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Sciencius

Time for a Tie fighter title belonging to the galactic empire?

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The decline of swarms has a lot to do with the fact that blocking is just not as effective as it used to be. Previously you block a ship and leave it actionless then the other TIE feast on it. Now there are ships that get actions regardless of blocking. Once this building block of swarm play was removed the whole house came crashing down. If folks like Dallas Parker can't be effective flying a swarm anymore then they need to be looked at.

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The decline of swarms has a lot to do with the fact that blocking is just not as effective as it used to be. Previously you block a ship and leave it actionless then the other TIE feast on it. Now there are ships that get actions regardless of blocking. Once this building block of swarm play was removed the whole house came crashing down. If folks like Dallas Parker can't be effective flying a swarm anymore then they need to be looked at.

 

tie fighter carnor jax plz

 

 

no, seriously I'd be all over that

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Blocking is a tertiary issue but it certainly compounds the other problems (bigger attacks that one-shot TIEs very reliably, tougher defences that ignore 2 dice attacks more easily).  In the past TIE players have been able to bump their way around a lot of things that would otherwise be problems but that just doesn't work so well any more.

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The decline of swarms has a lot to do with the fact that blocking is just not as effective as it used to be. Previously you block a ship and leave it actionless then the other TIE feast on it. Now there are ships that get actions regardless of blocking. Once this building block of swarm play was removed the whole house came crashing down. If folks like Dallas Parker can't be effective flying a swarm anymore then they need to be looked at.

 

tie fighter carnor jax plz

 

 

no, seriously I'd be all over that

 

In this current meta I'd have Carnor Jax in any ship at all!*

* maybe not a Punisher.  There are limits.

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The decline of swarms has a lot to do with the fact that blocking is just not as effective as it used to be. Previously you block a ship and leave it actionless then the other TIE feast on it. Now there are ships that get actions regardless of blocking. Once this building block of swarm play was removed the whole house came crashing down. If folks like Dallas Parker can't be effective flying a swarm anymore then they need to be looked at.

 

tie fighter carnor jax plz

 

 

no, seriously I'd be all over that

 

In this current meta I'd have Carnor Jax in any ship at all!*

* maybe not a Punisher.  There are limits.

 

 

at least it has boost :P

 

plus there's always the "well, he had to start from somewhere!" excuse

 

only after you survive the deathtrap that is the Tie Fighter do you go onto cooler, sleeker deathtraps like the interceptor

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Do you have a link? or a source to that?

It's been said in a couple interviews, as well as him saying that 12 points is the cheapest a ship will ever be.

Also per Mathwing, the Tie Fighter is tied for the most cost effective ship in the game. It doesn't need a cost reduction, not that such a thing is actually an option.

A title that does something to help a swarm may not be bad but the idea that they need a title because they don't have one is not a strong argument.

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It's the same problem as the A-wings face currently - 2red dice don't pack enough of a punch.

Maybe discussing the differences between these two types of swarms would be helpful to figure out what a title might consist of?

 

The A-Wing is more of an elite ship, reflected by the additional EPT. Their swarm has lower numbers.

The TIE Fighter is a cheap throwaway that's dangerous in numbers.

How could a title reinforce this notion without being overpowered?

 

It's ok to lose a TIE.

Maybe give a damage boost if a wingman gets destroyed?

 

TIEs are hard to hit.

Maybe give a defensive boost similar to the x7? (would be amazing if somebody tested this - a simple title that gives an evade after moving 3+ speed, or maybe below 3 to represent the evasive maneuvers? How hard is it to hit a TIE with evade+focus? Of course exactly as hard as it is to hit a defender!)

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Do you have a link? or a source to that?

It's been said in a couple interviews, as well as him saying that 12 points is the cheapest a ship will ever be.

Also per Mathwing, the Tie Fighter is tied for the most cost effective ship in the game. It doesn't need a cost reduction, not that such a thing is actually an option.

A title that does something to help a swarm may not be bad but the idea that they need a title because they don't have one is not a strong argument.

 

Per Mathwing the Tie academy is set to 100%, but I remember Major Juggler calculated the x7 Defender effectiveness (when Veterans appeared) to be 107%. So the tie fighter is nolonger the most cost effective ship.

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ltbjBFP.jpg krfsruv.jpg

 

1YUP3KW.jpg h78kZtc.jpg

 

Technically, TIE/gt has a missile launcher, not a bomb rack. That should be a mod all TIEs can take anyway though, add a Missile slot. Something like this:

UNSmB3q.jpg

 

Since the M2 "Big Gun" was supposed to be Turbolasers, you might make that even more dangerous, like making it 4 attack or allowing the automatic focus to crit... but I don't know if the defender doubling agility like the Single Turbolaser hardpoint would help the TIE much.

