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Skirmish Scoring is Now Based on Figure Cost, not Deployment Card Cost

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Alright, from FFGOP twitter - vps are based on figure points only - E Snows are worth 9 not 10. FAQ coming eventually and will address stuff. I asked the reinforcements question, but don't expect another answer since we will have an FAQ hopefully soon :)

 

It is very nice to have some direct clarity on the subject and I'm looking forward to the FAQ and to seeing how this shakes everything up!

Edited by Masterchiefspiff

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Interesting, is this to combat trooper lists?

 

No, this, along with the increasing numbers of AOE damage introduced into the game, the Jabba additonal VP gain, and the ISB HQ mission punishing large figure counts, doesn't combat trooper lists.

 

It makes them obsolete.

 

By extension, it makes Empire as a faction largely obsolete, because unlike Mercs and Rebs, Imps don't really have any terribly efficient pieces that aren't three-figure trooper groups.

 

I honestly don't know what to think of it yet. I appreciate the breath of fresh air into the competitive scene, I was getting tired of playing with and against the same stuff all the time. But this... this is just huge. It might actually have a bigger impact on skirmish play than the RG/Off/Sab errata.

 

I'm not sure about about making troopers (and therefore Imperials) obsolete, but this change certainly does change how they will be played.  

 

Personally, I'm THRILLED to see the points-denial tactic receive a hard kick to the ribs.  Yes, it was "viable" and "legal" but I always also thought that it tended to approach the territory of "cheap" and "underhanded."  It was very rare to see someone run his last trooper away and then still also play as quickly and efficiently as he had before.  (And I almost never saw it happen when that player was down on points.)  Maybe that was just in my experience and other people have not had that experience, but it seems to me like the points denial tactic has often seemed to go hand-in-hand with the "play for time rather than for victory" kind of tactic, which is really just a slightly legal version of stalling.  Interestingly, these players never seemed to play slowly when they were down on points....

 

Please recognize that I'm not claiming that all (or even most) players who used a lot of troopers used this run-away semi-stalling tactic...but some did.  And it was always a negative play experience.  I'm glad to see that it will now no longer be viable.

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My point isn't that the change in scoring is the thing that's wrecking Imperial trooper builds. My point is that the change in scoring is something that severely hampers Imperial trooper builds ON TOP OF all the stuff that severly hampers Imperial trooper lists that's coming with the Jabba's Realm wave. Jabba's scoring mechanic, Vinto's multiple attacks and pings, the Rancor Brutality + Reach + Cleave combo, Jedi Luke's deflection damage, Shyla moving people into Blast/Cleave chains, Terro's AOE flamethrower, heck, even Salacious Crumb being in essence a miniature Bantha: it's all stuff that will melt through low HP high body count trooper lists FAST. With Kenobi around, those troopers won't even be able to score objectives before they die a gruesome death, and then there's the mission that's in the map rotation that gives your opponent more VP the more figures he can spot. And now on top of that, conserving points within trooper groups will no longer be possible. All that taken together is what I believe will make Imperial trooper builds and by extension, Imperial builds no longer competitive. They literally have heaps of counters now and those counters come in a dizzying assortment of shapes and sizes, and on top of that the rules of the game are changing to spite them.

Edited by Don_Silvarro

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My point isn't that the change in scoring is the thing that's wrecking Imperial trooper builds. My point is that the change in scoring is something that severely hampers Imperial trooper builds ON TOP OF all the stuff that severly hampers Imperial trooper lists that's coming with the Jabba's Realm wave. Jabba's scoring mechanic, Vinto's multiple attacks and pings, the Rancor Brutality + Reach + Cleave combo, Jedi Luke's deflection damage, Shyla moving people into Blast/Cleave chains, Terro's AOE flamethrower, heck, even Salacious Crumb being in essence a miniature Bantha: it's all stuff that will melt through low HP high body count trooper lists FAST. With Kenobi around, those troopers won't even be able to score objectives before they die a gruesome death, and then there's the mission that's in the map rotation that gives your opponent more VP the more figures he can spot. And now on top of that, conserving points within trooper groups will no longer be possible. All that taken together is what I believe will make Imperial trooper builds and by extension, Imperial builds no longer competitive. They literally have heaps of counters now and those counters come in a dizzying assortment of shapes and sizes, and on top of that the rules of the game are changing to spite them.

Have we actually seen that happen though?

We've had very few tournament reports at this early stage, and the first one was taken out by jet trooper, stormtrooper and terro, with alliance rangers making a strong showing. 

3 figure groups do have other advantages like being able to focus fire targets down pretty well or grab more objectives and reinforce. It's not just the spreading out damage/health that makes them strong. 

A good player will still play around stuff like blast and AOE abilities. 

