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Rogue Traders are allotted leeway on that stuff, depending on the warrant as I understand it.

Legally, sure, but Xeno is Xeno as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I always make these comments tongue-in-cheek, but I'd say the same about an Inquisitor using Xenotech, or how I WANT to field a Callidus assassin, but their phase swords are Xeno tech, so I won't (in the 40K miniature war game) :P

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Legally, sure, but Xeno is Xeno as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I always make these comments tongue-in-cheek, but I'd say the same about an Inquisitor using Xenotech, or how I WANT to field a Callidus assassin, but their phase swords are Xeno tech, so I won't (in the 40K miniature war game) :P

 

So you like seeing the inside of airlocks or what a macro canon looks like from the barrel?

 

Lyn's right, an inquisitor's authority means little when you're not in Imperial space, even then not much when they're in the bowels of a ship.

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Legally, sure, but Xeno is Xeno as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I always make these comments tongue-in-cheek, but I'd say the same about an Inquisitor using Xenotech, or how I WANT to field a Callidus assassin, but their phase swords are Xeno tech, so I won't (in the 40K miniature war game) :P

So you like seeing the inside of airlocks or what a macro canon looks like from the barrel?

Lyn's right, an inquisitor's authority means little when you're not in Imperial space, even then not much when they're in the bowels of a ship.

In a 40K sense, better dead than colluding with a witch/xeno sympathizer/heretic (and those terms really are redundant don't you think?) :P Edited by Servant of Dante

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ranking on the level of Shadowrun

 

Whoah. As much as I like Dark Heresy and its sister games, that's a pretty big comparison.

 

Shadowrun existed for several decades and spawned numerous novels and videogames. Dark Heresy went for 8 years and, in terms of ancillary merchandise, has but one novel series which was cancelled after the 2nd book. Granted, Shadowrun had the advantage of launching in an age where P&P itself was still more popular, but on the flipside Dark Heresy had the advantage of profiting from an established franchise with a sizable following with people who seem to have way too much money on their hands.

I have to agree with Nimsim that Dark Heresy still clung a little too tight to "established industry wisdom", although at least the various games did undergo an evolution of sorts, most prominently dropping classes and talent trees for something more open. FFG certainly was caught between a rock and a hard place, though, considering that they had to balance DH 2E carefully in order to not scare away their existing fans. See that huuuuge discussion about the use of action points (which, to this day, I think might have been interesting).

 

 

That's not to say I'm forgetting all about Dark Heresy (or its sister games), mind you. I've still got a lot of books, and I expect to have fun with them for many years to come. :D

 

Well, I don't see many contenders in this thread for a more influential game of the 00s (excluding the usual D&D and derivatives).

 

Legend of the Five Rings?

 

Granted, its first book was released in 1995, but most of its material falls into the 00s. On ranker.com it's more than twenty places (#20) before Dark Heresy (#43), for whatever that's worth. Obviously not a very representative ranking, but still a sizable voterbase considering the 1st place (D&D) had more than 15,000 upvotes.

 

I just hope FFG, which recently acquired its license, is going to continue the RPG line and not just focus on the TCG.

 

 

I don't think Shadowrun is too big a comparison. They are comparable in that they are a main staple of RPGing and that it shouldn't be too difficult to find a group. FATE hasn't one trademark product line, even Spirit of the Century is too obscure. PbtA covers an (important) niche in the hobby but it's just a niche. 40K RP with its gamist system and it's widely known license plays in a different ballpark. I think the franchise is a much bigger fish.

 

There's a couple of major games lines out there, those who kinda have an eternal general on 4chan, ahem... among them D&D (and related), Shadowrun, WoD, maybe GURPS... these are the main staples of gaming. L5R has faded a bit into obscurity. 40K RPG persists and will, even if there is no new version forthcoming in the next few years. The underlying license is too strong.

