Nate

Kyber Crystals, the Whills and Episode VIII

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It's been a little slow for the Awakened Era. After the initial burst of material that was released around the same time as Episode VII, there hasn't been much story development in this time period. (An exception is the aforementioned Poe Dameron comic, which remains a favorite of mine.) Even so, some of the elements from Rogue One seem to combine with others from The Force Awakens to hint at elements that might be important for Episode VIII. In particular, I'm thinking of kyber crystals and that mysterious group known as the Whills.

 

Here are a few observations.

  1. The prologue to the novelization of A New Hope includes a brief history of the Old Republic and its downfall. It is attributed as “From the First Saga, Journal of the Whills.”

  2. According to the Star Wars Annotated Screenplays, George Lucas originally thought of the Whills as “...somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events.” He goes on to add, however, that “I eventually dropped this idea, and the concept behind the Whills turned into the Force.”

  3. At the start of the Episode VII novelization, Alan Dean Foster includes a bit of poetry: “First comes the day, then comes the night. After the darkness shines through the light. The difference, they say, is only made right by the resolving of gray through refined Jedi sight. --Journal of the Whills, 7: 477.”

  4. In the movie and novelization of Rogue One, the characters Chirrut Imwe and Baze Malbus are referred to as “Guardians of the Whills.” They guard (or used to guard) a holy city with a temple in it, the place from which the Empire is taking kyber crystals for use in the Death Star project.

  5. It's well established that, in addition to being used in the Death Star's superlaser, kyber crystals are also a necessary component in Jedi lightsabers.

  6. In the Clone Wars episode “The Gathering,” a group of Jedi younglings goes to the planet Ilum in search of crystals for their lightsabers; there they are tested by the caves in order to prove their worthiness.

  7. Apparently, in the novel Ahsoka it mentions that the Empire quickly despoiled Ilum after Palpatine established the New Order. I need to finish reading that novel.

  8. Here's an interesting development: On the map that comes with the Star Wars: The Force Awakens Beginner Box RPG, the planet Ilum is not listed; in its place is the origin point for Starkiller Base.

I don't know just what these details imply. Maybe it's an important plot point for Episode VIII; maybe it's not. Whatever the case, it struck me as curious. What do y'all think? 

 

-Nate

 

 

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I think you've made some excellent observations.  I have had similar observations, in particular about the Whills, and am excited to see how they play into the new narrative of Star Wars.  Interesting side note to that - the first named character for Star Wars (if memory serves) was one Mace Windy.  So... we'll see if that has any relevance.  I'm sure the "Mace Windu is Snoke" crowd would lose its mind over that tidbit of knowledge but I think that's reading too much into it.  Historically in Star Wars when someone is thrown off of a very large structure it's pretty well accepted that they're dead.  Unless you happen to have been cut in half first.  *Ahem*

 

As far as Illum being Starkiller base, I think that it's quite likely.  However, space being the size that it is, and the map being the size that it is, they could be planets in entirely different solar systems and still retain basically the same position on the map.  I have been pondering over the map myself, lately, but more in curiosity of where they put Naboo.  It's not exactly on any vital trade lanes, so why would the Trade Federation blockade it?  It's infrastructure is clearly not a major trade hub, so... why Naboo?

 

Anyway that derails your main thread so I won't go off on that anymore than I already have.  I also need to finish reading Ahsoka.  It's on my list.

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I have been pondering over the map myself, lately, but more in curiosity of where they put Naboo.  It's not exactly on any vital trade lanes, so why would the Trade Federation blockade it?  It's infrastructure is clearly not a major trade hub, so... why Naboo?

 

It seems likely to me that Darth Sidious influenced the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo so that Senator Palpatine could draw attention to himself and his system, and thereby gain some opportunities: A) for Queen Amidala to call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum; B) to attain the Chancellorship himself; and C) to have Representative Binks instigate the vote to give him emergency powers during the secession crisis. 

