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Skirmish Scoring is Now Based on Figure Cost, not Deployment Card Cost

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"Choose 1 of your defeated troopers... Place them next to another figure in the group."  The way this should work is that you got the three points when you killed the trooper.  When it gets reinforced it is still defeated, but it gets put back on the board.  That means if you kill it you won't get the points again, but you also won't lose the points you already got.  This seems like a fair way to not make reinforcements completely useless.  The way most of you guys are interpreting it points come off your score when you play a reinforcement card.  This would not solve the problem of hiding a lone trooper, because you're still saving potentially 6 vps.

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Reading the new section again it makes me think - isnt points calculation now done at the end of the match? I mean you dont actually "score" the points for killing stuff during the game, only for the objectives you complete. Then at the end of the match you calculate the points for figures that are on their deployment cards (Dead) and add points you gained for objectives.

 

The way it is worded, it indeed reads like you only add up VPs at the end of the game. The issue with that is that without adding up VPs during the game, you wouldn't be able to actually end the game, since the core end-of-game condition is one player reaching 40VPs.

 

VPs are not only calculated at the end of the game.  

 

Rather, players are required to keep accurate track of their current VP score throughout the game.  We know this for several reasons, and here are a couple that come to mind right away:

--Some Command Cards require an accurate running measure of the score (ie, "Against the Odds" and "Dangerous Bargains").

--VPs from some card effects and mission effects can only be tracked "in the moment" and are virtually impossible to remember accurately after time has expired.  For example (on the Anchorhead Bar B: "Line of Fire" mission), "How many VPs was that first crate worth, that I turned in: 8 or 6?"  

 

I think the way that this new rule changes things with regard to Reinforcements is that it's now possible for your running score to both increase and decrease during the course of a match.  But then, that was already possible anyway because of Jabba's "Order Hit" ability.  Now it's just one more thing to keep track of when it comes to scorekeeping.

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"Choose 1 of your defeated troopers... Place them next to another figure in the group."  The way this should work is that you got the three points when you killed the trooper.  When it gets reinforced it is still defeated, but it gets put back on the board.  That means if you kill it you won't get the points again, but you also won't lose the points you already got.  This seems like a fair way to not make reinforcements completely useless.  The way most of you guys are interpreting it points come off your score when you play a reinforcement card.  This would not solve the problem of hiding a lone trooper, because you're still saving potentially 6 vps.

Why would it potentially save 6 VP?  Wouldn't it just save 3?  And running away if you're only going to die seems still valid to me.  It only seemed cheap when it denied all of the points from the card.  With the new rule players are still awarded by how much they kill, which seems a bit fairer than before (IMO). 

I still think that you lose the VPs when it is reinforced (and tracking which trooper was on the board but still technically defeated, as you suggest the rules indicate we would need to do, seems like a nightmare), but all we can do is wait until the FAQ, I suppose. 

When do we expect it to come out, anyone know?

-ryanjamal

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"Choose 1 of your defeated troopers... Place them next to another figure in the group."  The way this should work is that you got the three points when you killed the trooper.  When it gets reinforced it is still defeated, but it gets put back on the board.  That means if you kill it you won't get the points again, but you also won't lose the points you already got.  This seems like a fair way to not make reinforcements completely useless.  The way most of you guys are interpreting it points come off your score when you play a reinforcement card.  This would not solve the problem of hiding a lone trooper, because you're still saving potentially 6 vps.

That's a good point.  

 

By the way, the interpretation I've laid out for Reinforcements above is just my best guess given the variables we have.  I'm not saying that I prefer it that way (because I don't).  I'd personally prefer it if the Reinforcements card didn't "un-defeat" a trooper but instead simply gave your opponent a chance to score an additional 3 VPs (so up to 12 or even 15 for a single group of Troopers...that would be up to 16 or even 20 if you're running Jabba!!).  But it seems to me that, given the various wordings that we've got right now (especially the wording on the Reinforcement card), the "un-defeat" interpretation seems to me to make the most sense.

 

If my interpretation is the one that ends up being accurate in the end, then you're right there will still be some incentive to retreat your last trooper, in the hopes that you can potentially draw Reinforcements once or even twice to remove 3 or 6 VPs from your opponent's score.  I don't like that.  However, even if that is the case, the points-for-figures rule will still hinder trooper spams...just not as much as it could've.

 

 

One difficulty arises if the new (or rather, re-placed) figure is worth 0 VPs:  How do you keep track of which trooper that is?  

Player A: "Oh no, that trooper is not worth points because he came back from Reinforcements."

Player B: "No, that's the original figure; the Reinforced one is over there."

Player A & B: "Judge!"

Judge: ... :(  :huh:  :rolleyes:

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it just seems complicated.

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One difficulty arises if the new (or rather, re-placed) figure is worth 0 VPs:  How do you keep track of which trooper that is?  

