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nickv2002

Anchored Cantina - New Map Rotation Discussion

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11 hours ago, turkishvancat said:

Does Obi-Wan prevent crates from being retrieved in Line of Fire? Does "retrieve a crate" mean "interact"?

Yes it does. Anytime you use an action to interface with an object, that's an Interact action. Retrieve fits into this.

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Got the rules response from Todd about spending VPs or not:

Quote

Effects “count as VPs” cannot be spent as if they were VPs. They are a passive effect that works like a “VP modifier.”

Which is what makes the most sense in the end, but just requires you to keep track of separate pools of VPs.

So no spending those "count as having" VPs.

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1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

Got the rules response from Todd about spending VPs or not:

Which is what makes the most sense in the end, but just requires you to keep track of separate pools of VPs.

So no spending those "count as having" VPs.

Thanks so much for posting! I'm so glad that we finally have an official ruling. I just wish they would piblicize it. 

-ryanjamal

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OMG that's so annoying.  We really didn't need extra book keeping. 

 

What is the point of this rule? It makes zero sense. 

And why bother making specific rules about going below zero if it's impossible to spend the VPs that can cause you to go below zero....  

FFG need to lay off the LSD 

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9 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

OMG that's so annoying.  We really didn't need extra book keeping. 

 

What is the point of this rule? It makes zero sense. 

And why bother making specific rules about going below zero if it's impossible to spend the VPs that can cause you to go below zero....  

FFG need to lay off the LSD 

I look it as the same ruling as Lando's map: you wouldn't be able to spend VPs from the "count as" pool, they're here only for the final scoring (40 VP)

Although I have to say unlike Lando, you can't actually lose VPs from Obi's map (in Lando you no longer have those "count as" if you no longer control it)

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15 hours ago, DTDanix said:

Got the rules response from Todd about spending VPs or not:

Which is what makes the most sense in the end, but just requires you to keep track of separate pools of VPs.

So no spending those "count as having" VPs.

Wow that's big. I think it's silly because you aren't allowed to use paper/pen at the tournament table but are expected to track different scoring?

 

Now you have VP from kills. VP from objectives or Objectives that "count" as VP. And used VPs (jabba)

Edited by frotes
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51 minutes ago, frotes said:

Wow that's big. I think it's silly because you aren't allowed to use paper/pen at the tournament table but are expected to track different scoring?

 

Now you have VP from kills. VP from objectives or Objectives that "count" as VP. And used VPs (jabba)

Well, you just track the VPs you have on your dial (or whatever you use) and that will go up or down as you gain or spend VP.  Then you just check the objective and add in your head the 5 or 20 or however many points you "count as having."  So you have to track two kinds of VP, but the second is a quick addition.

-ryanjamal

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1 hour ago, frotes said:

you aren't allowed to use paper/pen at the tournament table

This is not true as I confirmed with Todd at Gen Con. (It's other stuff like probability tables that is not allowed.)

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Wasn't it said somewhere that writing down/tallying the score isn't actually considered note taking? Just like having a picture of all the dice faces (open information) is allowed but not a probability table.

The rule is more there to keep from taking notes about what cards you see when someone reveals their hand (from Blaise or the like) than to keep us from recording an accurate score at all times.

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8 minutes ago, nickv2002 said:

This is not true as I confirmed with Todd at Gen Con. (It's other stuff like probability tables that is not allowed.)

Good to know! As an ex-mtg player, I prefer pen and paper above all else

7 minutes ago, Masterchiefspiff said:

Wasn't it said somewhere that writing down/tallying the score isn't actually considered note taking? Just like having a picture of all the dice faces (open information) is allowed but not a probability table.

The rule is more there to keep from taking notes about what cards you see when someone reveals their hand (from Blaise or the like) than to keep us from recording an accurate score at all times.

 

So you can record score with pen/paper but not write down cards you've seen? seems odd

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The rules are hazy on writing down cards seen from something like Intel Leak.

IMO, it's fine but double check with your tournament organizer beforehand if that's something you plan to do.

Would be worth getting a clarification on that.

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Discarded/played command cards are open info at all times. But I'm pretty sure "reveal"ed cards are only open info while they're revealed and would be covered by the "no note taking" rule. 

What else is actually considered note taking, just curious?

I mean, for people who blog/recap their tourney experiences (which we all love to read and hear about) can they not jot down quick notes of important things that happened as long as it doesn't slow the game? Can they if they're opponent verbally gives them permission? Can one not take periodic pictures of a game for sharing with the community later?

I get not slowing down the game to take notes. I get not allowing outside info like probability lists or things to think of if you see x unit. I get not being able to write down info you only had temporary access to. All of these things are on the player to either prepare/memorize in advance or remember when they see.

the main thing is the rule is hazy and it'd be nice if it at least had some bullet points if things allowed and things not allowed and some that could be if your opponent doesn't mind (taking pics for a blog). 

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I have spoken to numerous FFG officials on the "note taking" ruling at conventions including Worlds judges.

As I understand it after questioning the ruling, notes can be taken if they are public knowledge and available to all players within the rules or printed FFG materials.

Some ok examples:

  • Score tracking for both players
  • Score tracking for objectives
  • Crib sheet of each of the dice sides (without percentages of rolling)
  • Reminder written on your hand of "Hide" or "Blaise"

What is NOT ok:

  • Percentages of dice results on a crib sheet
  • Writing down the cards you see with Blaise or any other "look at opponents cards"
  • Turn by turn, play by play as it slows down the game play

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Forgot about pickpocket. 

But still it's additional annoying book keeping and certainly not easy to see the scores at a glance. 

