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Biggs' Balancing Bonanza!

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The general consensus seems to be that a fix for the T-65 Xwing is very difficult to do because the designers need to work out how it would interact with Biggs. In fact, from what I understand, a lot of design issues have to "deal with Biggs" at some point.

 

So I figure we can start putting our ideas to balance Biggs so that the T-65 can get some love.

 

Here's my idea:

 

FAQ:

The text on this card should be proceeded by:

"as long as you are not stressed"

 

 

Whilst not nerfing Biggs into oblivion by any means, it does give the opponent some options to deal with him - stressbot, tractor beam into debris, flechette cannon/torpedo, Assaji Ventress etc.

 

Also makes him not want to K-turn if he survives that long.

 

 

thoughts? suggestions? throw them all here and lets see what we can come up with.

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I would go different way if i were to nerf him in this direction (even if i think he is fine) - make him stressed for each time he 'protected' the ship, makes more flav sense (of course knowing hes going to die for his frienda he will be stressed af), and flav=gameplay.

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Hard counter cards have already been printed for him, but no one seems to want to use them.

They are:

Tractor Beam

Assault Missiles

Any ion weapon

Any AOE bombs (eg. Seismic charges)

Ruthlessness

The only counters to Biggs here are the bombs. And not just the AoE variety - any kind of bombs in general can target whatever they're aimed at. They're not attacks, so Biggs doesn't work. That said, the kind of lists that Biggs tends to fly in are high-hp, low agi ones and bomber lists typically have trouble with those, Biggs or not.

As for the others you mentioned, they are not counters to Biggs. And if they are, they're very soft ones. Biggs isn't meant to survive for more than a couple of rounds, except perhaps when he's paired with Kanan. His job is protecting more valuble targets from destruction during the crucial first engagement. None of the above would prevent him from doing exactly that.

 

Tractor Beam is useless. You won't be able to barrel roll him away from his squadmates because they'll typically cover his flanks, preventing that. Boosting him won't get him out of R1 of them either. That would only leave TB as a tool for softening him up. Which would be good... if R4-D6 didn't cap his damage to 2 anyway (unless you're lucky with crits). Not to mention TB isn't exactly free and if it comes at the expense of having one more actual attack, it's just not worth it.

 

Assault MIssiles might do a point of damage to his squadmates but the principal target will still be Biggs himself. You won't be able to kill anything else as long as Biggs is alive. Granted, having that extra point of damage on the other targets would be efficient, but AMs sadly suck versus pretty much any list that doesn't fly in formation (that is most of them), so unless you know you're gonna face Biggs, taking them is simply impractical. The same goes for Ruthlessness.

 

Ion weapons are utterly worthless against Biggs. Firstly they are typically limited in the amount of damage they can do, which only delays Biggs' death. And limiting his movement to 1 straight doesn't matter much because his squadmates will still be in R1 of him even if they move at speed 3 (which is rare in rebel formations anyway - they typically do move slowly on their own). It would only start having effect over several turns, and Biggs isn't meant to live that long.

 

Real counters to Biggs would involve mass use of secondary weapons that require target lock to fire. Those could indeed lock onto another target and strike it down bypassing Biggs. You could also play with stuff such as proton rockets, using a maneuverable high-PS fighter to control range and ensure your desired target is in R1 but Biggs is not. Unfortunately there are very few effective lists that have enough ordnance to destroy another target with such weapons alone. And if ordnance is only carried on one or two ships, firing at something else than Biggs will typically result in your fire being split between two different targets, destroying neither. That is a rookie mistake that may well cost you the game.

 

Personally, whenever I fly with Biggs I'm mostly worried about getting hit with a gazillion crits, which is pretty much the only thing that can wipe Biggs out very quickly, meaning he can't do his job for long enough for me to succeed.

 

EDIT: as for Biggs being a problem with balancing T-65 - I don't buy it. The only thing that would significantly strengthen Biggs would be boosting his survivability. You don't want to invest too much in him anyway, because he WILL die rather quickly. You don't want to pay to boost his maneuverability either, because he doesn't really want to dodge enemy fire. You can improve T-65 in dozens of ways and as long as you don't make it more tanky it won't affect Biggs in any significant way.

Edited by Lightrock

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In an interview last year Alex Davy said that everything they designed for rebels had to be designed around Biggs, and tested with Biggs centric lists.

Which sounds as though it may lead to rebel pilots and ships not being as good as they would be if Biggs weren't such a powerful card. Hence the thread asking about possible balances to make Biggs easier to work around, making a buff for the t65 and rebels in general more likely.

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kinda stuff and nonsense considering Biggs hasn't been the least bit necessary for rebels to successfully place well in competitive tournaments, especially not the last two worlds

 

not counting that one cool Norra/Nera/Biggs list

 

 

considering the current enviroment of x7s, mindlink and dengaroo, there is absolutely zero need to worry about Biggs from a design perspective

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I thought about it for a moment and i think there is a Biggs paradox here.

