Valen Three Way

[Democratus 1,698]

There is no contradiction (direct or otherwise). The rules can be followed to the letter without having to ignore other rules.

 

Q1: Am I engaged?
A1: Yes: by Valen, two phantoms, and a TIE Bomber.
Q2: Is it possible to attack one of the engaging squadrons?
A2: Yes, but only the TIE Bomber.
Q3: Must I attack the TIE Bomber instead of the ship?
Q4: Yes, because I am engaged with an actual squadron without heavy, which forces me to shoot at an engaged squadron if possible.

 

This covers it without any conflicts.

 

If you are engaged with a non-heavy squadron you are not allowed to shoot at a ship.

 

In this case, the attacker must attack a squadron. The only squadron that can be attacked is the TIE Bomber. QED.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

There is no contradiction (direct or otherwise). The rules can be followed to the letter without having to ignore other rules.

And how, then, is the TIE Bomber not "preventing engaged squadrons from attacking ships"?

I'd say this is very much a contradiction. And Heavy should prevail.

 

If you are engaged with a non-heavy squadron you are not allowed to shoot at a ship.

 

Except that's not the rule. The rule is "if you are engaged with a non-heavy squadron that you can shoot at, you are not allowed to shoot at a ship".

[Gowtah 196]

DA, I'm on mobile so can't really quote, but "To prevent attacking a ship, an engaging squadron must both:

(i) be a valid target for attack; and

(ii) not be Heavy." just isn't how it is.

Those conditions don't have to be fulfilled by a single squadron.

It's the other way around: an attacking squadron is prevented from attacking a ship if there's a non-heavy actual squadron engaging it (valen) and a possible target (bomber). Hence the bomber's heavy lack of relevance.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Well then, let's just agree to disagree until FFG proves one of us wrong.

[Democratus 1,698]

 

There is no contradiction (direct or otherwise). The rules can be followed to the letter without having to ignore other rules.

And how, then, is the TIE Bomber not "preventing engaged squadrons from attacking ships"?

I'd say this is very much a contradiction. And Heavy should prevail.

 

If you are engaged with a non-heavy squadron you are not allowed to shoot at a ship.

 

Except that's not the rule. The rule is "if you are engaged with a non-heavy squadron that you can shoot at, you are not allowed to shoot at a ship".

 

 

No. The rule is this (p. 6 of the RRG). Note the second bullet. It says nothing about "that you can shoot at".

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

 

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

 

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

 

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

 

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

 

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an enemy squadron. Only the

Edited January 11, 2017 by Democratus

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Well that's what "if possible" means.

 

If you can't shoot it, it's not possible.

[Democratus 1,698]

It's possible to shoot the bomber. Therefore you can't shoot the ship.

[Gowtah 196]

Well that was the crux of the problem that prompted the instigator FAQ. Because with rules as they are, the phantoms did prevent shooting at the ship.

With the instigator FAQ worded as it is, "squadrons can attack this ship if they are not engaged by an actual enemy squadron with out heavy", the engagement rule "it must attack an engaged squadron if possible" still stands.

Heavy is irrelevant here because it's not the bomber engagement preventing the ship shot, it's Valen's.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

It's possible to shoot the bomber. Therefore you can't shoot the ship.

 

It's also possible to shoot the bomber when Instigator or Valen aren't there. Are you saying Heavy never works?

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Heavy is irrelevant here because it's not the bomber engagement preventing the ship shot, it's Valen's.

 

Engaged with Instigator only - you can attack the ship.

Engaged with Instigator and Valen - you can attack the ship.

 

And yet they are the ones preventing the attack if a TIE Bomber suddenly appears?

Edited January 11, 2017 by DiabloAzul

[Gowtah 196]

Heh, I'm not advocating that it's a sane mechanic. I'm just saying that strictly reading the rules and FAQ and cards, that's how it works.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Gowtah

[Frimmel 2,593]

All these folks always trying to get their bombers on escort duty. 

