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Underachiever599

Defining the roles of the B-Wing and the X-Wing

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One of the recurring things I see in this forum is the debate between the X-Wing and the B-Wing. In a game where so many different niches exist for different ships, be it regarding point cost, support capabilities, spammability, jousting ability, whatever, it's rare to find two ships that seem to fill the exact same niche within the same faction. However, it seems that's what the case is here with the X-Wing and B-Wing. At least, when it comes to the generics.

 

At 22 points, the B-Wing has 3 attack dice, 1 defense die, 3 hull, and 5 shields. 

 

The X-Wing, with Integrated Astromech and an R2 Astromech, has 3 attack, 2 defense, 3 hull, and the equivalent of 3.5 shields. 

 

Stat-wise, the X-Wing has a bit more variance to its durability, but on the whole, the two are nearly identical. 

 

Maneuverability-wise, the two have the exact same greens ordinarily, but R2 Astromech gives the X-Wing green 2 banks and hards, allowing it to shed stress easier. The B-Wing trades the X-Wing's white three hards for red one hards, turns the 4 straight and 3 banks red, and trades the 4K for a 2K. On the whole, the X-Wing's dial is better in general, but when it comes to close-range dogfighting, the B-Wing's is actually superior for keeping in close. The X-Wing's superior dial is further offset by the B-Wing's ability to barrel roll, which requires a 2 point upgrade for the X-Wing to pull off. On the whole, I'd argue that their total maneuverability is comparable, with the X-Wing being better in more situations, but the B-Wing being better in knife fights.

 

Upgrade-wise is where these two ships finally differ. The B-Wing has access to the System Upgrade slot, the Cannon Upgrade slot, and two Torpedo Upgrade slots, in addition to a Modification Upgrade slot. The X-Wing, however, only has access to a single Torpedo Upgrade slot, the Astromech Upgrade slot, and the Modification Upgrade slot, which is almost always filled with Integrated Astromech. This leaves the B-Wing with far more upgrade options than the X-Wing, most of which are offensive. This is where the B-Wing's niche should come in. Where the X-Wing should be a superior jouster, the B-Wing should be a great heavy weapons platform. Between the two Torpedo Upgrade slots, the Cannon Upgrade slot, and the System Upgrade slot, there are plenty of options to build out the B-Wing to do some serious damage. So why don't we see this?

 

Well, to begin with, a naked B-Wing is practically an equal jouster to an X-Wing with the inclusion of Integrated Astromech, and before IA came about, it was actually a superior jouster. This allowed the naked B-Wing to fill the niche that the X-Wing should have been filling, rather than forging its own role in the Rebel fleet. Couple this with the fact that the Y-Wing has similar health to the B-Wing, is cheaper, and similar weapons (With a Turret instead of a Cannon), the niche for a heavy weapons platform seems to already be filled. Granted, the B-Wing works better as a weapons platform with the use of Fire Control Systems, but thanks to diminishing returns, the more points you put into making the B-Wing a powerful weapons platform, the less you get out of it.

 

So, how do we fix this and allow the B-Wing and X-Wing to snap into the niches they were meant for? I've had plenty of ideas for the X-Wing, but I'm still drawing a blank on what to do with the B-Wing.

 

Incom Innovations

 

X-Wing Only. Title.

 

If you do not have the tech slot, after you execute a bank maneuver, you may rotate your ship 90 degrees and place the base along the maneuver template as if performing a barrel roll. If you do, treat this maneuver as a red maneuver.

You may equip 1 additional Modification upgrade that costs 2 or fewer squad points.

 

0 points.

