Force Throw

[ozmodon 535]

Remove a dye to do a character damage equal to the value showing on that died.

Nowhere does it say damaged die, so if someone rolled up 4 Shields on like Diplomatic Immunity I'm thinking you could remove it doing 4 damage.

Any thoughts?

[Derpfish 76]

Yep.  You can also remove a special or blank and do zero damage.

[VanderLegion 4,939]

Remove a dye to do a character damage equal to the value showing on that died.

Nowhere does it say damaged die, so if someone rolled up 4 Shields on like Diplomatic Immunity I'm thinking you could remove it doing 4 damage.

Any thoughts?

 

 

Yup.  I had one game where my opponent played leadership to ready a padawan with 3 upgrades, I rerolled and got a special on force throw, and he just apssed his turn instead of re-activating because the padawan only had 2 health left.

[Amanal 2,557]

What about Launch bays, is the X based on the card you have or I have in our hands?

[GooeyChewie 372]

The X on Launch Bay is based on the cards in hand of whomever controls that card.  Bear in mind you can use Force Throw on either player's die, so you can throw your own Launch Bay at your opponent if the side isn't relevant (or perhaps if you are resolving Specials anyway and need the damage this action).

[Jacos 0]

One could argue that since Force Throw clearly states value showing on that die, it doesnt matter what the card say. And that would go with the "specials doesnt count rule" on the force throw card. Do you really have any claim for the X being counted as a number in the rules or a faq anywhere? I cant find anything that support this idea. Except for the text on the launch bay card that is not actually showing on the die itself.  

[LordFajubi 1,308]

I kinda agree with jacos on this. Force Throw does the damage of the printed die, the printed value is X. Whatever that turns into on resolving is irrelevant you aren't resolving it you are removing it. I agree that X should be treated as 0 in this case. 

I guess I can see it both ways as Launch Bay does say x=the number of cards in hand, no qualifier. So it could be a constantly shifting number I guess. I guess it depends on if LB is always to assumed to have X equal something but then force throw would be nice to be worded a little different.

Edited February 27, 2017 by LordFajubi

[Mep 2,291]

I think in this case it needs to be in FAQ to clarify what the value of the die actually is.

[Mace Windu 1,173]

From the rules reference:

 

X AS A VARIABLE

Some cards refer to X as a variable. X is always a number that

is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value.

 

 

[CBMarkham 2,441]

Launch Bay: "The X on this die is equal to the number of cards in your hand."

 

INHERENT DICE ABILITIES Some cards have abilities on them which are considered to be inherent to the die, and always affect how the die resolves, independent of the card being in play. • Dice with a non-special inherent die ability: Diplomatic Immunity (r50), Launch Bay (r31).

 

X AS A VARIABLE Some cards refer to X as a variable. X is always a number that is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value.

 

So if we read all 3 of these rulings togther, Inherent Dice Abilities says that Launch Bay's X side is always treated as indicated on Launch Bay, regardless of other considerations. That is to say, X is always equal to the number of cards in the owners hand. X As A Variable says "X is always a number that is defined by that card".

 

You may not treat Launch Bay as 0 for the purpose of Force Throw. Treat Launch Bay's X side as equal to the number of cards in the owner's hand.

[RookiePilot 636]

I'm not so sure it is the owner, I think it may be whoever uses the launch bay that counts the cards in their hand.

[Starbane 301]

Just now, RookiePilot said:

I'm not so sure it is the owner, I think it may be whoever uses the launch bay that counts the cards in their hand.

You're not using Launch Bay, you are using Force Throw to flick a die so the value would be determined by who controls LB.

[RookiePilot 636]

But, you are using launch bay as soon as you tring to assign a value to that X.  I see your point, but I do hope this question does get clarified in a FAQ as I still think it could be interpreted either way.

Edited February 27, 2017 by RookiePilot

[CBMarkham 2,441]

13 minutes ago, RookiePilot said:

... but I do hope this question does get clarified in a FAQ as I still think it could be interpreted either way.

It can't be. There is one correct interpretation. The "your" on Launch Bay refers to the controller of Launch Bay. The meaning of the word "your" is not modified if another player interacts with Launch Bay's die.

[Jacos 0]

1 hour ago, CBMarkham said:

Launch Bay: "The X on this die is equal to the number of cards in your hand."

 

INHERENT DICE ABILITIES Some cards have abilities on them which are considered to be inherent to the die, and always affect how the die resolves, independent of the card being in play. • Dice with a non-special inherent die ability: Diplomatic Immunity (r50), Launch Bay (r31).

 

X AS A VARIABLE Some cards refer to X as a variable. X is always a number that is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value.

 

So if we read all 3 of these rulings togther, Inherent Dice Abilities says that Launch Bay's X side is always treated as indicated on Launch Bay, regardless of other considerations. That is to say, X is always equal to the number of cards in the owners hand. X As A Variable says "X is always a number that is defined by that card".

 

You may not treat Launch Bay as 0 for the purpose of Force Throw. Treat Launch Bay's X side as equal to the number of cards in the owner's hand.

Launch bay and X as a variable wouldnt apply since we consider the die not the card. I see your point though but this doesnt contradict my original question.

Inherent dice abilities makes a strong case. 

But we dont resolve the die. We remove it. There are other examples of die removal being different from resolving.

Considering the golden rule and the word "showing" on the force throw card. I am still not convinced that the plan was for force throw to completely block out Launch Bay even if it is in rare occasions. Even if you roll a blank you might not be able to claim the battlefield because the opponent might turn the LB die with use the force to hurt you.

Still, I am happy that you took the time and pointed towards the rules for reference and I have to admit that I am leaning towards your explanation even if I really think that it makes force throw to powerful.

