed up with it ....
 
Ran Master of the Fallen Fortress 2-3 years back for PFRPG, for my sons and some of my eldest son's friends... one player of my son's, running a Chaotic Good PC, decided to torture - cutting their ears off etc etc and eventually killing the Pathfinder (Plot Hook) NPC.. all the other players objected, The player insisted, even I insisted it was out of character/alignment, player still insisted... injected a quick, off the cuff, 'Revenge of the ghost' dream, where the Pathfinder Society hunted down the troupe and killed them all. Then, had the PC wake up, covered in sweat having fallen out of bed.. wrapped up the game. Tried talking to the player away from the table.. a few days later, he still couldn't see the problem, so I told him you not mature enough to play yet. Didn't have him in the group again, also the other players didn't want him in the group.
 
Actually, bumped into the player a few weeks back, now an 'adult' according to UK law. He asked me if I'd run PFRPG, I replied with 'I don't ever want you in my gaming group, whether I'm playing or GM'ing as 1) I think you'll still a pull a stunt like you did for 'Master...' and 2) I still think you're a c***. First impressions last :lol:
 
Basically, you can have some great mates, but at the gaming table they turn into complete c****. I had a friend back in school also a gaming buddy. Great mate but became a power-gamer, minimaxing, had to win at all costs. Looking back I think he had anger management issues. Every time he rolled a 1, botched, got injured he'd throw a wobbly, One game he just walked out over rolling a 1 on his damage die, :lol:
 
No.. don't mix good vs evil PC's, especially Force Users.
 
p.s. sorry went of on one there....

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  • Many, many times, when a player wants to play a dark sider, it's not to explore the character, but to give them an excuse to act like a jerk. Many games have ended because one player acts like a jerk to other players, claims innocence because, after all, it's "in character," and other players get fed up with it and the game ends.
 

This ^

At a minimum there ought to be some kind of team loyalty, people even they consider off-limits for betrayal.  Maul and Ventress had their allies.  You could argue that even Palpatine needed people to do his bidding, and the Empire would have fallen apart sooner if people felt like he would backstab them at any moment.

No one is off-limits for betrayal, utilitarianism is the choice of moral compass and loyalty. As long you are useful for Palpatine you are save, so better stay useful and profit from all the opportunities the empire offers. You can do whatever you want as long as the usefulness for the people around you, especially those above you in rank is there. That's the empire. That's the essence of the evil of the empire.

That works in groups as well. Jerk face will be tolerated as long as the groups overall profits from him, the second he becomes useless he is out or dead. I want you to roleplay that. ^_^

@ExpandingUniverse. Not the chaotic neutral character was the problem, but the rest of the group. How card can it be to say NO with your character to another character. Conflict within the party is a great source for roleplay, actually one of the best sources for roleplay. Sometimes there will be blood, but usually majority decisions are expected by even the most chaotic evil characters, because going into a 5vs1 has little survival perspectives and walking up bound, naked and abandoned in some wood is not a nice future perspective either.

Edited by SEApocalypse

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a Jedi/light sider won't work with a Sith/dark sider

While it's very unlikely that Jedi and Sith would work together, being a light side or dark side force user doesn't automatically put you into either of their camps, especially in the default AoR timeline and beyond, nor is it a given that light siders are good and dark siders are evil. If they aren't rigidly dogmatic (the major fault of the Jedi) or psychopathic (the major fault of the Sith) and have compatible motives, there's really nothing preventing light/dark force users from working together. Edited by Garran

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This is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

The Dark Side, in Star Wars, is not really yin yang thing. It's just evil. The movies and just about all the canon sources suggest that this is a morally dualistic universe in which one can draw on either the force of good or the force of evil.

This particularly becomes problematic in a storytelling game for a few reasons. The first is that playing evil characters in my experience makes people act like jerks. See above comments. But the jerkiness can extend beyond that - in other games I've seen where people play evil characters, the games quickly devolve into some really disturbing territory - people role playing torture and celebrating when they make the victim squeak, people playing games that objectify and demean women as simple objects of casual violent and sexual lust etc. playing evil is ugly business and I guess what I'd say is to make sure you're doing it for a good reason.

