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Budgernaut

Epic ships as obstacles in standard tournament play

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You could also add in that the huge ship faction must match the players faction. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to have Scum and Rebels flying around a raider now does it?

I'd say that would be faq'd. Especially now that Scum is getting an Epic Ship.

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What we're trying to address here is the following logic:

 

1) People don't like buying huge ships because they "never use them" and usually play the standard format.

2) Huge ships have rules for being treated as obstacles and the standard format also uses obstacles.

3) If we incorporate the huge-ship-as-obstacle rule into standard tournament play, people may feel less "cheated" when they buy a huge ship for the power upgrades since they can still use the ship in standard play (as an obstacle instead of a ship).

4) So, are there any game-breaking or format-breaking issues that would prevent FFG from adding this rule and helping their consumers get extra use out of their plastic huge ships?

 

In regards to the fourth point:

 

I don't believe so. The only issue I could see is if you hit a Huge Ship obstacle it could be destroyed. If you eliminate that from the equation during use in standard/tournamnet play I'd be all for this.

 

Where is that in the Huge Ship rules? If the Huge ship runs over a smaller ship, it takes damage, but if another ship runs into it, it does not take damage. Also, you aren't allowed to target obstacles with regular attacks, so it's not going to be "hit."

 

 

You could also add in that the huge ship faction must match the players faction. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to have Scum and Rebels flying around a raider now does it?

I'm not as concerned about that. It could be a derelict craft, or you could have the Raider coming in to "stop the fighting," thematically. I think there are lots of ways to spin a story so that the presence of the huge ship makes sense. Conversely, you could say it only makes sense to have an out-of-faction huge ship because otherwise, why isn't it helping its allies? And then you could say it's because the ship is disabled or something. I just don't see the faction really affecting which ship to take. The ship token will just show a star field and the base is the same size for all epic ships, so it's really just for aesthetics. Let people bring whichever ship they own.

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Where is that in the Huge Ship rules? If the Huge ship runs over a smaller ship, it takes damage, but if another ship runs into it, it does not take damage. Also, you aren't allowed to target obstacles with regular attacks, so it's not going to be "hit."

 

 

 

I wasn't saying you could "target obstacles with attacks" - but there are some game effects that could remove obstacles from gameplay specifically seismic torpedoes. 

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Man, I totally forgot about that aspect of overlapping. When a small/large ship overlaps a huge ship, you follow the rules for "overlapping bases," so the small/large ship must move backwards along its base until it is touching the huge ship obstacle. That is a HUGE departure from normal obstacle rules, and may be a negative play experience. If you almost clear a typical obstacle, you knew you were taking a risk, but at least you're still pointed in the direction you want, i.e. you complete your maneuver. If you overlap a huge ship obstacle as part of a bank or turn, you could be wildly out of position.

 

...on second thought, since it's no different from overlapping typical ships, it really should be second nature. People would get over it, right? I mean, at least you don't lose your opportunity to attack, the way you would if you landed on an asteroid.

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The ship token will just show a star field and the base is the same size for all epic ships, so it's really just for aesthetics. Let people bring whichever ship they own.

 

Small point, but I don't think they are...just compared my CR-90 and Gozanti bases, and I make them just under 9" and 8", respectively...maybe not enough to matter, but just FYI  :unsure:

Edited by ianmiddy

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Epic ships as obstacles can lead to some strange situations. I like it in casuals, but not so much in tournaments.

 

1) 2 epics as obstacles at one table. Suddenly trying to maneuver between them is going to become annoying af.

 

2) Stressed and non-maneuverable ship like hwk can in theory bump with it in a way that it will not ever get out of bump. 

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2) Stressed and non-maneuverable ship like hwk can in theory bump with it in a way that it will not ever get out of bump. 

Very good point; I'll have to test this when I get home. However, the HWK will eventually be able to clear stress with green maneuvers, and then 4 straight out of there. If you're at such an angle that a 4 straight doesn't get you clear, you should be able to 2 turn cleanly.

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You could also add in that the huge ship faction must match the players faction. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to have Scum and Rebels flying around a raider now does it?