TIE/gt has a bomb chute of the same design as the Bomber, so yeah, it can drop bombs. And shoot missiles. Just not as many as a full sized Double Chili Dog.

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Biggest reason i stopped playing ties long before this meta was green dice

Not just mine

See, you figure flying swarms properly and concentrating fire would be a rewarding experience, but nope saving throws just **** on your dreams

See, ARMADA did this properly by replacing green dice with defensive tokens that can only be used once per round (twice per round, but you discard the token forever on the 2nd use) allowing tiny things l8ke squadrons and cr90s to focus down even the most durable capital ships

You dont get this experience in xwing, sadly. Agility provides a constant defense to high numbers of low dice attacks

Really takes the fun out of the swarm imo

Which is why we need a thing that allows you to "mark" targets

Ie, when another friendly ship fires and the defeder is in your firing arc, give the attacker fanatical devotion

Done

Makes concentrated fire actually do something

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Thrawn Loves You, 1 pt

Title, TIE Fighter only, Galactic Empire only

Add one shield token to this ship. It's ok, the Grand Admiral cares about his pilots. He also doesn't want you stupid pilots blowing up his ships like soap bubbles. You're welcome.

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Which is why we need a thing that allows you to "mark" targets

Ie, when another friendly ship fires and the defeder is in your firing arc, give the attacker fanatical devotion

Done

Makes concentrated fire actually do something

 

As former TIE and current A-wing swarm player - you're completely right!

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Swarms really are not that difficult to fly.  As somebody who was originally put off by the all "ooooooh, it's a swarm!  Swarms are Hard!" comments online, when I finally played one it was no more difficult to learn than anything else.

Set up correctly, learn a couple of rules, you're done.

The only hard part is reforming a swarm midgame once they've all been scattered.

This cracks me up... "Swarms are easy to fly" while also posting they need to have the x7 title earlier in the thread.

Personally I have never been disappointed squeezing an academy tie into my list, that 12pt blocker/dice sink is fantastic.

Now tournament level running a swarm of ships is mentally exhausting and you tend to start making mistakes. I am thinking of running a 5 ship list at regionals that I am undefeated with but am worried by game 6+ in a day I will start the bump fest and just screw myself.

My opinion the tie fighter is quite good, just don't try and swarm them if you have to play 8+ games in a day or you won't win, not because of the ship because of player fatigue (now matter how cocky you are).

It does not need a title, it's a good ship. If it did get a title I would only hope it's minimal and mostly changes the functionality of the ship it really does not need a power boost.

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You dont get this experience in xwing, sadly. Agility provides a constant defense to high numbers of low dice attacks

Which bizarrely enough should be how you take down an agile ship: lots of attacks rather than a few big ones.

 

 

tell that to ye ole torp scouts

 

or party bus

 

or Rau

 

or basically anything in the meta ATM

 

if you through more dice than can be evaded, you stand a much better chance of doing damage as opposed to hoping the dice don't take their liberties with your game plan

 

larger dice pools with sometimes agility mitigation are the name of the game right now, with the exception of Omega Leader because he has a small dice pool but really goes hard on mitigating dice

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Swarms really are not that difficult to fly.  As somebody who was originally put off by the all "ooooooh, it's a swarm!  Swarms are Hard!" comments online, when I finally played one it was no more difficult to learn than anything else.

Set up correctly, learn a couple of rules, you're done.

The only hard part is reforming a swarm midgame once they've all been scattered.

This cracks me up... "Swarms are easy to fly" while also posting they need to have the x7 title earlier in the thread.

Personally I have never been disappointed squeezing an academy tie into my list, that 12pt blocker/dice sink is fantastic.

Now tournament level running a swarm of ships is mentally exhausting and you tend to start making mistakes. I am thinking of running a 5 ship list at regionals that I am undefeated with but am worried by game 6+ in a day I will start the bump fest and just screw myself.

My opinion the tie fighter is quite good, just don't try and swarm them if you have to play 8+ games in a day or you won't win, not because of the ship because of player fatigue (now matter how cocky you are).

It does not need a title, it's a good ship. If it did get a title I would only hope it's minimal and mostly changes the functionality of the ship it really does not need a power boost.