Also, I don't want to derail the topic but does anyone remember the rules (and where they are) for what happens when you go to zero VP or below zero? I think it's in the Jabba rule booklet but I don't have it in front of me. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz

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I would certainly echo the comments above about the new rules being vague and not specific enough.

 

From what I can tell victory points are static, if you kill a figure it is off the board you have the points, if its put back on the board you lose the points, no double dipping on points for troopers killed twice over due to reinforcements.

 

The reasoning being that you only tally points when you have won (which is vague in and of itself) but you only score the points for a figure once the game ends, so if its back on the board when the game ends its not on its card to be counted when tallying the points.

 

Very strange, but still better than it was before, though it is odd that some units are worth more dead than they are alive, i.e. Reb Sabs.

 

Its a weird corner case but if you were running 4 Regular sabs, 2 elites sabs and a 6 point character, if your opponent  kills all your sabs they win on 40 points without having to kill your last 6 points, making Sabs (and any other unit with a similar reinforce cost vs. unit cost issue) actually cost more relatively in game.

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Some abilities allow a player to spend his VPs or force his

opponent to lose VPs. A player cannot have fewer than 0 VPs and

any VPs lost beyond 0 are ignored. A player cannot use an ability

that requires him to spend more VPs than he has.

 

 

So with this in mind, I kill a stormie and now have 3 points. I spend 2 with Jabba's Order Hit. Reinforcements is played, but my points can't go below 0. I hope they thought of this scenario.

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Depends on how reinforcements is treated... that's still kind of up for debate whether or not the opponent looses 3 points when a trooper is put back on the field. Need and FAQ for that. 

 

But there are also other situations with various mission rules where you "count as having X points" and you can lose them if you stop controlling and objective or drop a crate or whatever... so that can have the same effect. If you drop below 0, you stop at 0. 

In your case Jabba's player would just go back to 0. 
I think it's fairly simple and works well. It offsets the fact that you don't have to kill a whole group any more. Only what's currently dead counts. 

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My point isn't that the change in scoring is the thing that's wrecking Imperial trooper builds. My point is that the change in scoring is something that severely hampers Imperial trooper builds ON TOP OF all the stuff that severly hampers Imperial trooper lists that's coming with the Jabba's Realm wave. Jabba's scoring mechanic, Vinto's multiple attacks and pings, the Rancor Brutality + Reach + Cleave combo, Jedi Luke's deflection damage, Shyla moving people into Blast/Cleave chains, Terro's AOE flamethrower, heck, even Salacious Crumb being in essence a miniature Bantha: it's all stuff that will melt through low HP high body count trooper lists FAST. With Kenobi around, those troopers won't even be able to score objectives before they die a gruesome death, and then there's the mission that's in the map rotation that gives your opponent more VP the more figures he can spot. And now on top of that, conserving points within trooper groups will no longer be possible. All that taken together is what I believe will make Imperial trooper builds and by extension, Imperial builds no longer competitive. They literally have heaps of counters now and those counters come in a dizzying assortment of shapes and sizes, and on top of that the rules of the game are changing to spite them.

I disagree with that! You seem to be forgetting that there still are

* Heavy Stormtroopers

* E-Webs

* Jet Troopers

* Dewback Riders

All of which share the trooper trait and have, high health, ways to hit and run effectively or are good area denial. You can arugue that the E-Web got the biggest buff as his Assault makes him great at downing high costed unique figure (especially if you factor in the cards from Luke's pack).

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It might be because I don't play at the most competitive level (haven't found a scene near me), but I always liked the aspect of trying to preserve the last figure in a group as a tactical maneuvering. I can see how, in timed games, this can be a big problem though.

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firstly i feel that the wording leaves a lot of room for interpretation and really examples are required to clarify this issue.

 

I would expect (in the interest of fairness) that the following would apply.

 

group of storms = 9, 3pt reinforce cost.

one is killed, opponent wins 3VP as model is now on deployment card

owner reinforces, model goes from deployment card to board, opponent loses those 3 VP

storm is killed, opponent wins 3 VP

storm is killed, opponent wins 3 VP

end of game, opponent wins a total of 6VP

 

 

same thing with reb sabs but a slight change due to reinforce costs being different

 

group of sabs = 7 (4pt reinforce cost)

one dies, opponent wins 4VP

second dies, opponent wins remaining 3VP from the deployment card

end of game, opponent wins total of 7VP

(not how it is written in that booklet but how i expect it was intended to work and how i would expect it to be clarified as)

 

if only one sab is killed in the game the opponent will only win 4 VP from that deployment card.

 

 

 

in my mind it is clear how it was intended to work but the way it is written is not easy to follow, examples and clarification are required but really, it is obvious what was intended, this is gamers trying to find work arounds  and loop holes to gain more points than they are due (naturally, its what we all do!)