If you buff t-65 to make it very strong, you suddenly want to take them out first (if their defenses will stay the same). It makes you want to shoot Biggs regardless of his ability, renders him useless and makes him the worst t-65. My mind is blowing.

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I thought about it for a moment and i think there is a Biggs paradox here.

If you buff t-65 to make it very strong, you suddenly want to take them out first (if their defenses will stay the same). It makes you want to shoot Biggs regardless of his ability, renders him useless and makes him the worst t-65. My mind is blowing.

If you buff T-65 to be very strong, Wedge, Wes and the like will start showing up again. And you will want to kill them first. Meaning Biggs will become even more valuable protecting his buddies. Your mind is saved.

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The Biggs Paradox is more that stuff which is underpowered without Biggs, can potentially be overpowered WITH Biggs.

 

An illustrative if non-RAW example was the 200 point multi-faction game that some friends from my local club played in late last year.

 

Biggs plus Kanan, docked Phantom, Manaroo, Serissu, Fenn.  Biggs usually defending with 3 or 4 dice with focus/evade and a defensive reroll whilst everyone else takes advantage of not being shootable to murder things with impunity, and half the list has Mindlink...

 

This contains a number of elements that aren't amazing solo, but become great when you chuck Biggs into the mix, particularly the combo with Serissu - a relatively fragile defense buffer who doesn't work on her own defence would normally mean an obvious first target, especially when equipped with an HLC.  But Biggs...

 

Introducing things which properly synergise with Biggs leads to a twofold problem for Rebels - those thigns will be OP with Biggs, but still a touch underpowered without.  Introducing good aces generally risks being similar, because you can weather the opening engagement before letting loose, near-guaranteed.

 

I'm a touch worried about Rex/Biggs/Kanan for that reason.  Neither Kanan nor Rex are particulartly worrying alone, but when you're ending up shooting a single die at Biggs unless you're at R1 or you're a Phantom/Ghost/Upsilon, and sucking a TLT blast per round, possibly two if you can fit a Phantom, but I don't think you can) it's going to become a tough nut to crack, not to mention a wildly negative play experience.

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An illustrative if non-RAW example was the 200 point multi-faction game that some friends from my local club played in late last year.

 

not just non-RAW, but not possible due to points and cross faction

 

makes for a rather poor example

 

 

the other thing is about ships that are released UP because of Biggs fallacy

 

this is stuff and nonsense because we have ships such as Poe, Miranda, Corran Horn; Dash etc. that have proven to be more than effective with or without the big stache backing him it

 

and considering the potentially abusive Kanan + Rex combo was created despite Biggs existing, I highly doubt he has as much of an impact in the design process as some would believe

Edited by ficklegreendice

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An illustrative if non-RAW example was the 200 point multi-faction game that some friends from my local club played in late last year.

 

not just non-RAW, but not possible due to points and cross faction

 

makes for a rather poor example

 

 

the other thing is about ships that are released UP because of Biggs fallacy

 

this is stuff and nonsense because we have ships such as Poe, Miranda, Corran Horn; Dash etc. that have proven to be more than effective with or without the big stache backing him it

 

and considering the potentially abusive Kanan + Rex combo was created despite Biggs existing, I highly doubt he has as much of an impact in the design process as some would believe

 

The point is to illustrate that similarly synergistic combos are probably suppressed by Biggs' existence.  Something similar to Serissu is unlikely to come into Rebels, because of how synergistic it would be with Biggs, despite being fairly underpowered without him.

 

I'm really quite concerned about Kanan/Rex/Biggs.  Partly for power, but mostly because it'll make the game so **** BORING.

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew, tactical jammer etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Edited by ficklegreendice

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Yup inter-ship synergy is terrible that's why Manaroo, Mindlink and Palpatine suck.

 

Wait.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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Honestly I don't get the hoopla about Biggs and his ability being an "issue" with making a T-65 fix. If anything, he is one of the great pilots in the game that actually forces the player to consider key game aspects like range between your own ships as well as range of enemy ships. I have never had a NPE when facing a player fielding Biggs. Not once.

 

With the ridiculous things available in the game, are we sure Biggs is even a comparable issue? I will trade a ship I have to shoot at when a certain criteria is met over a ship which cannot be damaged by anything but 4 attack dice and bombs, or a ship which you can't shoot because it gets a free shot back and it has infinite offensive and defensive mods alongside that.

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew, tactical jammer etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Problem is, rebels dont have many self sufficient ships because they are all 1 and 2 agility, hence the Biggs-factor. Biggs next to a Bwing, gives that Bwing 2 agility for a few rounds basically.

 

 

The general consensus seems to be that a fix for the T-65 Xwing is very difficult to do because the designers need to work out how it would interact with Biggs. In fact, from what I understand, a lot of design issues have to "deal with Biggs" at some point.

 

So I figure we can start putting our ideas to balance Biggs so that the T-65 can get some love.

 

Here's my idea:

 

FAQ:

The text on this card should be proceeded by:

"as long as you are not stressed"

 

 

Whilst not nerfing Biggs into oblivion by any means, it does give the opponent some options to deal with him - stressbot, tractor beam into debris, flechette cannon/torpedo, Assaji Ventress etc.