 

Originally I was just thinking of naming it T-65 X-Wing, but I had to come up with something else after deciding it should go on both the T-65 and T-70. The maneuver idea, which I like to think of as a drift maneuver, allows X-Wings to get their arcs more easily aimed in the right direction. It provides them with a fun new maneuver that is similar to a T-Roll, but on banks instead, and they can end up facing one of three directions after dialing in a bank. The fact that it's a red maneuver also pairs well with Targeting Astromech, giving it much more use on an X-Wing than it previously had. This works especially well for Hobbie, who could now do a drift manuever, target lock to clear his stress, and then barrel roll with Vectored Thrusters, allowing for all sorts of maneuver shenanigans. I haven't had much table time with this fix idea yet, but it is pretty fun to fly from what little I've flown of it, and the Hobbie build I mentioned is ridiculously maneuverable. I'd say it gives x7 Defenders a fair run for their money.

 

The idea for the additional modification is pretty straightforward. Now X-Wings could take Vectored Thrusters and Integrated Astromech for a balance of maneuverability and durability, Engine Upgrade and Vectored Thrusters for arc dodging potential, or Integrated Astromech and Guidance Chips to be a cheap and durable ordinance carrier. If you really wanted to do something cheesy, you could also give an X-Wing Engine Upgrade and Autothrusters, which would make Luke extremely annoying to kill. The T-70, on a similar note, could now equip Autothrusters and Vectored Thrusters, or Autothrusters and Integrated Astromech. Either way, giving the X-Wing another modification would be great for thematic purposes as well as gameplay, in my opinion.

 

Guidance Astromech

 

Once per round, when attacking with your primary weapon, you may change 1 die result to a [hit] result. 

 

2 points. 

 

This provides the Rebellion with something they've desperately needed. An astromech that simply straight-up improves offensive output. No ifs, ands, or buts. This could be a huge help to both X-Wings and the E-Wing, though I admit it might be a little powerful on the ARC-170 (Although most ARC pilots already seem to have found their favorite astromechs). The cost rivals another offence-oriented astromech, the Targeting Astromech. While this one is more reliable and easier to trigger, Targeting Astromechs do have a particular niche. For example, with the title above, I'd always take a Targeting Astromech over a Guidance Astromech on Hobbie, due to his ability. It's also pretty useful on ordinance carriers when they're forced to do red maneuvers in order to get a shot with their torpedoes.

 

C1 Astromech

 

When you equip this card, place 1 ordinance token on 1 equipped [torpedo] Upgrade card. When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordinance token on that card instead.

 

3 points.

 

Basically a more limited version of Extra Munitions. However, it can go a long way toward helping ships that only have a single torpedo slot, encouraging you to take torpedoes on them more often. I decided to have it cost more than Extra Munitions mostly for the fact that having extra torpedoes on ships that were designed with only having a single torpedo shot in mind seems really powerful to me, and I didn't want to risk making it too powerful of an upgrade. But now, with the above title for the X-Wing, it can be an effective torpedo boat with Integrated Astromech, Guidance Chips, Plasma Torpedoes, and a C1 Astromech, putting it at 27 points, the same price as a B-Wing with Plasma Torpedoes, Extra Munitions, and Guidance Chips. A Y-Wing could actually carry three Plasma Torpedo shots with this at 26 points. Granted, none of this really comes close to the points efficiency of the TIE Bomber, but it's still an interesting alternative to load out an X-Wing.

 

By providing the X-Wing better maneuverability with a brand new type of maneuver, more options for modification layout, and the option to go with either a more point-efficient jouster (Title, Guidance Astromech, Integrated Astromech comes to 23 points with great maneuverability and reliable offense even after doing red maneuvers), or a sturdy ordinance carrier like the one listed above, the X-Wing could now edge out the B-Wing as the main generic filler jouster for the Rebellion. With any luck, this would be enough to push the B-Wing into the role it was intended. 

 

Now the real question is, how would you avoid the diminishing returns of the B-Wing when you start loading it up? What sorts of upgrades can you guys come up with to make the B-Wing more useful as a loaded up Ordinance and Cannon carrier? A new system slot that does something for Torpedoes (Possibly fixing the Punisher at the same time)? A new B-Wing only cannon that hits like a tank like the one we saw in Rebels? I'm honestly really curious how we can go about giving the B-Wing its role as a heavy weapons platform without making it a bloated points-pinata.