It makes sense if the Rebels and Scum are fighting for control of a disabled Raider derelict (otherwise why is that raider just sitting there not firing?).

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Epic ships as obstacles can lead to some strange situations. I like it in casuals, but not so much in tournaments.

 

1) 2 epics as obstacles at one table. Suddenly trying to maneuver between them is going to become annoying af.

 

2) Stressed and non-maneuverable ship like hwk can in theory bump with it in a way that it will not ever get out of bump. 

 

Not really, you can fly through them without penalty you just can't overlap them. Plus they still have to stay at range 1 apart which is enough room for even a large base. It could be more interesting than the standard asteroid field that all ships have been fighting in.

 

Still that and a few more debris cloud tokens could keep the play mat interesting. Turn 0 is starting to get a little stale.

Edited by Marinealver

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2) Stressed and non-maneuverable ship like hwk can in theory bump with it in a way that it will not ever get out of bump. 

Very good point; I'll have to test this when I get home. However, the HWK will eventually be able to clear stress with green maneuvers, and then 4 straight out of there. If you're at such an angle that a 4 straight doesn't get you clear, you should be able to 2 turn cleanly.

Tested and confirmed: there is a sweet spot (err...sour spot) where a HWK can bump the corner of a huge ship, and neither a 3-straight nor the 2-turns will clear. However, the 3-bank that cuts across the huge ship clears, so even if the HWK was stressed, it could get out. There is always a way out. Now, a stressed B-wing is another story. That ship would have to perform green maneuvers, bumping in place until it was stress-free, and then perform either the red 4-straight or red 3-bank. Ha ha ha! (I hate B-wings; serves them right).

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I like the idea... But I can understand someone coming with Dash to a tournament would be a bit taken aback by this big asteroid....

Yeah, but that's kind of (but not entirely) like IG-88 having to face a ton of debris tokens. It's a really bad matchup, but that's just how it goes.

 

And my understanding is that even though you treat overlapping the huge ship like a ship overlap, because it is an obstacle, Dash (pilot) should still get his action if he overlaps the huge ship and would not roll for damage, so he still doesn't have to steer clear of it like other ships would.

 

Meanwhile, Dash (crew) has the benefit of hiding behind this HUGE obstruction, gaining the defensive bonus, but his own attacks cannot be obstructed by it.

 

I can see how a person could be taken aback by it if caught unawares, but after this rule has been around for a while, people will start seeing the tactics behind this new choice in obstacles.

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Seismic torps. Epic obstacle go boom.

 

Huge ship obstacles are already immune to attacks and cannot be destroyed, but Seismic Torpedoes aren't secondary weapons and they "remove the obstacle" rather than destroying it. They should work on huge ship obstacles just like any asteroid or debris cloud.

 

Sounds like fun, actually. You could very well end up with games that have no obstacles on the board after the first round, which is kind of interesting. It's possible that this will regulate itself, and overall I'm in favor of more obstacle choices.

 

maybe if the epic obstacle go boom then is replaced by debris either by 3 pieces or one large one that came in with the Imperial rider.

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The gameplay rules for the obstacle shouldn't be too much of a problem I wouldn't think. Flying around it is going to take a little extra attention from the players, but shouldn't be problematic.

 

The only major problems / potential Npe (hate that acronym) that I can see is likely to arise during setup.

 

The first potential issue comes from initiative: I don't see it taken advantage of all that often currently, but it's a little known fact that when you place an obstacle, it can be one of your opponents instead of one of yours.

So bringing an epic ship for an obstacle only for your opponent to take the initiative and put it down parallel to your deployment zone at R2 might be a little discouraging. I do know a few players who might do that; I think we all do.

 

Obviously as people have previously mentioned, the ship would have to count as 3 obstacles and consume all of your available obstacle placements when you put it down.

This of course requires secondary obstacle placement rules to prevent the following sequence of events:

Player 1 places asteroid

player 2 places asteroid

player 1 places asteroid

player 2 places epic ship.

 

Such a sequence of obstacle placements should obviously not be allowed.

 

We should probably also look into the possible occurrence of a player bringing an epic ship, winning initiative, and going first with one of the opponents normal obstacles; effectively tying the other player into placing the epic ship.