 

As an aside, I am making a serious attempt at publishing a RPG this year, the system of which uses something akin to 3 action points per turn but out of completely different considerations and with a complete different turn order. :D Too bad the forum here winds down so that I can't shill it in here. :D (Just kidding, that would be bad form. :P  )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't see many contenders in this thread for a more influential game of the 00s (excluding the usual D&D and derivatives). And I don't mean system design, that wasn't 40K RP's forte. It is a solid gamist system though. In certain RPG parts of the internet, Dark Heresy was all over the place.The world, the art, the grit (in part due to crummy stats on rank 1 PCs)... it all clicked. 40K RP is a major RPG now, ranking on the level of Shadowrun. That's pretty impressive, oWoD and SR were quite influential in the 90s themselves. And it burst when 40K was really huge and 40K memes were all over the net themselves.

 

Alex

It depends on what you call influential. I'm going with "influences other things in the RPG community." I can't think of many games that were influenced by the 40k rules or setting besides attempts to put the setting on a different ruleset. Influential games from Dark Heresy's time are D&D 3.5 (since it did the whole D20 license thing). That basically DOMINATED the 2000s. Late 2000s and 2010s saw a lot more influence coming from Fate, Apocalypse World, and the OSR.

On the other hand if you're talking popularity, then yeah 40k games are in the top 5 sometimes top 3.

 

 

Yeah, I mean if people think back of 00 gaming, what do they think of besides 3.x, Pathfinder and OSR? Again, FATE and PbtA have been too obscure. (FATE might have its heyday ahead of it still.)

What is the Shadowrun of 00s? I say it was Dark Heresy. The game has taken foothold as a major RPG, not a small feat, even with a strong license as backup.

 

Alex

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What is the Shadowrun of 00s? I say it was Dark Heresy. The game has taken foothold as a major RPG, not a small feat, even with a strong license as backup.

 

I really think there may be a bit of exaggeration going on, perhaps because 40k is a relatively established franchise and has a very "vocal" devoted fandom, whose adherents cannot resist spouting memes wherever they believe likeminded people to hang out. You might just think it's not difficult to find a group, and consider that as a trait of a "major RPG", because you already know precisely where to look.

 

I actually think L5R is quite niche, but if so, why does it have both more votes on the aforementioned ranking site, and about twice the number of reviews on amazon.com? What does that say about DH?

 

One of the problem with echo chambers - and make no mistake, this is the FFG forums, so it certainly qualifies as a biased place - is that most of the time, people won't realise they are in one, leading to perceptions that do not line up with the outside world. ;)

 

Not that this makes Dark Heresy a less awesome game. I'm just not convinced of this supposed "influence" anymore, the more I look around outside of this forum.

Edited by Lynata

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What is the Shadowrun of 00s? I say it was Dark Heresy. The game has taken foothold as a major RPG, not a small feat, even with a strong license as backup.

 

I really think there may be a bit of exaggeration going on, perhaps because 40k is a relatively established franchise and has a very "vocal" devoted fandom, whose adherents cannot resist spouting memes wherever they believe likeminded people to hang out. You might just think it's not difficult to find a group, and consider that as a trait of a "major RPG", because you already know precisely where to look.

 

I actually think L5R is quite niche, but if so, why does it have both more votes on the aforementioned ranking site, and about twice the number of reviews on amazon.com? What does that say about DH?

 

One of the problem with echo chambers - and make no mistake, this is the FFG forums, so it certainly qualifies as a biased place - is that most of the time, people won't realise they are in one, leading to perceptions that do not line up with the outside world. ;)

 

Not that this makes Dark Heresy a less awesome game. I'm just not convinced of this supposed "influence" anymore, the more I look around outside of this forum.

 

 

My observations are based on several general role-playing communities, both german as well as international, though. And then there is this:

 

enworld_icv2graph1_morrus-1024x473.jpg

 

 

A bit late to have shaped the entire decade but it certainly came with a bang. In the 10s, FFG's Star Wars is certainly also a noteworthy gameline.

 

 

Alex

 

PS Hasn't echo chamber become too much of a buzzword these days? :P

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That graph reads pretty useless to me.

 

What's the metric we are measuring here?

 

What's the scale on the Y axis?

 

Neither axis is even titled.

