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Strylith

Black Sun and Zann Consortium

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The Black Sun has new Disney Cannon, and It seem like there are some similar things and some different.

  • They only have bases on Ord Mantel and Mustafar
  • They Are not quite as large(?) 
  • They still seem to use the same system of Rule and Hierarchy(?)
  • They are still criminal
  • They work(ed) with Maul
  • They openly work with the Empire

The Zann Consortium on the other hand has only been mentioned. has very little in new cannon.

  • Also still criminal
  • Semi-autonomous(?)
  • Otherwise the same(?)

What do you guys think? How will you write them in campaigns or play with them? should we just assume that Xixor and other things like Vigos and Zann are the same?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zann_Consortium

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Sun

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As I mentioned earlier in another thread about canon adherence in general, I make no effort to keep up with the moving target that is Star Wars canonicty.

 

In my own campaign, Black Sun was shattered around 7 ABY.  Each of the residual fragments was either wiped out, absorbed into either the Hutt Cartels or the Zann Consortium, or is operating quietly and independently. 

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I never use the Zann Consortium. Ever. If the players insist, I classify them as a group that's well funded due to a couple lucky moves, but is generally just a bunch of wannabes more interested in being a "famous crime syndicate" then actually accomplishing anything.

 

I thought Empire at war was an interesting game, but the effect it had on the EU and canon, especially when forces of corruption dropped it's derpy story like a bantha taking a dump, was not only of little value, it just plain didn't make any kind of blasted sense.

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I never use the Zann Consortium. Ever. If the players insist, I classify them as a group that's well funded due to a couple lucky moves, but is generally just a bunch of wannabes more interested in being a "famous crime syndicate" then actually accomplishing anything.

 

I thought Empire at war was an interesting game, but the effect it had on the EU and canon, especially when forces of corruption dropped it's derpy story like a bantha taking a dump, was not only of little value, it just plain didn't make any kind of blasted sense.

 

I would "Like" this post a dozen more times if I could.

 

Empire at War made me hate, hate, HATE the ZC. I like the units that the FoC expansion added, but next time I play I will most likely try to find a mod that removes ZC from the game while leaving the new units.

 

I hope Disney deletes them entirely, or decides they're just a bunch of two-credit scumbag wannabe's on some slackjaw backwater. 

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I put zero stock in canon in regards to how I run/write my campaigns.  To do so is to erect a box around one's creativity I think.

I see canon like legos... take the pieces you like arrange as you see fit. Having Legos/building-blocks let's you build things more easily and faster than carving something out of wood or stone, so I would say Legos enhances creativity rather than limit it, even though they impose a sort of structure.

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Canon is purely concerned with context and authenticity of the source.  It's not the individual details, it's the collective details presented in the order and manner in which they were originally written by whomever created the particular information.  So using the material for inspiration is fine, but it's not canon, as soon as you take it out of order and not in the way the original source presented the information it is by default no longer canon.  

 

RPGs by their very nature are creating non-canon stories, so it's amusing when people concern themselves with getting their campaign right by canon.  If their campaign in any way touches events laid out in the lore they've changed canon and are creating their own concern.

 

Using existing material for inspiration is just that.  I think people transpose the meaning of the word canon for inspiration.

Edited by 2P51

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Canon is purely concerned with context and authenticity of the source.  It's not the individual details, it's the collective details presented in the order and manner in which they were originally written by whomever created the particular information.  So using the material for inspiration is fine, but it's not canon, as soon as you take it out of order and not in the way the original source presented the information it is by default no longer canon.  

 

RPGs by their very nature are creating non-canon stories, so it's amusing when people concern themselves with getting their campaign right by canon.  If their campaign in any way touches events laid out in the lore they've changed canon and are creating their own concern.

 

Using existing material for inspiration is just that.  I think people transpose the meaning of the word canon for inspiration.

Your post suggests we may in a practical sense, treat official source material similarly.  But this and other posts indicate that we categorize things quite differently.  You appear to define categories in a much more narrow way than I do.  That's fine and all, different strokes for different folks.  