Edited by Underachiever599

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I've done some thinking about the B-Wing. Here's my thoughts.

 

So the B-Wing never had "standard" laser cannons. It had an HLC, 3 ion cannons, a cluster of autoblasters for close air support, and it's proton torpedo launchers.

 

So perhaps we could make a title like this:

 

A/SF-01 B-Wing, Title, X Points cause i dunno:

 

Add the <Cannon> upgrade slot to your upgrade bar, and equip a cannon that costs 3 or less points for free. You may not perform primary weapon attacks. After you perform a <Cannon> secondary weapon attack, you may perform an attack with a different equipped <cannon> secondary weapon. You may not attack again this turn.

 

Reinforce it's heavy firepower by keeping it in the realm of cannons.

 

The B-wing rolls the X-wing does not.....

...Yeah. He said so in his post.

 

"The X-Wing's superior dial is further offset by the B-Wing's ability to barrel roll, which requires a 2 point upgrade for the X-Wing to pull off. "

Edited by Razgriz25thinf

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You really don't need to do anything that restricts an X-wing fix to the t-65. FFG deliberately* kept the t-70 in line Balance with the classic X-wing since they didn't want to bother with goofy syntax for future X-wing fixes. Tellingly, the T-70 sees if anything less competitive success than it's predecessor.

*Per interviews prior to the TFA core set release.

Edited by Squark

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You really don't need to do anything that restricts an X-wing fix to the t-65. FFG deliberately* kept the t-70 in line Balance with the classic X-wing since they didn't want to bother with goofy syntax for future X-wing fixes. Tellingly, the T-70 sees if anything less competitive success than it's predecessor.

*Per interviews prior to the TFA core set release.

Which is why the title I proposed can be taken on both the T-70 and the regular X-Wing. I just didn't want to give the T-70 the drift maneuver, because I wanted the old X-Wing to have something unique about it that is a step down from the Tallon Roll, but works along the same lines. 

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B-wing is a brawler. Get a big traffic jam of ships in the center that are bumping into each other, then let the B-wing go in and blast through the center being able to cut a path into the jam. Things is ships are now more mobile than ever and those traffic jams are rarely seen.

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Let B-wing Barrel Roll while stressed and give X-wings Outmaneuver for free.

 

B-wings have a lot of red moves and have a system slot for action efficiency. But why would you ever barrel roll if you can focus. Well if you aren't able to take the focus move because you are stressed then you can barrel roll to get arc on your enemy. And B-wings 'thing' is the rotating frame.

 

Xwings have no re-positional actions and no built in action efficiency. If you get caught in an x-wing arc then you either were not paying attention, or had a more important target. Letting all x-wings have outmaneuver encourages you to break formation with them, and allows you to harass the opponent by making them break off the chase of a wounded ship to get your xwing back in arc. The ships are often shown in the movies as calling out when they have someone on their tail, allowing their fellows to pick off the offending TIE.

 

Or the xwings could, at the end of the placement phase, take a target lock on any ship on the board. To simulate the rebelion's hit and run tactics.

Edited by codegnave

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Now the real question is, how would you avoid the diminishing returns of the B-Wing when you start loading it up? What sorts of upgrades can you guys come up with to make the B-Wing more useful as a loaded up Ordinance and Cannon carrier? A new system slot that does something for Torpedoes (Possibly fixing the Punisher at the same time)? A new B-Wing only cannon that hits like a tank like the one we saw in Rebels? I'm honestly really curious how we can go about giving the B-Wing its role as a heavy weapons platform without making it a bloated points-pinata.

 

 

With the Custom Card League coming up later this month, I've been grappling with these same questions. But in addition to the problems you've stated, the Bwing has another problem.