 

 

The Y-axis seems like the popularity index. The X-axis are moments in time.

 

Question is where those numbers came from.

Edited by Gridash

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That graph merely shows that 40K lasted all of two years at its height before crashing out with only a middling resurgence during the time when D&D declined. Besides, good sales or market dominance does not mean that a particular game is influential. Pathfinder hasn't really influenced the RPG industry in the past decade because Pathfinder itself was influenced by and derivative of D&D 3.5. The 40K RPGs could only be considered influential because 40K is a juggernaut of an IP.

 

If I had to rank my top 4 most influential RPGs of the past decade, they would be (in no particular order):

 

1. D&D

2. Apocalypse World

3. Shadowrun

4. Star Wars FFG

 

While Star Wars is similar to 40K in that it banks heavily on the popularity of the IP, at least they went out and did something novel and innovative with their narrative dice system. 40K just stuck with a tried and true d100 system that hadn't really changed for two decades. 40K hasn't really inspired any clones or systems that emulate or recreate what 40K has done like how Apocalypse World has spawned an entire branch of RPGs. It also hasn't had much of an impact on the psyche of the RPG community as a whole like D&D or Shadowrun which define their respective genres.

 

The 40K RPGs were enjoyable and fun games but they were nothing more than a niche title that relied on an existing IP and a publisher that was willing to invest into the various adventure and rule books. I have to credit Black Industries for creating the game as well as FFG for their stewardship of the game because they put in the hard yards in making it a successful line.

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That graph merely shows that 40K lasted all of two years at its height before crashing out with only a middling resurgence during the time when D&D declined. Besides, good sales or market dominance does not mean that a particular game is influential. Pathfinder hasn't really influenced the RPG industry in the past decade because Pathfinder itself was influenced by and derivative of D&D 3.5. The 40K RPGs could only be considered influential because 40K is a juggernaut of an IP.

 

If I had to rank my top 4 most influential RPGs of the past decade, they would be (in no particular order):

 

1. D&D

2. Apocalypse World

3. Shadowrun

4. Star Wars FFG

 

While Star Wars is similar to 40K in that it banks heavily on the popularity of the IP, at least they went out and did something novel and innovative with their narrative dice system. 40K just stuck with a tried and true d100 system that hadn't really changed for two decades. 40K hasn't really inspired any clones or systems that emulate or recreate what 40K has done like how Apocalypse World has spawned an entire branch of RPGs. It also hasn't had much of an impact on the psyche of the RPG community as a whole like D&D or Shadowrun which define their respective genres.

 

The 40K RPGs were enjoyable and fun games but they were nothing more than a niche title that relied on an existing IP and a publisher that was willing to invest into the various adventure and rule books. I have to credit Black Industries for creating the game as well as FFG for their stewardship of the game because they put in the hard yards in making it a successful line.

It seems to me that DH1E was something of a derivative of WFRP, which was also created by GW.

Edited by Servant of Dante

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It seems to me that DH1E was something of a derivative of WFRP, which was also created by GW.

 

It is. It was made by BL who also made WHFRP initially.

 

It was basically a consolidation of the career system of WHFRP2 into something more manageable (although expanded back out with the Alternate Career Ranks).

 

DH2 had the only real interesting expansion on the system with the character generation and even then it was limited because we didn't get all the options possible or were present beforehand. 

 

Still no Cemetery Worlds or Assassinorium backgrounds or real Scum Role.

 

I personally really liked the Career system in WHFRP2 but others didn't and that's fine. A buddy wanted to work with me on a DH2 creation system hack backwords into WFRP's setting but we never got far.

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Though it actually makes me wonder if GW may have intended Dark Heresy as a way to lure RPG folks to their miniatures game in an effort to expand their audience, and then terminating Black Industries when it didn't work out as 40k itself may still be somewhat niche?