The second is one more simply applicable to the Star Wars universe. The Dark Side explicitly enslaves its practitioners. I'm not making a categorical statement about evil, but about the Dark aside in the Star Wars mythos. The Dark Side limits the free will of its users, the way that heroin addiction does except worse since it operates at a spiritual level instead of a psychological one. It literally, not just figuratively corrupts. Just look at the emperor. Look at Kylo Ren and his uncontrollable emotions. Or Vader whose only actions are really obeying the emperor, obeying his desire to find Luke, and being redeemed - the first point at which he really makes his own decision is when someone intercedes and gives him the chance to return to the light side.

GMing that could be really compelling, don't get me wrong. But it's first not really a group campaign (evil is a solitary business), and second involves playing a character in the hope of redemption. And it involves, on the gems part severely limiting the free will of the player. Most players looking for a fun time on a Saturday night arent looking for that. They just want to play a badass antihero.

Which gets to one of the things I love about force and destiny: that it recognizes morality as a spectrum, while still respecting that the Dark Side enslaves those who turn to it. Because what I'm saying here is NOT that a gym should make all her players play angels. The story of any Jedi worth reading is a story of a journey and the very heart of Star Wars is in a battle between the good and the evil, both externally and internally. I like faulty error prone broken characters because that's what people are. It's why the Kedi order had some of the foolish restrictions (imho) that it did: because human souls in order to be human must have free will to do wrong. But the Dark Side takes that away

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If the only force user in your group is a dark sider it doesn't necessarily have to clash with the rest of the troupe's motivatiions. Take a group of greedy smugglers and the darksider who ruthlessly bargains and uses his force powers might fit right at home. Or perhaps think of a rebel cell, fighting to free some slaves, the force-user himself was a slave or has lost some relatives or friends to slavery. Noone in the group will sy anything when he starts tossing the slaver around that just hit the poor Twi'lek mother. Such characters can think they do the right thing, but their ways are extreme. A commander darksider might use ruthless tactics, but he gets results for teh rebellion. There isn't really a rules commitee anymore that can hinder those people from turning to the dark side. Ezra in Rebels also came pretty close to the dark side sometimes.

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When a player chooses to either create a Force Sensitive character or to buy into a Force Sensitive spec for the first time, I take the time to explain the Morality system and how it should be viewed both narratively and mechanically. It is a tool for the player to tell the type of story they wish to tell with their Force Sensitive character. Morality is less of a mechanical benefit/detriment than Duty or Obligation and the F&D Core Rulebook even talks about how it's narrative focused.

 

If you want to play a dark side Force user, your character needs to make decisions that will accrue enough Conflict to lose Morality at the end of the session. Generally, that's around 6+ points of Conflict per session. If you want the opposite alignment, then you have to refrain from the temptations of using the dark side to fuel your powers, refrain from selfish actions & try to do the morally selfless thing in situations. You can even tell the classic "falls to the dark side" or "redemption" stories. It's entirely up to the player how this goes about based on their decisions in the game & Conflict/Morality loss should never be viewed as punishment from the GM. It is simply a reflection of how much their actions aligned them towards the light or dark sides of the Force.

 

There is an acceptable amount of Conflict one can accrue while trying to be a light side Force user based on the averages, which is 5 or less Conflict per session. Narratively, just like Jedi in the movies, they are not perfect people. They have flaws and they do things that do not match their beliefs from time-to-time. Do not be afraid to use the dark side results on the Force dice when you feel you absolutely need to. Sometimes that could mean saving a life.

 

A warning I will put out there is that Force user or not, it is highly suggested that you discourage your players from making their characters attack or fight one another in the game. Players can become very attached to their characters & it creates a divide in the group when something like this happens. Unless it is strictly a storyline that the players are willing to explore and all involved have discussed it with the GM and are okay with their characters potentially severely injuring or killing one another, it is a really bad idea IMHO.

 

As far as dealing with dark side aligned players in parties, YMMV as that is subject to the groups, their character compositions & such. It might be best to explain all of the Morality stuff to the other players so they can fully grasp what this means, that their crew-mate isn't suddenly going to become an Adversary they have to face.