 

Just as the Bwing's current slots go unused because they require loading up on points, so too do the named pilots go unused, for the same reason. Being PS8 or 10 hardly matters when a well placed academy pilot can cover every non-red maneuver with a range 1 attack "bucket", and half the pilots prefer to be stressed, locking down the barrel roll that is supposed to set the Bwing apart.

 

My solution for the Custom card league addesses your problem and mine with separate cards. For your issue, a modification, for all pilots, that gives the Bwing an arsonal without biasing it toward one weapon over another- A swiss army knife, but not a claymore.

 

iwcwr6G.jpg
 
Ion, Flechette, Tractors... they have utility, but they dont overpower the 3 die primary. This title gives them for free.
Likewise, Flechette and Plasma torpedos. As a modification, this prevents the use of Guidance Chips, and "three dice with TL vs 4 dice without" is the classic example of old style munitions being not worth their points. So for this ship, they DONT cost points, and their utility is just one more option in the Bwing's kit.
Manglers, Autoblasters, and HLCs... these offer things the Bwing lacks. And while you can take them cheaper than normal, you still have to pay for the privilage. 1 point to autocrit, 2 points for a range 1 undodgable attack. The HLC is still 4 points, on par with Expose or Opportunist, but without their drawbacks. Without FCS, Major Juggler puts a HLC Bwing's "correct" value at 26.2 points. With FCS, he values it at 27.5 points, leaving it slightly behind the Academy Pilot Tie fighter in efficency... but with the utility of the torpedoes and second cannon still available, anytime you want to give up raw power for finesse in the middle of battle. Good but not overpowering, with a toolkit to handle the unforseen.
 
For the pilot issue, I needed  something to make being high PS worth it. The actual dial of the Bwing isnt bad, but half of it is locked behind fear of red maneuvers, and even if you take that leap, you are locked out of your ability to dodge out of an enemy arc with the barrel roll.
 
The VCX has a similar dial, however, and shows one solution- Hera. a FCS/stress stacking VCX has a wide open dial while still being able to modify it's results a long as it stays on the same target. The T70's Primed Thrusters offer another approach, allowing post maneuver movement after red maneuvers or while stressed, as long as you arnt TOO badly stressed.
I combined these two approaches.
WUGm1jR.jpg
Ibstan and Farlander no longer fear their abilities and everyone's dials open up immencely. Though they lose the ability to focus or TL, their ability to evade arcs remains intact, as long as ther stress does not get TOO high. And one cannot overstate the utility of throwing a 2K into a furball, failing with a bump, and simply trying it again next round.

 

These were my solutions for the Bwing. The Xwing needed further enhancements to keep up, but I kept those in the relm of enhancing the strengths of the Xwing- powerful pilots, not a powerful spacecraft. A fixed price for an extra, free EPT, whether you already have an EPT equipped or not, is a strong effect, but one tied to the pilot inside the machine, not the machine itself.

OWClpMk.jpg
Edited by Rakaydos

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Now the real question is, how would you avoid the diminishing returns of the B-Wing when you start loading it up? What sorts of upgrades can you guys come up with to make the B-Wing more useful as a loaded up Ordinance and Cannon carrier? A new system slot that does something for Torpedoes (Possibly fixing the Punisher at the same time)? A new B-Wing only cannon that hits like a tank like the one we saw in Rebels? I'm honestly really curious how we can go about giving the B-Wing its role as a heavy weapons platform without making it a bloated points-pinata.

 

 

With the Custom Card League coming up later this month, I've been grappling with these same questions. But in addition to the problems you've stated, the Bwing has another problem.

 

Just as the Bwing's current slots go unused because they require loading up on points, so too do the named pilots go unused, for the same reason. Being PS8 or 10 hardly matters when a well placed academy pilot can cover every non-red maneuver with a range 1 attack "bucket", and half the pilots prefer to be stressed, locking down the barrel roll that is supposed to set the Bwing apart.

 

My solution for the Custom card league addesses your problem and mine with separate cards. For your issue, a modification, for all pilots, that gives the Bwing an arsonal without biasing it toward one weapon over another- A swiss army knife, but not a claymore.

