Raining Cats and Jedi

[emsquared 779]

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

Move someone else to the ground? That's great, go nuts. Two ppl Moving each other to the ground simultaneously even, so they're both floating to the ground together? Absolutely.

Move yourself? IMO that's the domain of Enhance. Simple as that for me really.

And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say my opinion is the only right way. Of course ppl should do what is best for their table, I'm just putting my opinion up here for anyone who comes along with the same line of inquiry to let them know your way isn't the one answer either.

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

 

 

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

Move someone else to the ground? That's great, go nuts. Two ppl Moving each other to the ground simultaneously even, so they're both floating to the ground together? Absolutely.

Move yourself? IMO that's the domain of Enhance. Simple as that for me really.

And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say my opinion is the only right way. Of course ppl should do what is best for their table, I'm just putting my opinion up here for anyone who comes along with the same line of inquiry to let them know your way isn't the one answer either.

 

 

We have canon examples for move use, Dooku nearly always prefers to use move over enhance to prevent falls. We have as well the word of the devs that levitation can be done via move. And I am certainly not saying that jumping downwards via enhanced is bad, I merely state that there is more than one way to achieve a goal. 

[emsquared 779]

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

Move someone else to the ground? That's great, go nuts. Two ppl Moving each other to the ground simultaneously even, so they're both floating to the ground together? Absolutely.

Move yourself? IMO that's the domain of Enhance. Simple as that for me really.

And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say my opinion is the only right way. Of course ppl should do what is best for their table, I'm just putting my opinion up here for anyone who comes along with the same line of inquiry to let them know your way isn't the one answer either.

 

We have canon examples for move use, Dooku nearly always prefers to use move over enhance to prevent falls. We have as well the word of the devs that levitation can be done via move. And I am certainly not saying that jumping downwards via enhanced is bad, I merely state that there is more than one way to achieve a goal.

You saw Dooku roll his Move pool and not his Enhance!? Please take that in the joking fashion it was meant, my point is you can't say with finality which he used, due to the narrative flexibility of the system. If Vaders hand Deflection, or Ren's stopping a bolt in mid-air are just flavors of mechanical powers that don't "normally" manifest in that way, there is no reason that a controlled fall isn't a flavored Enhance leap.

It's not about what you see in the various abstracted media, for me, it's about what I see as right for mechanical balance at my table.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

In an episode of The Clone Wars, we see Ahsoka and Anakin slowing their own falls by stretching out their hands in front of them the way they do when using the Force to move something. That's not what Athletics or Coordination looks like by any stretch of the imagination.

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

 

 

 

 

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

Move someone else to the ground? That's great, go nuts. Two ppl Moving each other to the ground simultaneously even, so they're both floating to the ground together? Absolutely.

Move yourself? IMO that's the domain of Enhance. Simple as that for me really.

And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say my opinion is the only right way. Of course ppl should do what is best for their table, I'm just putting my opinion up here for anyone who comes along with the same line of inquiry to let them know your way isn't the one answer either.

 

We have canon examples for move use, Dooku nearly always prefers to use move over enhance to prevent falls. We have as well the word of the devs that levitation can be done via move. And I am certainly not saying that jumping downwards via enhanced is bad, I merely state that there is more than one way to achieve a goal.

You saw Dooku roll his Move pool and not his Enhance!? Please take that in the joking fashion it was meant, my point is you can't say with finality which he used, due to the narrative flexibility of the system. If Vaders hand Deflection, or Ren's stopping a bolt in mid-air are just flavors of mechanical powers that don't "normally" manifest in that way, there is no reason that a controlled fall isn't a flavored Enhance leap.

It's not about what you see in the various abstracted media, for me, it's about what I see as right for mechanical balance at my table.

 

 

He shows levitation abilities. If you want to add levitation to the enhance tree feel free to enhance the tree, but it certainly is not covered by force leap nor anything else in the official enhance tree. ;-)

 

[Benjan Meruna 797]

No, I looking at the movie by itself and clear-eyed, instead of in the context of decades of expanded universe material and villain hype.

 

Everything I listed hyping Vader happened within the movie itself.