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group of sabs = 7 (4pt reinforce cost)

one dies, opponent wins 4VP

second dies, opponent wins remaining 3VP from the deployment card

end of game, opponent wins total of 7VP

(not how it is written in that booklet but how i expect it was intended to work and how i would expect it to be clarified as)

 

if only one sab is killed in the game the opponent will only win 4 VP from that deployment card.

 

 

 

This part appears to not be the case, based on their twitter responses.

 

If you kill 1 Sab, you get 4VP. if you kill 2, you do in fact get another 4VP (or 8VP total), even though the card cost 7.

This was from their official twitter.

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firstly i feel that the wording leaves a lot of room for interpretation and really examples are required to clarify this issue.

 

I would expect (in the interest of fairness) that the following would apply.

 

group of storms = 9, 3pt reinforce cost.

one is killed, opponent wins 3VP as model is now on deployment card

owner reinforces, model goes from deployment card to board, opponent loses those 3 VP

storm is killed, opponent wins 3 VP

storm is killed, opponent wins 3 VP

end of game, opponent wins a total of 6VP

 

 

same thing with reb sabs but a slight change due to reinforce costs being different

 

group of sabs = 7 (4pt reinforce cost)

one dies, opponent wins 4VP

second dies, opponent wins remaining 3VP from the deployment card

end of game, opponent wins total of 7VP

(not how it is written in that booklet but how i expect it was intended to work and how i would expect it to be clarified as)

 

if only one sab is killed in the game the opponent will only win 4 VP from that deployment card.

 

 

 

in my mind it is clear how it was intended to work but the way it is written is not easy to follow, examples and clarification are required but really, it is obvious what was intended, this is gamers trying to find work arounds  and loop holes to gain more points than they are due (naturally, its what we all do!)

I agree with you except on the Sabs. I think that killing both will net you 8 VP, 9 if the they had targeting computer. The deployment cost matters in how you calculate your 40 points while making your list, but it is now irrelevant when counting VPs.

At least, that's how I read it. Looking forward to that FAQ :-)

-ryanjamal

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I feel like the most obvious explanation is that the reinforced troops are worth VP's again, which would just be another knock against Trooper lists which seems to be the point of this change. I like it, and anyone who doesn't is just QQing because their over powered cheap list is getting a nerf. I have a feeling this is the first step towards them making changes that allow figures like Chewie and Han to actually be competitive again. This is clearly a step towards promoting uniques and I am all for that. This is GOOD NEWS for skirmish, everyone has been talking about how Troopers are the new 4x4, not quite the same level obviously but somebody has to be the whipping boy and right now it is them, so their time in the sun is over. They will still be competitive, but on an equal level. Players who use them will need to adapt their skill level or be left behind, if you are good at this game this change won't affect you. If you aren't.. well.. get mad.

Edited by FrogTrigger

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I feel like the most obvious explanation is that the reinforced troops are worth VP's again, which would just be another knock against Trooper lists which seems to be the point of this change. I like it, and anyone who doesn't is just QQing because their over powered cheap list is getting a nerf.

 

I don't think that's obvious, given how the rules specifically say that you calculate VPs by adding up the cost of defeated figures and they in fact go out of their way to describe that defeated figures are figures that are put back on the corresponding Deployment card. A reinforced trooper is no longer back on its Deployment card. I can easily see this going both ways, neither of the arguments seems more obvious than the other.

 

Also, that's a pretty low opinion about people you have there, sir.

Edited by Don_Silvarro

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Does Reinforcements "un-defeat a figure" or "add a new figure" to the board?

 

Looking at the Reinforcements card itself:

Reinforcements.jpg

It seems to me that the former option (Reinforcements "un-defeats a figure") is probably more accurate to the wording of the card.  This is because Reinforcements allow you to place a defeated figure back into play.  And if a figure is in play then by definition it is not defeated (anymore), right?  Therefore it seems that from a rules perspective, Reinforcements really just changes the status of a figure from "defeated" to "remaining" (to use the document's wording on p.14).  And therefore Reinforcements could actually remove VPs from your opponent, under this new points-for-figures rule.

 

 

This interpretation creates minor complications for Jabba's abilities (Nefarious Gains and Order Hit), but they don't seem all that complicated to me.  

--Order Hit:  The Jabba player's VPs cannot drop below 0, so it's possible that an opponent playing Reinforcements could mean that Jabba got to use Order Hit for free or at a discount.  

--Nefarious Gains happens "when a hostile figure is defeated," which is a single event at a single moment in time, so it seems like those VPs would remain even if the opponent played Reinforcements to "un-defeat" a figure.  [Note that if the wording was "you are considered to have 1 additional VP for each defeated hostile figure," then those Nefarious Gains VPs could drop if a hostile figure was "un-defeated."]  For comparison, the Elite Stormtrooper's Last Stand ability gives a Focus when one of the figures in that group is defeated...but that Focus doesn't disappear if that group's player uses Reinforcements at the start of the next round before the Focus is spent...that's because the Last Stand ability is a single event at a single moment in time, just like Jabba's Nefarious Gains is.