 

When the party consists of more than one Force sensitive character, that might introduce some interesting and dramatic dynamics in the party, it might also be another situation in which you can step in as the GM and explain things for the players. So in the situation that someone wants to be a lightsider and another wants to go dark, the lightsider would be taking conflict for being in the presence of the dark character when they make highly selfish actions as shown on the Conflict table. The lightsider will ONLY accrue this point of conflict if they do nothing and watch the situation happen before them. If the lightsider attempts to convince the other to stop or even intervenes, albeit ineffectively, they will not gain any Conflict from the action the darksider takes, because an attempt was made. The lightsider also will not gain Conflict if they are not able to prevent the action, such as when the character has been incapacitated or when the party splits up. In this way, you could create a story with a secret darksider that only does selfish things when away from the eyes & ears of his crew.

 

Now if a situation like this persists over time, it is up to the GM if they wish to dish out additional Conflict to the lightsider for allowing the situation to persist as it is. There can be a bit of a fun dynamic to things, such as having a loose cannon character that likes to solve situations violently and a level-headed character that prefers to solve situations without taking up arms. There are some character relationships like this, such as Cyclops & Wolverine from the X-Men comics.

 

Ultimately, it is a storytelling tool for the players & GM to craft a fun, engaging story about Force users of any alignment.

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The Dark Side, in Star Wars, is not really yin yang thing. It's just evil. The movies and just about all the canon sources suggest that this is a morally dualistic universe in which one can draw on either the force of good or the force of evil.

This runs up against two problems: one, the game doesn't treat it that way - you can end up as a dark side character without having done anything evil or even particularly bad - and this is made worse by the number of GMs who, judging by the regular threads about it here - want to make everything into a morality trap and/or treat morality (along with that conflict chart) in a way that puts even Lawful Stupid to shame. (And then we have the corresponding complaints that the PCs won't do anything lest they generate conflict - no wonder!)

Two, the movie characters are extremists, and that goes for the Jedi as much as the Sith - and it's therefore a bad idea to take them as all-encompassing representations of light side and dark side users. (That, and I'd call the movie-era Jedi ambivalently good - their good angle was pretty half-hearted and some of their attitudes were more evil than not.)

The movies also run up against the problem of claiming one thing while representing another, and then hanging a false dichotomy on it for good measure. A good example here is anger. The emperor tells Luke to 'use his anger', but what's he's really trying to get Luke to do is lose himself to it, much like Ren. Anger can be felt for reasons that aren't selfish and can be channeled in ways that aren't destructive though, something that neither the Sith or Jedi represent, address, or even acknowledge, the former because they'd rather wallow in it and the latter because they'd rather repress it - which works out really well for them when it bubbles up regardless and they don't know how to cope.

I'm going to cut myself off there before the pages-long rant bursts out because I'm too tired to write it well, but if the setting wants light/dark to be equivalent to good/evil then it does a pretty ham-fisted job of it.

Edited by Garran

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To start i will reiterate that a character can have Morality of 69 and STILL be a Dark Side Force User. The redemption doesn't happen until they cross the 70 threshold.

 

GroggyGolem is absolutely on the money saying you need to discuss this with the whole group. what you need to find out is the purpose for this character wanting to play a Dark Side character. Don't let them be A holes, right from the start. You need to set the tone of the campaign, a "Dark Side" campaign is entirely feasible, but "Light Side" is everyones default and an evil SOB simply doesn't fit in that style of game.

 

A very functional approach for a Dark Side character is to play the redemption story. The character has gone through life being selfish; stealing, lying, cheating, even being violent. But the turning point in their life comes right at the start of the campaign, in meeting the other PC's their life changes. This achieves a couple of important things, it creates a bond between the PC's, it sets a tone to how the PC will be played (doing more good than bad) and therefore sets the expectations of all the Players.

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It's also the stance George Lucas very clearly took when asked about it, if you put any stock in that. He refers to the Dark Side as being like a cancer on the force. Making it so there was only one Jedi left alive, and no Sith whatsoever, brought balance to the force finally.

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Certainly it is the view he took on it, at the time. "The Maker" has changed his mind on subjects in the past, such as after he released the special edition OT in theaters, Greedo shoots & then some years later you see him wearing a Han Shot First t-shirt.