 

There's also the fact that Kenobi had no difficulty dueling Vader.  He wasn't struggling to last a couple of turns, he wasn't even out of breath.  He wasn't planning on winning, but only because he had a different path to victory in mind, which is why he stopped fighting once he saw Luke within reach of escape.  This wasn't a single starting level PC fighting a nerfed version of the arc villain (who even does that in their games?  All I can think of are those early hopeless boss battles in computer RPGs you sometimes get, but even those are usually presented in a way that makes the villain's superiority clear), this was the old-PC-turned-NPC Group Mentor (a starting resource) being established as a Force ghost to continue training the party Force-users without dominating the storyline.

 

Edit:  Try to look at it this way: if it had been Luke who ran into Vader  and not Obi-Wan, and Luke had taken out his lightsaber and gone for a duel...do you think he would have fared as well as Obi-Wan?

Edited January 19, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[emsquared 779]

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

Move someone else to the ground? That's great, go nuts. Two ppl Moving each other to the ground simultaneously even, so they're both floating to the ground together? Absolutely.

Move yourself? IMO that's the domain of Enhance. Simple as that for me really.

And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say my opinion is the only right way. Of course ppl should do what is best for their table, I'm just putting my opinion up here for anyone who comes along with the same line of inquiry to let them know your way isn't the one answer either.

 

We have canon examples for move use, Dooku nearly always prefers to use move over enhance to prevent falls. We have as well the word of the devs that levitation can be done via move. And I am certainly not saying that jumping downwards via enhanced is bad, I merely state that there is more than one way to achieve a goal.

You saw Dooku roll his Move pool and not his Enhance!? Please take that in the joking fashion it was meant, my point is you can't say with finality which he used, due to the narrative flexibility of the system. If Vaders hand Deflection, or Ren's stopping a bolt in mid-air are just flavors of mechanical powers that don't "normally" manifest in that way, there is no reason that a controlled fall isn't a flavored Enhance leap.

It's not about what you see in the various abstracted media, for me, it's about what I see as right for mechanical balance at my table.

 

He shows levitation abilities. If you want to add levitation to the enhance tree feel free to enhance the tree, but it certainly is not covered by force leap nor anything else in the official enhance tree. ;-)

In an episode of The Clone Wars, we see Ahsoka and Anakin slowing their own falls by stretching out their hands in front of them the way they do when using the Force to move something. That's not what Athletics or Coordination looks like by any stretch of the imagination.

Whether you at jumping up to medium range platform, or you are levitating, there is no mechanical difference between the end result. The only difference is flavor. You clearly aren't willing to try to understand my point (because it proves you, not wrong, but that I am also right), other threads have demonstrated that the looks of a Power is irrelevant to its mechanical effect, all you keep saying is, "but it looks like this here!" If you can't bring anything new or counter to my point you've lost.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Edit:  Try to look at it this way: if it had been Luke who ran into Vader  and not Obi-Wan, and Luke had taken out his lightsaber and gone for a duel...do you think he would have fared as well as Obi-Wan?

No, because he didn't have any ranks in lightsaber.

Also, Vader wasn't trying to kill Obi-Wan right at the start. He wanted to talk to the guy before killing him. So that's why Obi-Wan could last a couple of rounds. But he had no hope of standing up to Vader, so when he goes down in one hit, the player and the GM describe it as Obi-Wan going all serene and sacrificing himself to make it a better story than "oops, a new player didn't appreciate how lethal combat is".

Vader is a lapdog in the movie. Tarkin gives him orders. The only significant character he kills is Obi-Wan, and Han and Chewbacca out-fight him.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

You clearly aren't willing to try to understand my point (because it proves you, not wrong, but that I am also right), other threads have demonstrated that the looks of a Power is irrelevant to its mechanical effect, all you keep saying is, "but it looks like this here!" If you can't bring anything new or counter to my point you've lost.

What the hell. Have we ever even interacted before your ridiculously hostile comment here? Man, if that's how you want to talk to me, I have no interest in talking to you.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

Edit:  Try to look at it this way: if it had been Luke who ran into Vader  and not Obi-Wan, and Luke had taken out his lightsaber and gone for a duel...do you think he would have fared as well as Obi-Wan?

