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Sciencius

Time for a Tie fighter title belonging to the galactic empire?

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Nice unnecessary passive aggressive ****-stirring.

 

It's called disagreeing with a daft idea that comes up a lot when it isn't thought through and gets shot down just as frequently.

 

Case in point: Black Squadron TIE was pretty crap then Crack Shot came out.  That was an increase in diversity  Now there were reasons to play Academy Pilot and also reasons to play Black Squadron TIE.  Introduce the 'Obsidian Patrol' with an appropriate ability/cost (thining for five seconds: rerolling a green dice dice for each Obsidian TIE at range 1) and now you've got a reason to run Academy Pilots (raw cost, flexible squad building), a reason to run Obsidian TIEs (they cost more but die less), and a reason to run Black Squadron TIEs (the EPT).  That's more diversity not less.

 

Obsidian Squadron Pilots are a very cheap pilot skill boost over Academy Pilots: they get used when a swarm of what would otherwise be Academies needs to PS kill PS2 or PS1. Neither are really seen much at the moment because the current metagame isn't kind to two die attacks: Crackshot Black Squadron Pilots are much more expensive but they can punch through high agility so we see them at the moment. The composition of the TIE swarm changes with the metagame as it always has.

Give an insane buff like that to Obisidian Squadron Pilots and you achieve two things. If the meta ever shifts back to a position where the Academy Pilot is favourable again then Obsidian will take its place because you've buffed it. The tactics for a TIE swarm become limited by your Range 1 restriction, forcing the TIEs to fly in blocks or be penalised. Furthermore, by forcing the Obsidian Pilots to come as a three TIE unit you limit mixed compositions in a mini-swarm and effectively turn Obsidian TIEs, a ship that can slot into a lot of lists because of its low cost, into a 39 point package.

 

The diversity reduction comes from how this idea forces composition. To take an example from earlier, provide a buff to Luke and Biggs when they're run together. If they're being buffed to a balanced state when together then they aren't in a balanced state when apart: you're forcing them to be run together or not at all to be viable. Why on earth would you do that when you could just as easily create a buff (as FFG has invariably done in the past) that affects the ships individually? You're effectively forcing ships into bundled packages in a game which has a fairly small number of ships anyway.

 

I can see no sensible argument for buffing specific groups of ships when you could buff those ships individually.

 

Indeed. The point is to improve the pilots who aren't used, by giving them a leg up. A lot of them have a 'thematic' place they should be used, and - more importantly - lack the ability to be 'fixed' by modifications or elite upgrades (because they already have an auto-include of the former or don't have the latter).

 

A "Saber Squadron" formation isn't there to reduce the ways you can take Soontir Fel, because you can still take him wherever you like and he becomes no less good. What the formation needs to do is provide a rules benefit such that fielding Fel's Wrath in the vicinity of Soontir Fel becomes as 'worth it' as another elite interceptor.

 

Or you could improve Fel's Wrath without imposing a condition that he has to be in the same list as Soontir Fel. There's no reason to impose list homogenising build restrictions where you don't need to.

Edited by Blue Five

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If you create a buff for a ship you buff all pilots of that ship.  It's not rocket science.  To borrow the example just given: currently Fel's Wrath never gets played but you'd rather buff all TIE Interceptors than just the pilots that aren't used.

Anyway, I had a suggestion to make and I made it.  It's all pissing into the wind and nothing we say here has any impact on the real world.

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If you create a buff for a ship you buff all pilots of that ship.  It's not rocket science.  To borrow the example just given: currently Fel's Wrath never gets played but you'd rather buff all TIE Interceptors than just the pilots that aren't used.

Anyway, I had a suggestion to make and I made it.  It's all pissing into the wind and nothing we say here has any impact on the real world.

 

I never said I'd rather buff all pilots for a ship, I said it's daft to lock those buffs behind specific squad compositions as you were suggesting rather than to just individually buff what needs buffing.