 

-Nate

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Currently, the official stance on Ilum's relationship to Starkiller (via starwars.com) is that Starkiller's origin point is "near Ilum." Interestingly, though, that particular line is no longer present on the starwars.com entry for Starkiller Base. So, that could be changing...or not. Since Starkiller is mobile, it's currently anybody's guess.

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I heard somewhere that Starkiller Base was the actual planet Illum. ???

You've probably heard it plenty of places. There's a great deal of speculation that it is, based upon the placement of its "origin point" on the map being the same as Ilum. (The latest official map, found in the Rogue One Visual Guide is no help, as Ilum isn't included, and - understandably, given Rogue One's placement in the timeline - neither is Starkiller Base.)

 

As noted above, LFL's official stance at this point is that it is "near" Ilum, which - given the size of the galaxy and the third dimension of spatial orientation not available with a flat, paper map - is entirely possible without them being the same planet. On the other hand, I'm having trouble locating that official statement about it being "near" Ilum again. So, there may be changes in the wind. Time may tell.

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Where else would they get all that kyber? Certainly not Dantooine...? :-/

Edited by Neo ra

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Where else would they get all that kyber? Certainly not Dantooine...? :-/

As we've seen from Rogue One, Ilum is hardly the galaxy's only large source of kyber. Remember, too, Palpatine was (or could become, after taking over the Jedi Temple) aware of Ilum, yet the Empire was apparently using Jedha as the primary source of kyber for the Death Star project. Kyber was also present on Lothal, as that's where Ezra got the crystal for his first lightsaber.

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Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

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Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

I mention the other worlds rich in kyber to illustrate that starting with a world that has a large kyber supply does not require that starting world to be Ilum.

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I have been pondering over the map myself, lately, but more in curiosity of where they put Naboo.  It's not exactly on any vital trade lanes, so why would the Trade Federation blockade it?  It's infrastructure is clearly not a major trade hub, so... why Naboo?

 

It seems likely to me that Darth Sidious influenced the Trade Federation into blockading Naboo so that Senator Palpatine could draw attention to himself and his system, and thereby gain some opportunities: A) for Queen Amidala to call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum; B) to attain the Chancellorship himself; and C) to have Representative Binks instigate the vote to give him emergency powers during the secession crisis. 

 

-Nate

 

While I can certainly agree that Sidious was trying to play with elements he knew he could manipulate (particularly a 14-year-old Queen on his home planet) I seriously doubt Binks was initially part of his plans.  Probably more like something fortuitous that happened that he took advantage of.  The Force placing someone in the right place at the right time?  Binks is too obscure from the outset for his being a key part of Sidious's plan to make any kind of sense whatsoever.  He was a banished nobody from an isolated race whose interests and mental capacity were no where near loud enough to attract the attention of a Senator from Naboo (especially one who was orchestrating a plan to take over the entire galaxy).  Keep in mind that all it took to keep the Skywalker twins a secret was to put them on two different planets (one of which was literally an active member of the Senate).  Sidious was not omniscient by a long shot.

 

My friend also made that point, that Naboo was far enough out that it wouldn't cause the whole Senate to go into an uproar if there was a blockade, but it was important enough to get him elected to the seat of Supreme Chancellor following Valorum's forced resignation.

 

EDIT: Amidala's age was 14 during TPM not 17.  Still.  She was a child. That's the important bit.

Edited by dpick28
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Sidious was a talented schemer, but at least in the prequels he was also a mean player of Xanatos Speed Chess, altering his plans quickly as new circumstances cropped up, with the events of TPM being a prime example of how his original scheme went off the rails but he was able to adapt quickly enough get the desired final outcome of him in the Supreme Chancellor's seat.  The entire Clone Wars was pretty much master's thesis in adapting his plans so that any short term irregularities didn't derail his long-term goals of turning the Republic into an Empire with a massive approval rating and getting rid of the Jedi once and for all.