 

But here's an example, you remember when General Crix Madine says "General Solo, is your strike team ready" in RotJ.  In an actual Saga game I ran years ago there was a hint of sarcasm, derision, and frustration in his voice when he said that, supposing your response is "I didn't pick up on that, so it violates canon" my response would be "then he did a very good job hiding his true feelings, Alliance command does have to project a unified front and confidence to the troops for the sake of morale, after all" so in my book that DOESN'T VIOLATE CANON, but what good is that, well the reason for Madine's frustration is that he had hand picked and trained a Rebel Alliance Spec Ops unit code named "the Undead" (as in "not dead" and "hard to kill", their unit patch was a skull and crossbones, and they had callsigns like Lich, Mummy, Bones [the medic of course "He's dead Jym"], Ghoul, Zombie, Vamp, Ghost, Wraith, Banshee, etc.) that, before Han got rescued and given the mission at the last minute, and chose people he had worked with before, knew and trusted as his strike team over the objections of Madine, had drilled for the mission for months.  Now given that, Alliance command didn't know that Luke, Leia, and Co. would succeed at rescuing Han, or that Han would want the mission, and they had been planning the assault on death star 2 for months, I find it highly improbable that they didn't already have a strike team prepped and read to go, and they got sidelined in favor of what General Solo could throw together at a moments notice.

 

So the Undead, i.e. the PCs, were given an alternate endor mission, once the shield generator was destroyed, they deployed via special dropship/escape pods and did a H.A.L.O. (High Altitude Low Opening) jump, and made their way to the main entrance of a connected facility where their mission was to secure the station's computer core and the intelligence information on it.

 

Now that didn't happen in the RotJ movie, but it also doesn't overtly contradict anything that happened onscreen in RotJ so because it doesn't violate the non-exclusionary principle, *I* call it "canon compatible."  So back to the Legos analogy,  I took the pieces I wanted, and arranged them how I saw fit (interpretation of onscreen events, ascribing intent/motives/motivation/subtext, elaborating on the official storyline), the pieces I didn't want to use I left in the box but I didn't throw them away (i.e. anything you don't like you don't have to include, but if you just avoid them as opposed to contradicting them, you are still 100% compatible with "canon").

 

Now I get that you don't like to be constrained, don't like to have a box around your creativity, but

  • you seemingly like to box in other-people's-creativity/forum-discusions by insisting that your definitions of categories get used and
  • I view canon as a core/foundation to build off of, i.e. as an inner limit, not an outer one

According to my way of thinking,I can go as far out and wide as I want to and as long as I don't blatantly contradict the official material without a plausible explanation of why the apparent contradiction actually isn't a contradiction at all, it's still canon compatible

 

And sometimes, just like the bearded GM who wears flannel and has the initials GL, when there's something in the official storyline outside of the films (i.e. what used to be called G level canon) that I don't like I say screw it, I'm doing it my way, but as long as I don't violate the "G-Level canon" I'd still call it "G-Level canon compatible" (which is where I'd hazard a guess that most star wars gamers check in with their own games) 

 

Like I said, different strokes for different folks, I do my thing, you do yours, it's all good.  I don't insist that anyone else adopts my definitions but I rankle a little when someone insists (or argues) that I have to/should adopt theirs.  Yeah, I get that it's a bad form to carry over heated discussions from other threads, which is why I haven't cited/linked to them, but if your interested I can think of at least one other off the top of my head, and I would like to affect some change here.... so Mr. Dread Pirate, I respectfully request that you would consider relaxing a little/loosening up a bit/and not insisting that your categorizations/definitions of categories be adopted by everyone participating in a forum topic.  Thx

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Someone needs to walk away and lighten up, but I think it's the guy that needed to write 7 paragraphs to tell me I'm not entitled to express my opinions within the forum use guidelines.

 

Oh, and copying what someone else has created not only isn't canon, it's not creative either, it's copying.

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Someone needs to walk away and lighten up, but I think it's the guy that needed to write 7 paragraphs to tell me I'm not entitled to express my opinions within the forum use guidelines.

 

Oh, and copying what someone else has created not only isn't canon, it's not creative either, it's copying.

I wasn't telling you not to express your opinions, I was respectfully *asking* you to lighten up and not insist that others adhere to your definitions of categories/topics when they express opinions that are different from yours.  Also, only 1 paragraph and 1 bullet point out of what I posted was addressed to the respectful request.  You seem to be taking this much too personally.

 

Also I'm somehow missing how "copying canon isn't creative or canon" applies to anything I wrote, except maybe me quoting you when I hit the quote button.

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I'm stating my opinion completely in line with all posting guidelines on these forums.  You don't want to read my opinion, don't read it.  I don't have to censor myself to fit your vision of how people should express themselves to suit your tastes.  You don't like it, tough, I don't care.