 

Considering the history of the game's initial release, I think it was a product of boardroom shenanigans considering how soon the line was cancelled and then licensed out to FFG.  IIRC, the limited edition sold out in under 6 minutes and less than a month after the last book went to distribution (Purge the Unclean or Inquisitor's Handbook, I forget which).  It was a severely mishandled product from the get go which GW could easily have tied into their minis line (and still could!).  I just hope that whomever has the license now doesn't start entirely from scratch and that GW tries really hard to maintain miniatures that can easily be used with the game.

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It's true, GW is kinda famous for its boardroom shenanigans.

 

Speaking as someone who games mostly online and international nowadays, I don't fancy the concept of a ruleset that relies on miniatures, though at the same time I'm still intrigued by earlier GW statements about bringing "Inquisitor" back.

 

On a sidenote -- I heard that the license deal with FFG flew apart because GW wanted to abolish the exclusivity, allowing other studios to take a shot at the franchise even when there already is an RPG line up and running. I have to admit, it'd fit to how they're dealing with 40k videogames these days, and I'd be curious as what those hypothetical other studios would come up with. Some innovation might be warranted.

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It's true, GW is kinda famous for its boardroom shenanigans.

 

Speaking as someone who games mostly online and international nowadays, I don't fancy the concept of a ruleset that relies on miniatures, though at the same time I'm still intrigued by earlier GW statements about bringing "Inquisitor" back.

 

I'd rather they not make the rule-set rely on minis--I just would like them at a table as they're awesome and good for showing off a game to draw in more players (even if the minis are pricey XD).  If they do bring Inquisitor back, I hope they don't make the minis the same scale they did previously.  that's a bit annoying.

 

On a sidenote -- I heard that the license deal with FFG flew apart because GW wanted to abolish the exclusivity, allowing other studios to take a shot at the franchise even when there already is an RPG line up and running. I have to admit, it'd fit to how they're dealing with 40k videogames these days, and I'd be curious as what those hypothetical other studios would come up with. Some innovation might be warranted.

 

To my very limited knowledge (and probably mostly rumor), the exclusivity had more to do with GW preventing FFG from becoming a competitor on the miniatures market.  FFG was able to bypass the issue legally with their Star Wars stuff by making them integrated into the board-game market. Of course, GW wouldn't be happy about those semantic games (ironically) especially with more speculation on a return of Battlefleet Gothic (direct competition to FFG's X-Wing and their Star Wars Capital Ships line) probably led to some hostility and a (very much rumored) unprofessional and probably aggressive response from GW. 

Hopefully, the new company head at GW will see the value of their IP and not mishandle it like the traditional GW way of doing things has. 

 

In a market competition of GW vs. Star Wars, Star Wars will mostly win.  Better that GW recognize the potential value of their IP and build towards potential that rather than make consumers choose Star Wars or 40k.

Edited by NeoSamurai

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Lots of theories! :D

 

Though I'm not sure why FFG would feel compelled to tie their RPG license to whether or not they're also granted the right to produce miniatures. I'm sure they could come up with some interesting games (which could indeed be regarded as direct competition), but if and when GW said no, why should they drop the entire deal rather than at least continuing with Dark Heresy?

 

In a market competition of GW vs. Star Wars, Star Wars will mostly win.  Better that GW recognize the potential value of their IP and build towards potential that rather than make consumers choose Star Wars or 40k.

 

True. Then again, I'm sure there are lots of 40k fans who have no interest in Star Wars, and vice versa, just like it works with Star Wars vs Star Trek. As long as the product sells and makes a profit, does it have to hold the dominant market position?

 

Plus, GW already announced they'd want to re-release Battlefleet Gothic, which kinda is Star Wars Armada for 40k...

 

Confession time: I just want a new Necromunda, regardless of whether it'd have come from GW or FFG. :P

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Lots of theories! :D

 

Though I'm not sure why FFG would feel compelled to tie their RPG license to whether or not they're also granted the right to produce miniatures. I'm sure they could come up with some interesting games (which could indeed be regarded as direct competition), but if and when GW said no, why should they drop the entire deal rather than at least continuing with Dark Heresy?

 

I'd say having two licensed Space Opera games can be a problem. Too many conflicting priorities in the market.  I'd bet the Star Wars license that FFG got included anything not video-games--much like the Hasbro-Wizards of the Coast license probably did.