 

Of course, once he'd won and destroyed the Jedi Order, he started getting complacent to the point that by RotJ he couldn't even conceive of things not going according to his design.  Thus, his outrage that Luke would so openly defy him, and then getting blindsided by Vader's completely unexpected betrayal.

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Where else would they get all that kyber? Certainly not Dantooine...? :-/

As we've seen from Rogue One, Ilum is hardly the galaxy's only large source of kyber. Remember, too, Palpatine was (or could become, after taking over the Jedi Temple) aware of Ilum, yet the Empire was apparently using Jedha as the primary source of kyber for the Death Star project. Kyber was also present on Lothal, as that's where Ezra got the crystal for his first lightsaber.

 

 

 

Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

 

 

 

Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

I mention the other worlds rich in kyber to illustrate that starting with a world that has a large kyber supply does not require that starting world to be Ilum.

 

Yep, And, on top of the worlds Nytwyng mentioned, there is also Dantooine and Ossus, both of which were Jedi strongholds in the days of the Old Republic. In fact, given Ilum's current situation as of TFA being in First Order territory (even if it wasn't the planet turned into Starkiller Base), Ilum would most certainly be completely off limits to aspiring Jedi as a source of crystals, throughout the Rebellion and New Republic time frames. 

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Neither Ossus nor Dantooine are anywhere near Illum, bringing me back to my previous argument.

Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

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According to the Rogue One backstory novel "Catalyst" (good read, btw), there are several sources for kyber in the galaxy, and a couple minerals that are close to it in their properties.

 

And I think the hammering of Ilum by Palpatine was part of his effort to ensure the Jedi stayed gone from the galaxy.  It even says in the SW RPG material that Ilum is watched/guarded by the Empire at the time of the original trilogy.

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Neither Ossus nor Dantooine are anywhere near Illum, bringing me back to my previous argument.

Granted, but Jedha was massively depleted by the Death Star project, and I'm sure that the Empire used a lot of Lothal's crystals for Inquisitors, etc. Also keep in mind that although Starkiller Base probably drew from many different worlds' supplies of kyber crystals, transporting large amounts would be dangerous. Why not start with a world that already has a large kyber supply, to avoid having to ship all those crystals across a war-torn galaxy?

 

 

 

According to the Rogue One backstory novel "Catalyst" (good read, btw), there are several sources for kyber in the galaxy, and a couple minerals that are close to it in their properties.

 

And I think the hammering of Ilum by Palpatine was part of his effort to ensure the Jedi stayed gone from the galaxy.  It even says in the SW RPG material that Ilum is watched/guarded by the Empire at the time of the original trilogy.

Bird94us is correct. By the time of Palpatine, the Jedi had been using Ilum pretty much exclusively, As for the kyber crystals used to make Starkiller base, those crystals came from the very planet that was turned into the base (be it Ilum or simply a planet near Ilum). 

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Here's another question. At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey gives Luke back his lightsaber. If she's going to continue training, doesn't she need one of her own? Should that be the case, where will she acquire the crystal for it? (That also begs the question of where Luke acquired one to build his lightsaber at the start of Return of the Jedi.) Finally, given her affinity for her staff, do you think Rey would incorporate it to build a naginata-like weapon? 

-Nate 

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On 11/02/2017 at 4:38 PM, Nate said:

Here's another question. At the end of The Force Awakens, Rey gives Luke back his lightsaber. If she's going to continue training, doesn't she need one of her own? Should that be the case, where will she acquire the crystal for it? (That also begs the question of where Luke acquired one to build his lightsaber at the start of Return of the Jedi.) Finally, given her affinity for her staff, do you think Rey would incorporate it to build a naginata-like weapon? 