 

You could easily buff a pilot directly. A upgrade with a restriction of PS4+ and no EPT slot would affect Kir Kanos, Fel's Wrath and Lieutenant Lorrir only. An upgrade that's antisynergic with PTL wouldn't serve power up the prevailing TIE interceptor build. You could even hypothetically write "Fel's Wrath only" on a card.

What benefit is there to making that buff conditional to running specific other pilots with it?

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Flavour, theme, aesthetics... soft benefits like that.

 

Which is also the reasons behind era restrictions, prohibition of mirror matches, painting requirements, doubling the point cap and plenty of other things that don't benefit the gameplay itself. Balance changes are primarily for the benefit of high level play where the little cost errors really make a difference and high level play is about the game rather than the skin. Thematic restrictions belong in house rules and special formats, they don't belong in the fabric of the game balance.

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title: replacements

cost: 4 points

when this ship is removed from play, remove or add face down damage cards to this ship until there are two. remove all upgrade cards and then "deploy" this ship from your board edge

 

 

 

because why not let swarms be swarms

 

(I goof, but actually I want to try this for ***** and giggles)

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title: replacements

cost: 4 points

when this ship is removed from play, remove or add face down damage cards to this ship until there are two. remove all upgrade cards and then "deploy" this ship from your board edge

 

 

 

because why not let swarms be swarms

 

(I goof, but actually I want to try this for ***** and giggles)

 

Not a bad idea - if balanced appropriately. The Reinforcements rule for TIE fighters in the starter set missions adds an interesting dynamic - provided the "respawning" fighter is an academy pilot (or equivalent) and not packing other upgrades (so not unique, or laden with missiles, or whatever).

 

You'd need to think carefully about how you claim victory points for a kill, though, especially if a ship can respawn more than once. Do you get points for only the first kill? for each kill? Do you declare victory if all the original ships are wiped out, even if respawns are left? What happens if you 200-50 someone to tournament margins of victory?

 

Most likely I'd use a variation on the Hounds Tooth title - allowing you to redeploy from the board edge undamaged, but discarding the card allowing you to do so in the process. Provided the cost of the card increases the value of the ship enough to justify needing to kill it twice to get the points, it should work out okay.

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Maybe the new condition cards mechanic would be a good idea.

Something that helps swarms hit so maybe:

During the shooting phase, for every ship after the second that performs an attack against the same defender, reduce the defender's agility by one, to a minimum of one.

Works on small swarms and evenaturally turns off once enough have been destroyed.

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Maybe the new condition cards mechanic would be a good idea.

Something that helps swarms hit so maybe:

During the shooting phase, for every ship after the second that performs an attack against the same defender, reduce the defender's agility by one, to a minimum of one.

Works on small swarms and evenaturally turns off once enough have been destroyed.

swx60-fanatical-devotion.png

 

no reason we could have other sources for the same unique condition, only thing is that you can't have it up on more than one ship at the same time

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title: replacements

cost: 4 points

when this ship is removed from play, remove or add face down damage cards to this ship until there are two. remove all upgrade cards and then "deploy" this ship from your board edge

 

 

 

because why not let swarms be swarms

 

(I goof, but actually I want to try this for ***** and giggles)

 

Not a bad idea - if balanced appropriately. The Reinforcements rule for TIE fighters in the starter set missions adds an interesting dynamic - provided the "respawning" fighter is an academy pilot (or equivalent) and not packing other upgrades (so not unique, or laden with missiles, or whatever).

 

You'd need to think carefully about how you claim victory points for a kill, though, especially if a ship can respawn more than once. Do you get points for only the first kill? for each kill? Do you declare victory if all the original ships are wiped out, even if respawns are left? What happens if you 200-50 someone to tournament margins of victory?

 

Most likely I'd use a variation on the Hounds Tooth title - allowing you to redeploy from the board edge undamaged, but discarding the card allowing you to do so in the process. Provided the cost of the card increases the value of the ship enough to justify needing to kill it twice to get the points, it should work out okay.