No, because he didn't have any ranks in lightsaber.

Also, Vader wasn't trying to kill Obi-Wan right at the start. He wanted to talk to the guy before killing him. So that's why Obi-Wan could last a couple of rounds. But he had no hope of standing up to Vader, so when he goes down in one hit, the player and the GM describe it as Obi-Wan going all serene and sacrificing himself to make it a better story than "oops, a new player didn't appreciate how lethal combat is".

Vader is a lapdog in the movie. Tarkin gives him orders. The only significant character he kills is Obi-Wan, and Han and Chewbacca out-fight him.

 

 

1.  How the heck does ranks in lightsaber matter here?  They don't increase your ability to survive, and the max a starting character can have is 2 ranks anyways.  You'd have a better chance with Parry, but a rank or two of parry blocks 3-4 damage, starting characters have 10-14 wounds (and I seriously doubt Obi-Wan put points in Brawn), and an upgraded lightsaber (which Vader would obviously have) does upwards of 9 damage and ignores Soak.  Parry or not, you're still going down on the second round.  

 

2.  Vader did talk to Obi-Wan.  Then they started fighting, and talking turned to taunting.  That doesn't mean that Vader 'wasn't trying.'  

 

3.  I'm not sure how Tarkin giving Vader orders has any effect on his abilities with the Force or a lightsaber, which are established as formidable due to his reputation as a Jedi-killer.    I also don't see how being ambushed by a light-freighter has any bearing on his lightsaber and Force abilities.  You're kind of going into non-sequiturs, here.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

1) I'm pretty sure you know that this was a flippant way to say Luke's not a lightsaber combatant, while Obi-Wan is. Come on, let's not be hostile to each other like that other poster.

2) It means he wasn't trying - not very hard, at least - while they were talking. You can spin the entire fight as social skill use until Vader just ends it with a single combat check.

3) We're talking about Vader's power level compared to the heroes. His failures and limitations and defeats at their hands speak to that.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

1) I'm pretty sure you know that this was a flippant way to say Luke's not a lightsaber combatant, while Obi-Wan is. Come on, let's not be hostile to each other like that other poster.

2) It means he wasn't trying - not very hard, at least - while they were talking. You can spin the entire fight as social skill use until Vader just ends it with a single combat check.

3) We're talking about Vader's power level compared to the heroes. His failures and limitations and defeats at their hands speak to that.

 

1.  What I was pointing out is that the difference between a starting lightsaber combatant and a starting non-lightsaber combatant is 2 ranks in Lightsaber and a rank in Parry.  It's not a big difference, the same way that the difference between a starting Ace and a starting non-Ace piloting skill is minimal.  That's not hostility, it's just kind of absurd that you're trying to argue this.  Starting characters in this game are low-power enough that the differences between them are not very pronounced, which is why it makes no sense that you would suggest that the talented lightsaber duelist is a starting character.

 

2.  Where are you getting the impression that taunting you opponent doesn't mean you're trying very hard?  Trying to verbally get the other guy off-balance is indicative of either a close match that one needs an edge in, or a complete curb-stomp where the other guy doesn't have a chance.  Given Obi-Wan's cool, lack of sweat, and complete ease of parrying Vader, it's obvious that the latter is not the case.

 

3.  Vader's lightsaber 'power level' has nothing to do with his political influence.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

But Obi-Wan's combat stats only matter if Vader was trying to kill him the whole time, which he clearly wasn't, what with wanting to prove to his old teacher just how awesome he's become. The fight was a social encounter as much as a combat one, and that means social skill checks instead of combat checks. Which means Obi-Wan doesn't have to show wear and tear, since he's not yet getting hammered.

Vader's ability with a lightsaber has to do with his role in the story. He doesn't need to be some combat god if he's only going to go up against new characters. That his backstory has him as a Jedi killer doesn't mean his stats need to be high enough to take on characters with thousands of XP.

[emsquared 779]

What the hell. Have we ever even interacted before your ridiculously hostile comment here? Man, if that's how you want to talk to me, I have no interest in talking to you.

Ridiculously hostile? Ooook... I won't even get into how your qualifier "by any stretch of the imagination" is an aggression statement...