 

Being easy to fly and being good are two very different things.  As somebody who found success playing swarms in big tournaments last year... just don't get so easily fatigued.  X-Wing tournaments are pretty short by competitive gaming standards, once you've done 30 hours of Magic in a 36 hour period you're not quite so daunted by the idea of *gasp* a sixth whole game in one day!

Edited by Stay On The Leader

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I wasn't saying that number of attacks is better than magnitude of attacks, I was saying the opposite. Agility currently protects you from low power attacks with the way to punch through it being high power attacks. It behaves like armour rather than evasion.

Yeah, it's one of the few persuasive arguments about the idea of X-Wing 2.0, which is to separate your chance of hitting from the amount of damage done when you do hit.  Same would go for defense.

I think at some point we'll see new dice added to X-Wing, say a red dice with more blanks but some double hits that sort of thing.  FFG game design tends to bleed over between games as the designers all talk to each other - we've seen it in IA and Destiny and it'll come to X-Wing.

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No, new titles to ships from older waves are a way to adjust these to todays meta.

 

Are they?

 

 

Yes. I think FFG have done an excellent job in avoiding a "flatout" "-x" point adjustments, but rather offer some new options and penalties, and I would like them to continue doing so. And I find it interesting to discuss that design space and discussions about such options, and that was the point of this thread ;-)

 

 

No, new titles to ships from older waves are a way to adjust these to todays meta.

 

 The only flat buffs in the form of deliberately undercosted autoinclude titles are the ones received by the TIE advanced and the TIE defender. Those ships had issues from the moment they were released.

 

The other titles are sidegrades.

 

  • The A-wing and the TIE interceptor receive additional slots under pilot skill conditions but they have to pay for the upgrades they put in those slots.
  • The Y-wing and the TIE bomber titles are sidegrades that grant an ability at the cost of another.
  • The Light Scyk title reduces the price of the Scyk at the cost of durability.

 

Well, I certainly consider the combination of titles and upgrades released in the Aces and Veterans expansions as "bufs" or "fixes".

 

Your distinction into "flatout upgrades" versus "sidegrades" and classification of "titles" feels a little artificial:

X7 defender title: you get an evade and -2, at the cost of no cannons or missiles. So not a "flatout" upgrade.

A-wing title: the cost of adding an ept-slot is easily worth 2pt by itself, and we now have several 0pt ept's and I think we will get more. 

Tie Interceptor title: the combination of stealth device and autothrusters on a high ps pilot with palp backup, worth some points imho.

Y-wing title: essential to the old stress-hog and that combination enabled by the title also made that ship easily worth its point cost.

Heavy scyk recon is also a buf (2pts for a 3pt hull upgrade). Light scyk enables you to swarm a mindlink list with 6 ships.

Point is, we rarely see the non-title ships as the titles makes them better, so yes, new titles to old ships from older waves are a way to adjust these to todays meta. 

Edited by Sciencius

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Swarms really are not that difficult to fly.  As somebody who was originally put off by the all "ooooooh, it's a swarm!  Swarms are Hard!" comments online, when I finally played one it was no more difficult to learn than anything else.

Set up correctly, learn a couple of rules, you're done.

The only hard part is reforming a swarm midgame once they've all been scattered.

This cracks me up... "Swarms are easy to fly" while also posting they need to have the x7 title earlier in the thread.

Personally I have never been disappointed squeezing an academy tie into my list, that 12pt blocker/dice sink is fantastic.

Now tournament level running a swarm of ships is mentally exhausting and you tend to start making mistakes. I am thinking of running a 5 ship list at regionals that I am undefeated with but am worried by game 6+ in a day I will start the bump fest and just screw myself.

My opinion the tie fighter is quite good, just don't try and swarm them if you have to play 8+ games in a day or you won't win, not because of the ship because of player fatigue (now matter how cocky you are).

It does not need a title, it's a good ship. If it did get a title I would only hope it's minimal and mostly changes the functionality of the ship it really does not need a power boost.

Being easy to fly and being good are two very different things.  As somebody who found success playing swarms in big tournaments last year... just don't get so easily fatigued.  X-Wing tournaments are pretty short by competitive gaming standards, once you've done 30 hours of Magic in a 36 hour period you're not quite so daunted by the idea of *gasp* a sixth whole game in one day!

You have had success with tie swarms in tournaments becausr you are the god of x-wing. But you think it needs the x7 title...

You counter your own arguments by being unbelievably arrogant.

If you had success flying a tie swarm in tournaments why do you think it needs a drastic buff?

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