 

 

 

"discard all upgrade cards" - is itself an upgrade card.

 

tbh its not something I'd like to see or use in a competitive game, but its fluffy and stupid fun and could be a good thing for HOTAC if they players are getting too overpowered.

 

(3 pts because its 1/3 the cost of an academy and you get 1/3 the hull)

 

really I don't like the idea of the incredibly disposable TIE Fighter having a title, pilot's rarely flew the same TIE mission after mission because they would routinely be damaged and in need of repair. That being said, I think if title cards for imperial TIE's were to be a thing then maybe you could look at the list of TIE variants that still used the TIE/ln chassis...

 

 

TIE/M2

4 points

when attacking, range 3 counts as range 1 and vice versa.

 

 

there's a much better way to word this but - the TIE/M2 was armed with turbo lasers instead of standard laser cannons - much better at long range, but horribly inaccurate at short range, makes a literal sniper ship, as you need to be close to them to get auto thrusters and the extra agility etc.

 

 

 

TIE/fc

6 points

your action bar gains the (target lock) icon - friendly ships may use your blue target lock token as their own when performing secondary weapon attacks. when attacking if your attack hits, cancel all dice results and then deal one damage to the defender.

 

 

the TIE/fc had advanced targeting systems which were mainly used to guide ordinance ships in on their targets, but because of this they also had reduced firepower.

 

 

TIE/rc

8 pts unique

you may not equip this card if your pilot skill is 2 or lower.

When you perform a focus action you may perform a free evade action. When another friendly ship at range 1-2 reveals its dial. If it would bump an enemy ship or overlap an obstacle, it may change its manoeuvre to another of the same speed.

 

 

The TIE/rc was deployed ahead of fleets to provide intel on enemy movement and navigation through asteroids and debris fields. It was also much more manoeuvrable than the TIE/ln and harder to hit as a result. It was also not flown by inexperienced pilots. Might be too powerful? who knows? I like the other two ideas better tbh.

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Maybe the new condition cards mechanic would be a good idea.

Something that helps swarms hit so maybe:

During the shooting phase, for every ship after the second that performs an attack against the same defender, reduce the defender's agility by one, to a minimum of one.

Works on small swarms and evenaturally turns off once enough have been destroyed.

 

I was thinking of something very similar to this.

A title of some sort, or condition, or whatever. When you attack a ship, any further attacks on the target this turn require the target to spend an extra evade to cancel a hit. (unsure whether it should cap out at 2 evades to cancel a hit, or continue growing. probably cap out at 2) So basically as the target gets attacked more, it has a harder time dodging.

FFG might need to produce a new type of token - 'under fire' or 'already engaged' or something.

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I was thinking of something very similar to this.

A title of some sort, or condition, or whatever. When you attack a ship, any further attacks on the target this turn require the target to spend an extra evade to cancel a hit. (unsure whether it should cap out at 2 evades to cancel a hit, or continue growing. probably cap out at 2) So basically as the target gets attacked more, it has a harder time dodging.

FFG might need to produce a new type of token - 'under fire' or 'already engaged' or something

 

This grouped fire idea is a similar philosophy to Swarm Leader.

While I'd like to see swarms be better against agility the game's already been balanced the other way around: Swarms melt low agility by being more cost efficient than the high powered weapons that punch through thick armour high agility. A mechanic that allows them to combine fire to spike up their damage without a setback like Swarm Leader's (unique) runs the risk of making them too powerful.

 

I'd probably do it by creating a unique Action: EPT that inflicts a defensive penalty to an enemy ship in your firing arc at Range 1-2 but costs both your action and your attack. It's situationally useful: not great in lists with small numbers of ships who'd just take the attack but A-wing swarms could make good use of it. TIE swarms could put it on Youngster and allow any TIE to use it. As it's a unique condition you'd only be able to apply it to one ship a round but any TIE in Youngster range could use the ability.