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Black Suns in my game are a major part of the life of the players and actually their allies (at least the wannabe Vigo of their sector is). Ultimately i am taking the as mentioned "Lego approach" of using what i like of real SW story lines (as they were) and using them as i see fit for my campaign.

 

Ultimately the Zann Consortium is a group nemesis, they just dont know it quite yet as they have been dealing with an affiliated criminal element.

 

Also, as part of the future game, the players will end up helping to bring down Vigo Xixor by ensuring he gets on the wrong side of the empire, so their wannabe Vigo can rise up and take over her sector.

 

My intention is to carry on as is, regardless of any new canon changes.

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I'm stating my opinion completely in line with all posting guidelines on these forums.  You don't want to read my opinion, don't read it.  I don't have to censor myself to fit your vision of how people should express themselves to suit your tastes.  You don't like it, tough, I don't care.

I didn't ask you to censor your opinion, I respectfully asked you to please avoid trying to censor other people on these forums. There's a difference, at least I think so, and if you don't then to my way of thinking that logically implies my request was on point and appropriate.

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I'm stating my opinion completely in line with all posting guidelines on these forums.  You don't want to read my opinion, don't read it.  I don't have to censor myself to fit your vision of how people should express themselves to suit your tastes.  You don't like it, tough, I don't care.

I didn't ask you to censor your opinion, I respectfully asked you to please avoid trying to censor other people on these forums. There's a difference, at least I think so, and if you don't then to my way of thinking that logically implies my request was on point and appropriate.

 

 

Guys,

 

We can tell you have a difference of opinion here, but let it drop before you completely derail the thread, please.

 

Thanks

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And the whole canon thing is part of why, when I GM, no matter what system it is, canon is whatever I determine it is. End. Of. Saves a lot of hassle, headache (I don't even attempt to make the adventures I create jive with what someone else wrote), and argument from players who have read that sourcebook/adventure book, or seen X movie a thousand times, etc.

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I'm stating my opinion completely in line with all posting guidelines on these forums.  You don't want to read my opinion, don't read it.  I don't have to censor myself to fit your vision of how people should express themselves to suit your tastes.  You don't like it, tough, I don't care.

I didn't ask you to censor your opinion, I respectfully asked you to please avoid trying to censor other people on these forums. There's a difference, at least I think so, and if you don't then to my way of thinking that logically implies my request was on point and appropriate.

No. You dont like, press ignore. That's your option.

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@offtopic: there is no need to reduce the fun in the game to be conform with the canon, if you want more years for your rebels campaign, just make the empire exist longer and the battle of endor takes place later. But my experience with GMs that don't care at all about "canon" or what universe consistency is called, is that the adventures lose depth and are a lot of times random. When the Pirat clan one time conquers a planet and the next time is scarred of a few ships without a development in between, or one time a creature is super dangerous and the next time it is just a sidekick of something else, stories lose plausibility and become less fun.

On the other hand are players also anoying who pick out every small point " But XY is lefthander, he has to wear his pistol at the side of his hip"

 

@topic: Consortium and Black Sun appear in "Dark Disciples", both are not nice but BS is indeed meaner and appears more powerfull. Until now my campaigns didn't face real criminals, but I would stick with what I read about them in the book and the common wikis

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@offtopic: there is no need to reduce the fun in the game to be conform with the canon, if you want more years for your rebels campaign, just make the empire exist longer and the battle of endor takes place later. But my experience with GMs that don't care at all about "canon" or what universe consistency is called, is that the adventures lose depth and are a lot of times random. When the Pirat clan one time conquers a planet and the next time is scarred of a few ships without a development in between, or one time a creature is super dangerous and the next time it is just a sidekick of something else, stories lose plausibility and become less fun.

On the other hand are players also anoying who pick out every small point " But XY is lefthander, he has to wear his pistol at the side of his hip"

 

@topic: Consortium and Black Sun appear in "Dark Disciples", both are not nice but BS is indeed meaner and appears more powerfull. Until now my campaigns didn't face real criminals, but I would stick with what I read about them in the book and the common wikis

This on both points.  I will change things when I don't like something or when it doesn't fit with what is going, but I will look at what is canon so I know what I can work from.  Think FFG tend to use the Zann Consortium as employers for PCs in their adventures because they are both a patron that is potentially dark and dangerous to play to the more morally grey themes of Edge but are small enough that they would need the services of the PCs.

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