 

iwcwr6G.jpg
 
Ion, Flechette, Tractors... they have utility, but they dont overpower the 3 die primary. This title gives them for free.
Likewise, Flechette and Plasma torpedos. As a modification, this prevents the use of Guidance Chips, and "three dice with TL vs 4 dice without" is the classic example of old style munitions being not worth their points. So for this ship, they DONT cost points, and their utility is just one more option in the Bwing's kit.
Manglers, Autoblasters, and HLCs... these offer things the Bwing lacks. And while you can take them cheaper than normal, you still have to pay for the privilage. 1 point to autocrit, 2 points for a range 1 undodgable attack. The HLC is still 4 points, on par with Expose or Opportunist, but without their drawbacks. Without FCS, Major Juggler puts a HLC Bwing's "correct" value at 26.2 points. With FCS, he values it at 27.5 points, leaving it slightly behind the Academy Pilot Tie fighter in efficency... but with the utility of the torpedoes and second cannon still available, anytime you want to give up raw power for finesse in the middle of battle. Good but not overpowering, with a toolkit to handle the unforseen.
 
For the pilot issue, I needed  something to make being high PS worth it. The actual dial of the Bwing isnt bad, but half of it is locked behind fear of red maneuvers, and even if you take that leap, you are locked out of your ability to dodge out of an enemy arc with the barrel roll.
 
The VCX has a similar dial, however, and shows one solution- Hera. a FCS/stress stacking VCX has a wide open dial while still being able to modify it's results a long as it stays on the same target. The T70's Primed Thrusters offer another approach, allowing post maneuver movement after red maneuvers or while stressed, as long as you arnt TOO badly stressed.
I combined these two approaches.
WUGm1jR.jpg
Ibstan and Farlander no longer fear their abilities and everyone's dials open up immencely. Though they lose the ability to focus or TL, their ability to evade arcs remains intact, as long as ther stress does not get TOO high. And one cannot overstate the utility of throwing a 2K into a furball, failing with a bump, and simply trying it again next round.

I do like some of your ideas here for the B-Wing. The Integrated Weapons Platform would definitely go a long way toward encouraging more usage of cannons and torpedoes on it rather than using it as a generic jouster. I still feel like the X-Wing should have a bump to its pure jousting efficiency, because as is, there's simply no real reason to take a generic X-Wing over a generic B-Wing. This would be especially true if you could toss two Plasma Torpedoes onto a B-Wing for no cost, along with an Ion Cannon and a Tractor Beam. All that on a 22 point B-Wing would make the generic X-Wing feel useless in comparison unless the X-Wing could straight-up out-joust the B-Wing.

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High PS awings are arcdodgers, low Ps are blockers.

Low ps xwing are (or should be) efficent jousters, but what are high PS xwings? What does points spent on PS get a ship that cannot react?

Because when people want to play the games namesake starfighter, they arnt wanting Generic Rookiee Pilot #3. They want Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antillies, Porkens. They want Corran, Garek "face" Loran, or Lt Kettish. They want General Merrik and the other veterans of Scarif.

Its this mid-to-high PS Im aiming to help. The actual price may need work, but the selling point of the Xwing should always be the pilots that fly it.

Edited by Rakaydos

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High PS awings are arcdodgers, low Ps are blockers.

Low ps xwing are (or should be) efficent jousters, but what are high PS xwings? What does points spent on PS get a ship that cannot react?

Because when people want to play the games namesake starfighter, they arnt wanting Generic Rookiee Pilot #3. They want Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antillies, Porkens. They want Corran, Garek "face" Loran, or Lt Kettish. They want General Merrik and the other veterans of Scarif.

Its this mid-to-high PS Im aiming to help. The actual price may need work, but the selling point of the Xwing should always be the pilots that fly it.