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I'd probably do it by creating a unique Action: EPT that inflicts a defensive penalty to an enemy ship in your firing arc at Range 1-2 but costs both your action and your attack. It's situationally useful: not great in lists with small numbers of ships who'd just take the attack but A-wing swarms could make good use of it. TIE swarms could put it on Youngster and allow any TIE to use it. As it's a unique condition you'd only be able to apply it to one ship a round but any TIE in Youngster range could use the ability.

Any buff that requires an EPT is going to be mediocre for TIE Swarms, and Z-95 Swarms. A-Wing swarms might love it, tho.

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I'd probably do it by creating a unique Action: EPT that inflicts a defensive penalty to an enemy ship in your firing arc at Range 1-2 but costs both your action and your attack. It's situationally useful: not great in lists with small numbers of ships who'd just take the attack but A-wing swarms could make good use of it. TIE swarms could put it on Youngster and allow any TIE to use it. As it's a unique condition you'd only be able to apply it to one ship a round but any TIE in Youngster range could use the ability.

Any buff that requires an EPT is going to be mediocre for TIE Swarms, and Z-95 Swarms. A-Wing swarms might love it, tho.

 

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Spray and pray (or "prey" for the pun of it)

When attacking with a primary weapon, if you rolled at least two hits, and your target is in arc at range 1-2 of at least two other ships with this title, one of your damage results cannot be canceled by defense dice.

It encourages swarms while also encouraging methodical flying. I'm thinking 0 point title. And the 1-2 title allows things like the extra green or auto thrusters to still have value.

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I was thinking of a title that benefits the generics and perhaps the ones with EPT. Also note that this could be used on other ships too, not only TIEs! yay

2674537ad8.jpg

Edited by HOBOBOI

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I be in favour of this. Anything to help the swarm come back from he brink of extinction.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I have a couple of ideas.

1. Make the title tie in with Swarm Leader and/or squad leader. Something like; Swarm Member - "if at range one of a friendly squad leader or swarm leader, roll one extra die when atracking." Or as that could be rather powerful.. possibly too much so the same restriction but change one focus to a hit. Final option to help the defense also.. same restriction but when attacking or defending change one blank to a focus so a focus action is still needed.

Issue here is that this paints a massive bullseye on the leader ship. Take that out and the swarm is back to square one and we all know how quick Howlrunner gets taken down generaly. So what about a second title to work alongside the mook title. This one is unique and should reflect that any one surviving long enough to lead TIE's is probably pretty good at staying alive (and using his noob mates as cover lol) .

"Unique - Veteran Instructor - At the start of the combat phase assign one Evade token to your ship for each Swarm Member at range one. You cannot have more than X (I'm thinking 2?) evade tokens."

Howlrunner would love the latter. Focus - Evade - Evade if at least 2 wingmayes in place. Even if it was just one token rather than 1 for each ship.. fous evade is nothing to sniff at. The rest of the swarm would get a boost to offense with the former, especially when Howl is that leader but other TIE/ln aces would also work well in different ways.

Edited by kopmcginty

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Giving a slight edge to a swarm or squadron that stays in proximity to each other makes sense.  (Where the swarm/squadron is a minimum of 3 of the same type?)  It does seem to me that a squadron should also get an advantage from staying close to it's squadron leader. Whereas I don't see a swarm being so linked to a leader, more of benefiting from a 'hive' approach.  Should a squadron that loses it leader behave like a swarm as long as they stay proximal?

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Maybe a Formation upgrade could work for imperials. Imperials have 1 TIE Formation slot and for the most part it effects TIEs.

 

Example, Pursuit formation. When one of your TIEs attack a ship with another friendly TIE once per round you may reroll one of the defenders die. 3 points.

 

Or 

 

Form up, When attacking if of your TIE has two other friendly TIEs in range 1 roll 1 additional attack die. 4 points.

Edited by Marinealver

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