 

As for GW dropping the deal--well, I figure GW didn't want to compete with Disney for FFG's affections when they could just find another company to hold their license--especially with renewal time coming up in February.

 

 

In a market competition of GW vs. Star Wars, Star Wars will mostly win.  Better that GW recognize the potential value of their IP and build towards potential that rather than make consumers choose Star Wars or 40k.

 

True. Then again, I'm sure there are lots of 40k fans who have no interest in Star Wars, and vice versa, just like it works with Star Wars vs Star Trek. As long as the product sells and makes a profit, does it have to hold the dominant market position?

 

Plus, GW already announced they'd want to re-release Battlefleet Gothic, which kinda is Star Wars Armada for 40k...

 

Confession time: I just want a new Necromunda, regardless of whether it'd have come from GW or FFG. :P

 

The general public would recognize the Star Wars brand over the Warhammer 40,000 brand--though the Horus Heresy books have helped the brand get some recognition as NYT Bestsellers and such. No where near Star Wars brand recognition.  That's the dominant market position.

I play both and have bought ALL products for the FFG versions of the games (Star Wars and WH40k).  Sometimes you feel like vanilla.  Sometimes you feel like chocolate. And sometimes you just feel the need to play a character that unloads a bolter pistol in the face of a daemon prince XD

A new kid comes into a game store and sees Star Wars Armada crowds and some Battlefleet Gothic crowds.  Unless there's something to shift the balance, I'd bet the kid goes to Star Wars--no matter how well the rules are designed and less conflicting than FFGs Star Wars (probably a fantasy, but you get the point). 

 

I just want more miniatures and terrain bits for WH40k that I could use ONLY for RPG shenanigans. :)

"LO and BEHOLD: I have set intricately and lovingly painted daemon princes, dark eldar and a green tide before thee! Bask in the perfect lighting as you send your own awesome Rogue Trader, Tech-Priest and Hiver prepare to do battle against the enemies of the Imperium! BASK, I say! BASK!"

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On a sidenote -- I heard that the license deal with FFG flew apart because GW wanted to abolish the exclusivity, allowing other studios to take a shot at the franchise even when there already is an RPG line up and running. I have to admit, it'd fit to how they're dealing with 40k videogames these days, and I'd be curious as what those hypothetical other studios would come up with. Some innovation might be warranted.

 

Huh, now that is an interesting rumour. GW could design the core rules and basic books and then farm out different content to different designers and publishers sort of like how Wizards did it back in the days of OGL. GW could still make some decent cash by coordinating with their contractors and designing specific terrain and models to suit whatever is being made.

 

At this point, I'd be up for an open approach for a new 40K RPG if it means more content. I wouldn't be too fussed with having to deal with crap because it's easy to pick and choose what books you want to use.

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On a sidenote -- I heard that the license deal with FFG flew apart because GW wanted to abolish the exclusivity, allowing other studios to take a shot at the franchise even when there already is an RPG line up and running. I have to admit, it'd fit to how they're dealing with 40k videogames these days, and I'd be curious as what those hypothetical other studios would come up with. Some innovation might be warranted.

 

Well, I also heard things.  The main issue I'd seen brought up was since Fantasy Flight is actively producing the current Star Wars RPG, Games Workshop was not pleased.  Rumors, but still  

 

I heard that it was due to FFG releasing their own miniature combat game, which (supposedly) violated a 'non-compete' clause in their contract with GW. I suppose we'll never know for sure...

 

Confession time: I just want a new Necromunda, regardless of whether it'd have come from GW or FFG. :P

 

Amen to that!

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It might also be tied to the fact that FFG isn't exactly a huge company, so resources are likely limited. It is possible IMO that somebody in a leadership position did the math and that RPG design man-hours would produce more revenue if invested into more material for the Star Wars RPG.

 

All of the above is speculation OFC, but it didn't exactly seem to me that FFG was flooding the market with new 40k RPG material before they lost the license, so it's possible they had given it up already in practice.

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