That's a fair point. It's something I had in mind when I made my title. It provides an easier way for the high pilot skill X-Wings to get an enemy in arc (With the new maneuver type), and it provides the X-Wing with a wide array of customization options to help players build out their X-Wing the way they want to fly it. If they want to go cheap and efficient, a generic with Guidance Astromech, Integrated Astromech, and Vectored Thrusters is only 25 points for a ship that has a decent dice mod regardless of actions, and the ability to barrel roll. If they want to go with an arc-dodging ace, they can toss Vectored Thrusters and Engine Upgrade on Wedge, making him cost the same price as Soontir Fel. Add Guidance Astromech or Targeting Astromech, and he gets a little pricier, but he'll be able to reposition fairly well, and his offense will be pretty deadly. Wes would also love being able to change the direction of his arc so he always has the proper enemy in his sights to strip tokens from, whether from boosting and/or barrel rolling, or from using my proposed maneuver. 

 

The biggest reason I'm not a fan of the EPT idea is because it's basically the same fix that A-Wings got. While I admit that it's plenty thematic for the X-Wing (Since those pilots are some of the best in Star Wars lore), I feel that the X-Wing pilots' abilities are reflected well enough on their cards that we don't need an extra EPT on each of them (Though I will admit I really, really want Hobbie to have Stay On Target). 

 

Granted, the extra mod idea has also been done with the TIE Interceptor, but at least that ship is in a different faction, so it doesn't quite feel as repetitive in this case. And given how customizeable the X-Wing is supposed to be, seeing as it's meant to be the jack-of-all-trades ship, it should have the option to take multiple modifications in order to suit whichever role it needs to fill. 

 

I get if you have a different opinion on this. After all, not everyone is going to agree on everything. I'm just trying to explain why I feel the way I do about the X-Wing.

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X-Wings in the movies aren't that tough, but the four cannons just keep spitting death till stuff dies.

Space Superiority Fighter

X-Wing only. Title.

If you miss with a Primary attack, you may immediately attack the same target again.

If you do so, you may not attack again this round.

Edited to add:

To speak more directly to the actual topic, I see the difference between the x and the b in that the x should be better at taking down nimble opponents (hence my suggestion above) while the B instead should excel against larger, less nimble opponents.

Edited by colki

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For the X-wing, I'd go:

T-65R (Torpedo, -1 point): You may equip a (system) upgrade worth 3 points or fewer.

Provide some other fixes via astromechs.

For the B-wing, E2 should have been a free title -- B-wings are capital ship killers and should be encouraged to have guidance chips. It now needs a hair more maneuverability or defense, so perhaps a discount on sensor jammer or some other electronic warfare upgrade to help them get in and get their ordnance off.

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Here's what I think the X-wing should look like (the links are the card's art):

goo.gl/AfA3zv
T-65C-A2 X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.
After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.
The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 0
 
goo.gl/nDoRil
T-65B X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.
When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.
The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 0
Edited by AwesomeJedi

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Or should it look like this:

goo.gl/AfA3zv
T-65C-A2 X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.
After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.
Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 1
 
goo.gl/nDoRil
T-65B X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.
When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.
Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 1

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Here's what I think the X-wing should look like (the links are the card's art):

goo.gl/AfA3zv
T-65C-A2 X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.
After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.
The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 0
 
goo.gl/nDoRil
T-65B X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.
When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.
The total squad point cost of <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrades equipped are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 0

 

 

 

 

Or should it look like this:

goo.gl/AfA3zv
T-65C-A2 X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing Only. Title.
After spending a focus token, you may receive one evade token.
Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 1
 
goo.gl/nDoRil
T-65B X-wing
Rebel Alliance Only. X-wing only. Title.
When you reveal a green maneuver, you may assign receive one focus token if you are not stressed.
Reduce the squad point cost of each <torpedo> and <astromech> Upgrade equipped by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
Cost: 1

 

Why?

 

Please explain your reasoning for this approach over another. What problems does your fix solve, what problems does it deliberately introduce or ignore, how does it affect named pilots compared to generics?

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