 

 

We already keep track of which figure is focused or which figure has damage on it.  Figuring out which figure has already been defeated wouldn't be that hard, just by placing some type of token or identifier on their sheet.

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It doesn't look like this will kill Trooper lists completely - I think it will just mean that they have to diversify a bit. Instead of running an entire list of Regular and Elite Stormtroopers, you might throw in some Elite Jet Troopers or Dewbacks or something, so you have some tougher units. Which will hopefully make for more interesting and diverse lists.

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"Choose 1 of your defeated troopers... Place them next to another figure in the group."  The way this should work is that you got the three points when you killed the trooper.  When it gets reinforced it is still defeated, but it gets put back on the board.  That means if you kill it you won't get the points again, but you also won't lose the points you already got.  This seems like a fair way to not make reinforcements completely useless.  The way most of you guys are interpreting it points come off your score when you play a reinforcement card.  This would not solve the problem of hiding a lone trooper, because you're still saving potentially 6 vps.

Why would it potentially save 6 VP?  Wouldn't it just save 3?  And running away if you're only going to die seems still valid to me.  It only seemed cheap when it denied all of the points from the card.  With the new rule players are still awarded by how much they kill, which seems a bit fairer than before (IMO). 

 

-ryanjamal

 

You can save 3 VP by not getting the last guy killed.  If you regain 3 VP from reinforcing one trooper you now have saved 6 VP.  If you reinforce again then you saved all 9.

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One difficulty arises if the new (or rather, re-placed) figure is worth 0 VPs:  How do you keep track of which trooper that is?  

 

We already keep track of which figure is focused or which figure has damage on it.  Figuring out which figure has already been defeated wouldn't be that hard, just by placing some type of token or identifier on their sheet.

Yep, I agree.  I'm just pointing out that it'll be another thing to keep track of.  Not a big deal, but something.

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Here is a preview of what we will be told by FFG regarding gaining points for previously defeated figures :D

 

"Your opponent gains VP's for this attachment each time a group it is attached to is defeated"

 

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/9c/06/9c0629b6-1669-44cf-a49f-28322eb0cfb6/swi41_card_scavenged-weaponry.png

 

 

"Your opponent gains VP's each time a re enforced storm trooper is defeated" Good night ladies and gentlemen!! Shut the lights off on your way out!!

Edited by FrogTrigger

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Here is a preview of what we will be told by FFG regarding gaining points for previously defeated figures :D

 

"Your opponent gains VP's for this attachment each time a group it is attached to is defeated"

 

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/9c/06/9c0629b6-1669-44cf-a49f-28322eb0cfb6/swi41_card_scavenged-weaponry.png

 

 

"Your opponent gains VP's each time a re enforced storm trooper is defeated" Good night ladies and gentlemen!! Shut the lights off on your way out!!

I'm still skeptical until FF states it explicitly.  I won't be surprised if it goes that way though.

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Egads you guys try and make things way too complex.

You score VPs when you defeat a figure.

Done.

If you reinforce you risk your opponent scoring more VPs.

Example:

Field a Stormtrooper squad. 6 Squad Points for the Squad, each figure is worth 2 VPs.

Opponent defeats 2, gets 4 VPs, you reinforce both back up to 3 figures. They then defeat all three, gain 6 more VPs.

Nice and easy. No crazy un-doing VPs or anything. Just defeat figure -> score points.

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Egads you guys try and make things way too complex.

You score VPs when you defeat a figure.

Done.

If you reinforce you risk your opponent scoring more VPs.

Example:

Field a Stormtrooper squad. 6 Squad Points for the Squad, each figure is worth 2 VPs.

Opponent defeats 2, gets 4 VPs, you reinforce both back up to 3 figures. They then defeat all three, gain 6 more VPs.

Nice and easy. No crazy un-doing VPs or anything. Just defeat figure -> score points.

 

I really can see an argument made for most of the other options as well, but I agree that this seems by far the most likely to me.

 

It's not like reinforcement suddenly become worthless.  Assuming you're reinforcing an eStormtrooper, playing that card means you essentially have a list that's worth 43 points instead of 40.  Yes your opponent can potentially score more VP, but you also have more firepower to kill their figures with.

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Honestly, it's such a powerful effect that it's still absolutely playable, even with the nerf. It's almost like having an extra 6 points of units in your list. The fact that your opponent now gets to score those extra units is not going to make it unplayable.

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Exactly, it is still highly playable but imo is more balanced in terms of point cost vs. risk.

 

Before if you killed 2 storm troopers on an elite deployment card you got 0 points, then if they were re enforced and you killed 2 more, you still got zero points. Now if you kill 4 storm troopers you get 12 victory points, THAT is a significant nerf to trooper spamming and will bring those lists IN LINE with other competitive lists. Combine that with Jabba? All of a sudden Merc's are the anti trooper list.. which have been notoriously the least popular list at tournaments. And they just got a huge boost with Jabba's Realm, it is almost like they planned this!!