You pretty much HAVE to use pen and paper now.  

FFGs own official score dials are literally useless now 

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After playing this map a couple times, the advantage for the blue side is glaring.  The top hallway is a great defensible place to stash ranged units who can easily pop out and see almost every spot on the map and then retreat one space and be completely blocked off.  Also the top terminal, which blue is sure to control, is much safer than the terminal in the middle.  Starting on the red side, you have to think very hard about the value of drawing that 1 extra command card (or preventing your opponent from drawing 3), because whatever unit you put on it is very exposed.  The blue deployment zone itself is safer, you can have Gideon sit back and have line of sight to most of your units, without being exposed to enemy fire. 

Red has two options for strategy and neither of them are optimal.  You can either rush to control the extraction point room, which still is pretty open to enemies from the top hall popping down to say hi and shoot you in the face before retreating, or you can stash your guys on the W shaped tile on the bottom right, which gets you off the main vertical firing range, but also leaves you exposed to the right side of the top hallway which is blue's safest firing point.  Lists that want to sit back and take pot shots are great on blue, but awful on red.  Either way your support units (except jabba) are forced to move up because sitting at the entrance of your deployment zone is not safe.  Lists that want to get up close and personal can do pretty good on red, as the extraction tile can act as a safe midway point on your way up to the bulk of the blue army, but even then Blue has the advantage. 

I am not a fan of unbalanced maps for tournament play.  At a minimum to make the two deployment points more fair, the terminal in the middle should be moved to a safer spot that is more accessible to red, such as the W shaped hallway in the bottom right (the top terminal could be moved closer to blue to compensate).  I'd also make the red deployment zone come out of the left side of the three way splitter it's on instead of straight down (so it would be directly to the left of the W tile and stretch out from there).  This would also make the red side start a little closer to the extraction point which would ease the problem of having to run 8 spaces minimum to get to a decent safe spot.

Edited by brettpkelly

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I agree with the above, I liked Greedo's map but that probably was too sniper friendly as well.  A map like Bossk's would have been a better selection in my opinion.  I think it's too bad we don't get more than one map represented per wave and it's too bad there isn't more "bring out the old maps from yesteryear" action.

 

I really enjoy Han Solo's map, Hired Guns map, Dengar's map, ISB Training Ground (actually all of the Bespin tiles are beautiful to me) I don't know if I got in too late, but I feel like several of these have or may get passed over do to the release schedule.

Edited by buckero0

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I made a simple picture to illustrate the LOS advantage the top side has.  The blue X's are very easy squares for the top player to get to and take shots into the extraction zone before retreating.  The red X is the top player's best spot for shooting down at the cantina without any worries.  The Green X represents a "safe" spot for the bottom player, but as you can see, the little wall offers very little real cover, and you can't see into the top hallway or to the terminal without moving up several more spaces and completely exposing yourself.

anchorhead los1.jpg

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I agree that the top deployment is overall better on this map. It has better LOS to both terminals for shooting and great cover from the wall/blocking terrain

While bottom side can move up easier toward the cantina area through the W shape, this doesn't gain them much, position wise. I think the best spot for the bottom side is actually the other W spot that you didn't mark because it lets you shoot at 5/6 spaces adjacent to center terminal from behind LOS. Also south side would probably benefit more from double moving and stacking by the entrance & going for objectives. They can gain early access to the patron on that side and middle as well as have cover for extracting crates off the map. A dog fight in the cantina does not benefit the south side much

Edited by frotes
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The other W spot gives you OK line of sight into the hall, but still not as good as the top player can get from the two blue X's I marked.  Another thing I didn't mention is that if you try to hold the bottom W spot you don't have room to position all your army, compared to at the top where 8+ figures can easily fit in the hallway safely.

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For sure, it's just the best area the south side has.

I think the intend was for this map to be asynchronous and give one side an advantage (I believe they mentioned this in the recent interview with team conv). This gives the person with initiative a slight boost because they can pick the better deployment zone. Otherwise if both sides are almost identical, the person who didn't win initiative has a clear advantage by being able to milk out the last activation of R1 and then go first R2 (without the aid of command cards)

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I also forgot to mention another big advantage for blue: they are only 3 spaces away from the door and can safely open it and retreat, compared to red who has to leave a guy hanging if they choose to open their door round 1.  Pretty much every positioning aspect goes to blue: terminals, LOS, defense, maneuverability, objective control.  I mentioned the extraction point as an OK place for red to try to control, but blue is actually 1 space closer to that too.

Edited by brettpkelly

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Ha ha, I still like the bottom better with my list.  The problem I experience with the top is that it makes it too hard for my melee-heavy list to swing from side to side.  I have a couple of tanks, Jedi Luke and Obiwan, who I try to throw at you as quick as possible.  My other units can take a pot shot up the long hallway once the doors are open, but they still have an easy route to open space to the east.  The top provides more cover, but it comes at the cost of delaying me from engaging, often. 

But I guess I need to retry the map from that side a few times.  :-)

-ryanjamal

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I have fought on Anchorhead from the red zone several times and fought against melee lists coming from the red zone. I think the blue zone has some benefits but ultimately it depends on your list. I have had a lot of success coming from the red zone, especially against ranged lists. It is very easy to get several Jet Troopers huddled up in the cantina and near the blocking terrain in the center. While most of the list charges down the hall, fast units like Jet Troopers are able to pop out, kill a shooter, then retreat back into the cantina, which is very easy for the red zone to control. I have even been able to get Terro to the space below your red X and fire into the blue hallway on Turn 1.

 

I don't think this map is grossly imbalanced. It just takes some practice.

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