 

Basically I see no gameplay problems with it, but I think it does turn obstacle placement into a minefield of potential initiative and etiquette problems.

 

Yes, there is the potential fix of only allowing a player to place their own obstacles, but up until now, the ability to place your opponents has been an interesting and worthwhile nuance of game setup. I would hate to lose that in the process of allowing this into the game.

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In the huge ship rules it states that the huge ship must be placed first. In casual games, that means the player who brought the huge ship gets to place it first. In tournaments, it would have to follow initiative, meaning if a player has initiative, and the huge ship is in the obstacle pool, then he/she has to play the huge ship instead of the rocks. That doesn't work well at all. Any ideas to get around that? Could the person with initiative get to choose rocks or ship?

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The question is, if someone brought 3 of the biggest obstacles possible, is there a configuration that prevents a legal placement of the ship? I don't think there is, so it shouldn't be a problem to allow the ship to be placed at any point during obstacle deployment. If you can block a ship out of legal placement, then it needs to be placed first.

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The question is, if someone brought 3 of the biggest obstacles possible, is there a configuration that prevents a legal placement of the ship? I don't think there is, so it shouldn't be a problem to allow the ship to be placed at any point during obstacle deployment. If you can block a ship out of legal placement, then it needs to be placed first.

Yes and no;

 

Because the ship counts as 3 obstacles, the player who places the ship should not be allowed to place any other obstacles. Otherwise that player has gained an advantage by having more control over the battlefield than their opponent.

 

From there it follows that if player 1 chooses to place a normal obstacle, player 2 must then choose to place the ship. The remainder of the obstacles would then be placed by player 1.

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In the huge ship rules it states that the huge ship must be placed first. In casual games, that means the player who brought the huge ship gets to place it first. In tournaments, it would have to follow initiative, meaning if a player has initiative, and the huge ship is in the obstacle pool, then he/she has to play the huge ship instead of the rocks. That doesn't work well at all. Any ideas to get around that? Could the person with initiative get to choose rocks or ship?

 

How about:

  • If only one player brings a huge ship, they place that ship first, and then the other player places all of their obstacles.
  • If both players have a huge ship, the player with initiative places theirs first.

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The question is, if someone brought 3 of the biggest obstacles possible, is there a configuration that prevents a legal placement of the ship? I don't think there is, so it shouldn't be a problem to allow the ship to be placed at any point during obstacle deployment. If you can block a ship out of legal placement, then it needs to be placed first.

Yes and no;

 

Because the ship counts as 3 obstacles, the player who places the ship should not be allowed to place any other obstacles. Otherwise that player has gained an advantage by having more control over the battlefield than their opponent.

 

From there it follows that if player 1 chooses to place a normal obstacle, player 2 must then choose to place the ship. The remainder of the obstacles would then be placed by player 1.

 

This is a very good point. On the one hand, placing obstacles in addition to the huge ship gives a player a lot of control over the battlefield based on total area affected. On the other hand, allowing a player to place multiple obstacles consecutively after a huge ship has been placed gives an equal advantage to that player because they can react perfectly. It seems to me that no matter how obstacles are placed, it is going to be unfair when huge ships are involved. I was hoping the consensus in this thread would be that there is no reason for FFG to not allow huge ships as obstacles during tournaments, but this problem seems to indicate that they would need to write out and test new rules. It just doesn't seem balanced enough to port over the huge-ship-as-obstacle rule into standard tournament play.

 

We can keep on discussing ways they could make it more balanced, but my I believe my original goal for this thread has been achieved, unfortunately to the detriment of this idea.

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In the huge ship rules it states that the huge ship must be placed first. In casual games, that means the player who brought the huge ship gets to place it first. In tournaments, it would have to follow initiative, meaning if a player has initiative, and the huge ship is in the obstacle pool, then he/she has to play the huge ship instead of the rocks. That doesn't work well at all. Any ideas to get around that? Could the person with initiative get to choose rocks or ship?

I think that work very well if you chose to bring huge ship as obstacle you make sure that you win initiative by listing less than 100 point squad or come to terms with possibility that opponent may place yours huge ship instead of you

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