 

So as I see it, neither of these situations harms the Jabba player in any way.  Nor is either of them very complicated at all, but they will require a clarification in the FAQ, just to prevent possible confusion.

 

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Reading the new section again it makes me think - isnt points calculation now done at the end of the match? I mean you dont actually "score" the points for killing stuff during the game, only for the objectives you complete. Then at the end of the match you calculate the points for figures that are on their deployment cards (Dead) and add points you gained for objectives.

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Reading the new section again it makes me think - isnt points calculation now done at the end of the match? I mean you dont actually "score" the points for killing stuff during the game, only for the objectives you complete. Then at the end of the match you calculate the points for figures that are on their deployment cards (Dead) and add points you gained for objectives.

I think you do score during the match.  Otherwise you couldn't use something like Jabba's ability, which spends VPs.  Still, I agree with thereisnotry's reading as well.

-ryanjamal

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I feel like the most obvious explanation is that the reinforced troops are worth VP's again, which would just be another knock against Trooper lists which seems to be the point of this change. I like it, and anyone who doesn't is just QQing because their over powered cheap list is getting a nerf. I have a feeling this is the first step towards them making changes that allow figures like Chewie and Han to actually be competitive again. This is clearly a step towards promoting uniques and I am all for that. This is GOOD NEWS for skirmish, everyone has been talking about how Troopers are the new 4x4, not quite the same level obviously but somebody has to be the whipping boy and right now it is them, so their time in the sun is over. They will still be competitive, but on an equal level. Players who use them will need to adapt their skill level or be left behind, if you are good at this game this change won't affect you. If you aren't.. well.. get mad.

You can't honestly believe that the current iteration of Han is ever going to be playable in skirmish. He is one of the most overcosted figures in the game. Also, there is no reason to take such a hostile tone.

 

Reading the new section again it makes me think - isnt points calculation now done at the end of the match? I mean you dont actually "score" the points for killing stuff during the game, only for the objectives you complete. Then at the end of the match you calculate the points for figures that are on their deployment cards (Dead) and add points you gained for objectives.

That's not quite the case, otherwise the game wouldn't end until you score 40 points from objectives/effects or time is reached. All of the points for objectives/effects and defeated figures needs to be tracked to see if a player reaches 40 points at any point and ends the game. The way that it reads in the End of Round section on page 14 suggests that it is an ongoing calculation, not just at the end of the game.

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I feel like the most obvious explanation is that the reinforced troops are worth VP's again, which would just be another knock against Trooper lists which seems to be the point of this change. I like it, and anyone who doesn't is just QQing because their over powered cheap list is getting a nerf. I have a feeling this is the first step towards them making changes that allow figures like Chewie and Han to actually be competitive again. This is clearly a step towards promoting uniques and I am all for that. This is GOOD NEWS for skirmish, everyone has been talking about how Troopers are the new 4x4, not quite the same level obviously but somebody has to be the whipping boy and right now it is them, so their time in the sun is over. They will still be competitive, but on an equal level. Players who use them will need to adapt their skill level or be left behind, if you are good at this game this change won't affect you. If you aren't.. well.. get mad.

 

So you don't see any validity at all in the idea of hordes of Stormtroopers being either (a) thematic to the Star Wars universe or (b) a viable, reasonable way to play? Apparently not; in your view it's just bad players getting hurt.

 

Suffice to say I respectfully disagree. There's more to the Empire than Darth Vader and there's more to Star Wars than just the named characters.

Edited by Bitterman

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I guess FFG agrees with me, or they wouldn't have implemented a change to nerf trooper spam?

 

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, this is tough love, FFG is saying like it or lump it. I hope you don't read any other message boards if you consider that a 'hostile tone', sweet summer child you would be scarred for life on reddit :D Apologies to anyone who was offended.

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Reading the new section again it makes me think - isnt points calculation now done at the end of the match? I mean you dont actually "score" the points for killing stuff during the game, only for the objectives you complete. Then at the end of the match you calculate the points for figures that are on their deployment cards (Dead) and add points you gained for objectives.

 

The way it is worded, it indeed reads like you only add up VPs at the end of the game. The issue with that is that without adding up VPs during the game, you wouldn't be able to actually end the game, since the core end-of-game condition is one player reaching 40VPs.

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I guess FFG agrees with me, or they wouldn't have implemented a change to nerf trooper spam?

 

Doesn't mean other people can't disagree, with you and FFG both, nor that you have any way of knowing what reasons those people might have for disagreeing.

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