-Nate 

Just on the Luke thing; I've always gone with the idea that Luke got his new crystal from Qui-Gon Jinn's old lightsabre. My reasoning is along the lines of: Obi-Wan used Qui-Gon's sabre after TPM until he constructed his new blue one. He hung onto it after that for sentimental reasons. When he went into exile, he took it with him, and it remained in his hut on Tatooine for 19 years, probably sitting next to Anakin's. He could have told Luke this at any time when doing his Force-ghosty thing. When Luke lost Anakin's sabre, he returned to Tatooine, swung by Obi-Wan's to pick up Qui-Gon's old sabre, headed off to his solitude-cave with R2-D2, dismantled Qui-Gon's sabre to get the crystal and then used it to construct his own. It also explained why Luke's sabre was green (though this is now altered post-Ahsoka).

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On 3/8/2017 at 2:54 PM, Daronil said:

Just on the Luke thing; I've always gone with the idea that Luke got his new crystal from Qui-Gon Jinn's old lightsabre. My reasoning is along the lines of: Obi-Wan used Qui-Gon's sabre after TPM until he constructed his new blue one. He hung onto it after that for sentimental reasons. When he went into exile, he took it with him, and it remained in his hut on Tatooine for 19 years, probably sitting next to Anakin's. He could have told Luke this at any time when doing his Force-ghosty thing. When Luke lost Anakin's sabre, he returned to Tatooine, swung by Obi-Wan's to pick up Qui-Gon's old sabre, headed off to his solitude-cave with R2-D2, dismantled Qui-Gon's sabre to get the crystal and then used it to construct his own. It also explained why Luke's sabre was green (though this is now altered post-Ahsoka).

I have two questions. 

1. How does Ahsoka alter your theory? 

2. Do you think there will be Force ghosts in Episode VIII and/or IX? I think back to the old novel The Truce at Bakura and a standout moment that comes to mind is when Anakin's ghost appears to Leia. 

-Nate

 

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1 hour ago, Nate said:

I have two questions. 

1. How does Ahsoka alter your theory? 

2. Do you think there will be Force ghosts in Episode VIII and/or IX? I think back to the old novel The Truce at Bakura and a standout moment that comes to mind is when Anakin's ghost appears to Leia. 

-Nate

 

1. I haven't read Ahsoka, but my understanding was that the sabre colours are now related to the Force-connection of the user. Which I like, and it fits my own pet hypothesis I've had for a long time, that the user's Force connection (unifying = blue, living = green, dark side = red) influences the blade's colour; the only thing is that it would take longer than Luke had in RotJ for his crystal to become "attuned" to a new, Living-Force-Connected Luke and had simply held its old colour over from Qui-Gon. So the short answer to your question is that it doesn't completely change my idea, but it does impact it a bit.

2. Yeah, I liked that moment in Truce at Bakura as well. Lucas shot himself - and all of us - in the foot with the retcon to the Force ghost thing in Episode III. "Training for you, I have" says Yoda, who ostensibly learned how to become a Force ghost from both Qui-Gon and the Force users on Dagobah. Which is all well and good, except it doesn't explain how Anakin learned it in the forty seconds he was talking to Luke, redeemed, before dying, then suddenly appearing as a Force ghost himself. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Luke actually dies in Episode VIII and becomes a Force ghost for the remainder of the series. In a way, I would prefer that to him playing a major role in Episodes VIII/IX. His story is told - I want to see the stories of Rey and Finn and Poe being the focus of the series, not more of the same old (literally!) characters whose arcs are complete.

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Personally, I still like each crystal having a natural color of its own. It makes more sense, particularly given that Anakin's lightsaber certainly didn't suddenly change from blue to red when he turned to the Dark Side. 

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On 2017-03-13 at 4:02 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Personally, I still like each crystal having a natural color of its own. It makes more sense, particularly given that Anakin's lightsaber certainly didn't suddenly change from blue to red when he turned to the Dark Side. 

Maybe that's one of the reasons he lost...he was no longer attuned to it.

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