[CBMarkham 2,441]

You can't ignore "Launch Bay" and "X As A Variable" because the rule of "Inherent Dice Abilities" says specifically to take the card into account at all times when dealing with the die. But, if you like, I think we can go around that rule entirely just be looking at "X As a Variable" and "Value", which is defined in the rule book.

VALUE The value is a number that is listed above the symbol.

So if Force Throw considers the "value" of the die being removed, which is the "number above the symbol". That "number" is X, and according to the rules, "X is always a number that is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value."

 

Value = Number Above Symbol (which in this case is X)

X= Always the number defined by the card

 

So the Value is the number above the symbol, and if you think X isn't a number, consider that the rules specify that X is the number defined by the card. It's convoluted, but not ambiguous. Hope this helps.

[KalEl814 1,510]

1 hour ago, Jacos said:

Still, I am happy that you took the time and pointed towards the rules for reference and I have to admit that I am leaning towards your explanation even if I really think that it makes force throw to powerful.

Force Throw is a great counter to Launch Bay and I have little doubt that the cards were meant to "compliment" one another. Anyone playing Launch Bay against blue characters needs to be aware of this and modify their behavior accordingly, or they're going to get worked.

CBMarkham is on point ITT.

[Jacos 0]

1 hour ago, CBMarkham said:

You can't ignore "Launch Bay" and "X As A Variable" because the rule of "Inherent Dice Abilities" says specifically to take the card into account at all times when dealing with the die. But, if you like, I think we can go around that rule entirely just be looking at "X As a Variable" and "Value", which is defined in the rule book.

VALUE The value is a number that is listed above the symbol.

So if Force Throw considers the "value" of the die being removed, which is the "number above the symbol". That "number" is X, and according to the rules, "X is always a number that is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value."

 

Value = Number Above Symbol (which in this case is X)

X= Always the number defined by the card

 

So the Value is the number above the symbol, and if you think X isn't a number, consider that the rules specify that X is the number defined by the card. It's convoluted, but not ambiguous. Hope this helps.

I give your points merit. And I do understand this.

I just dont fully agree that this is the only way to interpret "value showing on that die" since that is a specific instruction. I think there is need for a faq in this case.

Thank you very much for your help. I will at least not be hostile in a game when someone will claim this since I now understand how they made the connection.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

1 minute ago, Jacos said:

I give your points merit. And I do understand this.

I just dont fully agree that this is the only way to interpret "value showing on that die" since that is a specific instruction. I think there is need for a faq in this case.

Thank you very much for your help. I will at least not be hostile in a game when someone will claim this since I now understand how they made the connection.

Launch Bay is specifically mentioned in the inherent dice section of the RRG. I'd say that pretty much covers it. 

[Jacos 0]

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Launch Bay is specifically mentioned in the inherent dice section of the RRG. I'd say that pretty much covers it. 

And he did as well and I have argued against this. Why dont you try saying why we should ignore "showing" that is written on the force throw card and the golden rule says that when a card and rules contradict you should follow the text on the card? Makes no sense in quoting me if you didnt actually try to answer my response.

[ozmodon 535]

4 hours ago, CBMarkham said:

Launch Bay: "The X on this die is equal to the number of cards in your hand."

 

INHERENT DICE ABILITIES Some cards have abilities on them which are considered to be inherent to the die, and always affect how the die resolves, independent of the card being in play. • Dice with a non-special inherent die ability: Diplomatic Immunity (r50), Launch Bay (r31).

 

X AS A VARIABLE Some cards refer to X as a variable. X is always a number that is defined by the card, and does not have a standard value.

 

So if we read all 3 of these rulings togther, Inherent Dice Abilities says that Launch Bay's X side is always treated as indicated on Launch Bay, regardless of other considerations. That is to say, X is always equal to the number of cards in the owners hand. X As A Variable says "X is always a number that is defined by that card".

 

You may not treat Launch Bay as 0 for the purpose of Force Throw. Treat Launch Bay's X side as equal to the number of cards in the owner's hand.

I would argue that by your own definition. The last line on X reads  does not have a standard value and therefore would be the one and only die that cannot be Force thrown or counts as zero as do all other specials.   

[KalEl814 1,510]

5 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

I would argue that by your own definition. The last line on X reads  does not have a standard value and therefore would be the one and only die that cannot be Force thrown or counts as zero as do all other specials.   

No, that's not right.

Force Throw special text includes, "specials and blanks are zeroes." Doesn't say anything about X. It does not include, "standard value showing on that die."

Launch Bay's die can ABSOLUTELY be thrown for damage via Force Throw.

[Mace Windu 1,173]

19 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

I would argue that by your own definition. The last line on X reads  does not have a standard value and therefore would be the one and only die that cannot be Force thrown or counts as zero as do all other specials.   

 

If you say that Force throw does not recognise "X" as a value, are you also arguing that Launch Bay itself is does nothing? The card itself is self referencing so if X as you say has no value, then all the sides of the dice have no value for Launch bay itself regardless of Force throw interactions. You can't have it both ways.

 

Also remember that force throw references the value shown, not the number or symbol printed. The text on the Launch Bay card dictates what value is show on its dice at any given moment in the game.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

43 minutes ago, Jacos said:

And he did as well and I have argued against this. Why dont you try saying why we should ignore "showing" that is written on the force throw card and the golden rule says that when a card and rules contradict you should follow the text on the card? Makes no sense in quoting me if you didnt actually try to answer my response.

My point was that there really isn't a need for an FAQ since the rules already explicitly mentions it. 

[ozmodon 535]

You cannot use the special on another person's Sith Holocron. What makes this any different