 

Also makes him not want to K-turn if he survives that long.

 

 

thoughts? suggestions? throw them all here and lets see what we can come up with.

I would hate to see any nerf to Biggs. His ability is already limited to range 1 friendlies. That becomes a tough formation to fly with multiple ships with different dials. His ability is strong but it is limited, unlike some other abilities in different factions.

 

Making the T-65 strong offensively only makes Biggs a bigger target, like someone said, that kinda of hurts Biggs ability. I was thinking of running Biggs with the stressbot or M9G8, but then I was like "Now my opponent wants to kill Biggs first, I dont want that!" So I agree, making the T-65 strong offensively actually hurts Biggs.

 

What helps Biggs is any cost reduction or auto tokens. That is what is the problem. T-65s die fast and are overcosted, but a defensive boost needs to really be thought out for any T-65 buff.

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew, tactical jammer etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Problem is, rebels dont have many self sufficient ships because they are all 1 and 2 agility, hence the Biggs-factor. Biggs next to a Bwing, gives that Bwing 2 agility for a few rounds basically.

 

 

 

but that has absolutely JACK CRAP to do with Biggs

 

you wouldn't honestly believe they'd make a B-wing 2 agility if Biggs didn't exist

 

they need Biggs specifically because FFG ****** up on the math side of things (and because green dice in general are just a bad idea)

 

not that low agility is always lethal, though, you just need to be as awesome as a K-wing

Edited by ficklegreendice

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew, tactical jammer etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Problem is, rebels dont have many self sufficient ships because they are all 1 and 2 agility, hence the Biggs-factor. Biggs next to a Bwing, gives that Bwing 2 agility for a few rounds basically.

 

 

 

but that has absolutely JACK CRAP to do with Biggs

 

you wouldn't honestly believe they'd make a B-wing 2 agility if Biggs didn't exist

 

they need Biggs specifically because FFG ****** up on the math side of things (and because green dice in general are just a bad idea)

 

not that low agility is always lethal, though, you just need to be as awesome as a K-wing

 

I think if Biggs didnt exist they would have the freedom to do a Bwing title giving it 2 agility ala U-wing. I think they purposely gave Arcs 1 agility because of Biggs. Without Biggs, those ships would be DOA except C3PO/R2D2 Norra build. Nothing these days should be released with 1 agility unless it is backed up with 12 hull or comes with a defensive title.

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obviously synergistic combos aren't suppressed by Bigg's existence because they already exist (ie Kanan, Rex, Wes, Jyn and Jan crew, tactical jammer etc.)

 

at the end of the day, he's nowhere near the most concerning or polarizing bit of design space in the game

 

and synergy in general just usually sucks regardless. better just to build self-sufficient ships, which are what kanan and rex are. they just happen to be more annoying with Biggs around

Problem is, rebels dont have many self sufficient ships because they are all 1 and 2 agility, hence the Biggs-factor. Biggs next to a Bwing, gives that Bwing 2 agility for a few rounds basically.

 

 

 

but that has absolutely JACK CRAP to do with Biggs

 

you wouldn't honestly believe they'd make a B-wing 2 agility if Biggs didn't exist

 

they need Biggs specifically because FFG ****** up on the math side of things (and because green dice in general are just a bad idea)

 

not that low agility is always lethal, though, you just need to be as awesome as a K-wing

 

I think if Biggs didnt exist they would have the freedom to do a Bwing title giving it 2 agility ala U-wing. I think they purposely gave Arcs 1 agility because of Biggs. Without Biggs, those ships would be DOA except C3PO/R2D2 Norra build. Nothing these days should be released with 1 agility unless it is backed up with 12 hull or comes with a defensive title.

 

 

I'm pretty skippy they gave the ARC-170 1 agility because it is a giant outdated clunker of a ship, and then they balanced around it with 9 health and a surprisingly great dial

 

and while I agree about the 12 hull thing, FFG obviously does not as they keep releasing defensively challenged ships for every faction, regardless of whether or not they have Biggs

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Obvious post here, but Biggs has a very crucial effect: he is able to control your opponent's target priority.

 

There's a reason that Paul Heaver once said that Biggs was the first piece he looks at when building a Rebel list. That he's also a capable 3-dice attacker who generally absorbs 2-3 enemy attacks before dying is just icing. Making him durable enough to reliably survive 4-5 attacks instead would be too much.

 

It's hard to say he's an overrated pilot when he's probably the only named Wave 1 pilot who still regularly makes it into Top 16 Regional lists today.

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So because the design team didn't release things that would make Biggs OP he's not a problem?

 

The fact that the design team has referenced him multiple times as a problem is THE problem with Biggs.  We don't know what design space he's blocked off; they do know and don't like it.

 

I think stress shut down could work.  You could also make his ability take an action or require him to spend a token, automatically takes 1 damage ala Xizor... lots of options and I'm for whichever one opens up the most design space for him.  

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