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Heh, I'm not advocating that's a sane mechanic. I'm just saying that strictly reading the rules and FAQ and cards, that's how it works.

 

Well, just for the record, I'm arguing RAW too (I only have a passing interest in RAI).

 

Anyway, like I said, I'm happy to wait and see.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

...before we get to 19 pages of circular arguments. Or before Dras runs out of colours   

[Gowtah 196]

Well I'm just arguing because I can't find any RAW that let you shoot at the ship

Nothing breaks Valen engagement, which forces a shot on a squadron if possible.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Just chiming in with my thoughts. 

 

Valen and Instigator can tie down and engage enemy squads, while the Tie/B cannot.

You can never attack Valen since the Tie/B is there, therefore Valen is an illegal target. 

Thus, an enemy squad can shoot Instigator because the Tie/B has Heavy. 

 

Valen's "cannot" is an absolute golden rule and overrides any other FAQ or RRG. Essentially, Valen is removed from the equation in regards to a legal target for a squad to attack.

[Madaghmire 7,276]

#teamchartreusebomberabuse

[Frimmel 2,593]

#teamchartreusebomberabuse

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

Just chiming in with my thoughts. 

 

Valen and Instigator can tie down and engage enemy squads, while the Tie/B cannot.

You can never attack Valen since the Tie/B is there, therefore Valen is an illegal target. 

Thus, an enemy squad can shoot Instigator because the Tie/B has Heavy. 

 

Valen's "cannot" is an absolute golden rule and overrides any other FAQ or RRG. Essentially, Valen is removed from the equation in regards to a legal target for a squad to attack.

I have no idea how FFG will rule on this, but...

 

Wouldn't this basically remove Valen's engagement rules?  Essentially making him heavy? 

[Gowtah 196]

Yeah that isn't how engagement works at all.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

...before we get to 19 pages of circular arguments. Or before Dras runs out of colours 

 

 

Just don't feel there's any point to arguing this one anymore.

[Plagueis 211]

To prevent attacking a ship, an engaging squadron must both:

(i) be a valid target for attack; and

(ii) not be Heavy.

It's not sufficient to have some squadrons fufil (i) and others (ii). At least one engaging squadron must meet both conditions simultaneously. Otherwise the ship is a valid target.

I think this really nails it on the head, the fact that neither Val or the bomber meets both conditions you can indeed target the ship... and I really don't see how you can force a squadron to target a heavy.

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

 

...before we get to 19 pages of circular arguments. Or before Dras runs out of colours 

 

 

Just don't feel there's any point to arguing this one anymore.

 

New Dras "House" Rule (I mean this is his house right?):

 

After an argument reaches more than two pages we move on...send the FAQ question to FFG and let them handle it

 

[Drasnighta 26,832]

 

 

...before we get to 19 pages of circular arguments. Or before Dras runs out of colours 

 

 

Just don't feel there's any point to arguing this one anymore.

 

New Dras "House" Rule (I mean this is his house right?):

 

After an argument reaches more than two pages we move on...send the FAQ question to FFG and let them handle it

 

 

 

 

No just beat dras mentally enough and he stops caring.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

 

Just chiming in with my thoughts. 

 

Valen and Instigator can tie down and engage enemy squads, while the Tie/B cannot.

You can never attack Valen since the Tie/B is there, therefore Valen is an illegal target. 

Thus, an enemy squad can shoot Instigator because the Tie/B has Heavy. 

 

Valen's "cannot" is an absolute golden rule and overrides any other FAQ or RRG. Essentially, Valen is removed from the equation in regards to a legal target for a squad to attack.

I have no idea how FFG will rule on this, but...

 

Wouldn't this basically remove Valen's engagement rules?  Essentially making him heavy? 

 

What else would you do? You're basically in a deadlock situation. Can't shoot Valen cuz of Tie/B. Can't shoot Instigator cuz of Valen. But you can shoot the Tie/B. But the Tie/B has Heavy and Valen is not a legal target so where do you go from there?