 

But seriously just sit and think about that, your opponent killed 4 of your figures from one card and got zero points for it prior, how can you tell me that isn't broken? 4 of the best pound for pound units in the game. This was a necessary nerf and the game will benefit from it.

Edited by FrogTrigger

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Exactly, it is still highly playable but imo is more balanced in terms of point cost vs. risk.

 

Before if you killed 2 storm troopers on an elite deployment card you got 0 points, then if they were re enforced and you killed 2 more, you still got zero points. Now if you kill 4 storm troopers you get 12 victory points, THAT is a significant nerf to trooper spamming and will bring those lists IN LINE with other competitive lists. Combine that with Jabba? All of a sudden Merc's are the anti trooper list.. which have been notoriously the least popular list at tournaments. And they just got a huge boost with Jabba's Realm, it is almost like they planned this!!

 

But seriously just sit and think about that, your opponent killed 4 of your figures from one card and got zero points for it prior, how can you tell me that isn't broken? 4 of the best pound for pound units in the game. This was a necessary nerf and the game will benefit from it.

Fully agree with this. I even play mostly trooper lists and I think it was way too OP. This balances trooper lists but at the same doesn't nuke Troopers into oblivion.

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Exactly, it is still highly playable but imo is more balanced in terms of point cost vs. risk.

 

Before if you killed 2 storm troopers on an elite deployment card you got 0 points, then if they were re enforced and you killed 2 more, you still got zero points. Now if you kill 4 storm troopers you get 12 victory points, THAT is a significant nerf to trooper spamming and will bring those lists IN LINE with other competitive lists. Combine that with Jabba? All of a sudden Merc's are the anti trooper list.. which have been notoriously the least popular list at tournaments. And they just got a huge boost with Jabba's Realm, it is almost like they planned this!!

 

But seriously just sit and think about that, your opponent killed 4 of your figures from one card and got zero points for it prior, how can you tell me that isn't broken? 4 of the best pound for pound units in the game. This was a necessary nerf and the game will benefit from it.

Fully agree with this. I even play mostly trooper lists and I think it was way too OP. This balances trooper lists but at the same doesn't nuke Troopers into oblivion.

 

Adding in the control cards that were easily attached to Imperial Troopers and then Blaise and it did have the potential to remain strong enough as to be more of a default for the faction (and even to be seriously in contention) that I'm glad it's being brought back in line.

 

Does that mean Trooper/Spy lists couldn't be beat? No, this is a game of variables and strategy still. Sometimes the cards don't come up. Sometimes the dominating list comes up against a good counter. Map missions can do interesting things, and on and on. But on the whole it was easily one of the (if not the most) reliable/consistent lists to bring to the table. And had multiple very powerful tools (points denial, reinforcements, card removal, spam, objective control, an AOE nuke, you name it).

 

So yes these changes look like they are bringing some things in line with other lists. But troopers and control will still be good.

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Reinforcements definitely agree it needs a nerf. If you get the points back from reinforcing a unit I see that as more of a buff than a nerf.

Well, it wouldn't be a buff because you still get the points from the other troopers you've killed that weren't reinforced. Before the nerf you got zero points until all died. Now you can get some points, though whether those points can be taken away or not is unclear at the moment. Overall, either interpretation hurts trooper spam lists to a certain degree.

-ryanjamal

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So how do people think Of No Importance works under the new rules? Points are no longer scored for Deployment Cards, they're scored for figures. So... best guess is the last figure on the card is worth two less than its figure cost? Only reasonable way to handle it, but not what it says on the card!

 

Not quite as slap-in-the-face-obvious a mess as Reinforcements, I grant you, but to me it's another indication FFG have made this change without thinking it through.

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You win some and lose some. Sit Tight was made obsolete by the pass rule. If you lose Of No Importance this time, it should not be such an issue.

 

I would say FFG has made the change very much thinking it through and testing its effects rigorously.

 

...and yet we're up to four pages of debate about how it works with Reinforcements with no clear end in sight, and it's only been a day.

 

Besides, Sit Tight is not obsolete. It still works within the rules of the game. It's a card that you're now realistically unlikely to want to take, but if you took it, it would function. (It still lets you delay when you have the same number of ready cards as your opponent, so it is technically useful, just not as useful as it was originally). Of No Importance refers to a rule that now no longer exists in the same form - one fundamental to the basic decision over winning or losing the game!

 

I would venture to suggest that a rules change that breaks other rules without mentioning what you're supposed to do about them is the very definition of "not thought through".

Edited by Bitterman

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Regardless of how much they tested the rules change, I question whether they had anyone test the rules doc before posting it.

Indeed. I feel like the dates at least in every tournament update we get have been funky/wrong. But this tourney update straight needed a FAQ and consistency between sections haha.

The biggest problem with the change is that it came in a tourney rules update not a FAQ or article explaining it succinctly. We had to piece together what was even being said and then get actual confirmation that this is even intended from twitter.

Edited by Masterchiefspiff

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