Your post that was clearly directed at my post was reflecting the same point as SEA, so I lumped your quote in to my response as it nullified your point as well. The greater conversation about a debate I thought would clearly have been illustrated by, well, the extensive greater conversation and debate that I quoted first from SEA. Sorry if I offended you.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

But Obi-Wan's combat stats only matter if Vader was trying to kill him the whole time, which he clearly wasn't,

 

 

Bullsith.  The moment he got an opportunity for a killing strike, he went for it.  There is never any suggestion that Vader is trying to do anything other than kill Obi-Wan.  Taunting doesn't denote a lack of desire to kill.

 

 

 

Vader's ability with a lightsaber has to do with his role in the story.

 

And his role in the story is the fabled Jedi killer who killed Luke Jedi father and now, his mentor.  If any chump with starting XP and a lightsaber can give him trouble, he loses all impact in the narrative as a serious threat to be dealt with.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Benjan Meruna 797]

Edit: doublepost

Edited January 19, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Bullsith.  The moment he got an opportunity for a killing strike, he went for it.  There is never any suggestion that Vader is trying to do anything other than kill Obi-Wan.  Taunting doesn't denote a lack of desire to kill.

 

I didn't say he doesn't want to kill him at all. But his primary desire is to show Obi-Wan that he's the master now. And that means Obi-Wan has to stay alive long enough to *be* taunted.

 

And his role in the story is the fabled Jedi killer who killed Luke Jedi father and now, his mentor.  If any chump with starting XP and a lightsaber can give him trouble, he loses all impact in the narrative as a serious threat to be dealt with.

Since Obi-Wan didn't give him trouble, that's entirely irrelevant.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Stan Fresh

[Benjan Meruna 797]

But again, he could have easily gone for a maiming strike instead of a killing one if he wanted to prolong the battle and keep Obi-Wan alive.  The fact that he took the killing strike when the opportunity arose says that the two were close to equal combatants, even if Vader did have enough edge to be confident in his victory.

 

Except he did.  He wanted to kill Obi-Wan, and had to wait until Obi-Wan deliberately gave him an opening.  You'll notice that Obi-Wan was not out of breath, sweating ,or in fact showing any signs of exertion during the fight.  How do you explain that, if it was such a big mismatch?

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

I already explained it. Vader was making social checks the first couple of rounds. Once he's got his satisfaction and Obi-Wan refuses to play his game anymore, Vader just kills him.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Stan Fresh

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Stan, if you look at the movies as one single campaign, starting with TPM (since, chronologically, that is the first "episode"), then it is obvious that by ANH, Obi Wan is definitely a very high XP character, just as Vader is a high Nemesis level NPC. By ANH, Obi Wan is a Mentor character, not a starting character. He was a starting character in TPM. 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

But A New Hope was the first movie; no reason to assume it's not the beginning of the campaign. Wouldn't be the first time a GM and players decided to continue in the form of a flashback/prequel campaign after the first campaign's finale.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

But A New Hope was the first movie; no reason to assume it's not the beginning of the campaign. Wouldn't be the first time a GM and players decided to continue in the form of a flashback/prequel campaign after the first campaign's finale.

It was the first movie produced, but not chronologically in the timeline. That is what is most important here. Obi Wan was established within the movie as having a great deal of knowledge and experience. Specifically, he was established as being a fully trained Jedi Master. He was not a starting character, he was the Mentor.

[kaosoe 7,573]

Viewing Episode IV through the lens of an RPG game, I'm in the "Obi Wan is an NPC" camp. He only has a couple of moments where the scene is entirely centered around him and what he is doing with no PC involvement. Furthermore, everything he does drives the plot towards the planned adventure ending. He does not fail because the GM needs him to succeed to advance the story. I suppose this is one of those YMMV moments.

Edited January 23, 2017 by kaosoe

[Decorus 672]

Vader didn't actually kill Obi Wan. Obi Wan became one with the force while alive hence the strike hitting empty robes.

[EliasWindrider 2,714]

Vader didn't actually kill Obi Wan. Obi Wan became one with the force while alive hence the strike hitting empty robes.

That's a pretty impressive force power.   Yoda also knew it.  Qui-Gon kind of sort of but not really.