 

A few years back he was interviewed about whether he would make anymore films and he replied with some bitter comments about how he would just be judged by his fans for it so why would he (this was while he was secretly writing out his version of Episode 7 and during the talks for the Disney purchase of Lucasfilm). He's not unknown to lie or change his mind is all I'm saying there.

 

The stance that Star Wars Rebels seems to be taking, and it is currently part of the Star Wars Canon, is that balance in oneself, between your light and dark sides, is a thing. It was also brought out in the final arc of Clone Wars, when Yoda had to learn to stop rejecting his dark side and accept it for what it was, let go of his ego and realise that he wasn't above strong motions and he was letting his fear rule him. That didn't make the dark side disappear, it just allowed him to balance himself, as he was no longer denying a part of himself. If you go back to Empire, even, Yoda felt it was necessary for Luke to be tempted by the Dark Side & overcome it. So to an extent, there has always been a sort of idea that Emotion & calmness have their places with force users but one can't strictly hold too much to either the calm or the emotion... One makes you detached from others, without empathy & you begin to feel arrogant, above others. The other makes you reckless, dangerous, unable to rule your own actions & also arrogant with the idea that you're superior. There has to be a balance.

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Sidenote: The final arc, the force planet and all was a task for Filoni from George Lucas, Lucas wanted those episodes. He basically brought Filoni his ideas about that force planet and Filoni had no idea how he should make such a absurd concept into some good episodes. 

 

Not to speak of the father, the son and the daughter episodes ;-)

Edited by SEApocalypse

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Personally I haven't bothered with the Morality system and don't really want to.  As I haven't run a F&D game yet and limited the powers so far to those in EotE and AoR mainly it hasn't really been an issue yet.  Everyone (NPCs included) use Light side pips by default even if they are meant to be Darksiders to ensure balance and I keep track of how often a character calls on the Darkside with the intention of Bad Stuff happening to those who use it too much or whatever is dramatically appropriate.  Just find it easier and more appropriate for the more morally gray adventures of EotE.  

 

I do intend to introduce more Force powers and even run a F&D campaign but I will probably divorce the Powers from the Morality system where needed (Protect/Unleash for instance) and just ignore Morality.  I tend to treat Darkside like the Warp corruption in Warhammer, something that corrupts and twists you and prefer to use GM-fiat to decide if it is affecting someone rather than let morality mechanics decide.

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I actually think the morality system works quite well. I made my own set of rules of how many conflict to apply to certain doings by my characters additionally to the one in the GM section of FaD . And if someone tries to weasel himself through certain moralities (caution/fear for example is ripe with that, players tend to argue what is caution and what is actually his character being frightened or worried) I tend to be pretty harsh and put another conflict point on it. Staying on the light side ain't easy!

 

And now I tend to listen what the player wants the PC's personality to be like and apply a set of morality myself to it. So I jave the control as teh GM. I even gave one player two sets one time, since his PC's personality was dead on for them. Two sets of course mean double the possible conflict in certain situations.

 

Don't forget that the players slide down or up the morality scale by the difference between the 1d10 roll and the amount of conflict points generated. E.g. a PC that generated a whooping 18 conflict in a session get's at the very least 8 dark side points!

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I actually think the morality system works quite well. I made my own set of rules of how many conflict to apply to certain doings by my characters additionally to the one in the GM section of FaD .

 

If you felt you had to come up with your own additional rules, isn't that a sign that the rules in the book don't quite work?

 

I'm not arguing one way or another, but your statements seem contradictory.

Edited by Stan Fresh

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I actually think the morality system works quite well. I made my own set of rules of how many conflict to apply to certain doings by my characters additionally to the one in the GM section of FaD .

 

If you felt you had to come up with your own additional rules, isn't that a sign that the rules in the book don't quite work?

 

I'm not arguing one way or another, but your statements seem contradictory.

 

 

I actually didn't make up my own rules, I just enforce the Morality harder, than suggested in the books. And as Scientology's Nr.1 guy below you said, that's exactly what they are: suggestions, to use as you see fit.

Also I have to correct myself there as my vocabulary is sometimes limited, because my native langage is german. What I meant was per se not rules, but actually guidelines how to apply conflict. I use the RAW, but have added some situation on which I came across.

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