Raining Cats and Jedi

[Richardbuxton 7,319]

Nice one Absol.

For the Move power option I would tweak it slightly:

Discipline or Coordination.

Reduce damage based on the Range of the power that your able to activate. You obviously need strength as well, and Magnitude to save your mates.

Success fully negates that number of range bands of damage.

Failure reduces it by half.

[syrath 1,316]

I remember in the Star Wars Rebel show Ezra and Kanan leaping from the Ghost onto a gas mining plant. As they were getting close to the facility they would push their arms forward like a Jedi using the move power. They did this to slow their decent and land safely. Well Kanan did, Ezra missed the bridge and almost died if it wasn't for his master saving him. That was the one with the space whales, you got to love space whales.

 

I've seen the same action done in the Clone Wars show too. It was the one when Anikan and Ahsoka jumped from a fortified dam with Rex. They pushed their arms forward right before landing, and saved Rex with the move power before he hit the ground. I think that episode was in a battle on geonosis.

 

To me it looks like a use of the move power. Like if they were push down onto the ground before going splat.

That gas mining plant (and even Ezras home planet Lothal would have much lower gravity making stunts like this easier, this is even called out when zeb falls on top of Ezra when he says he isnt that heavy in this gravity, the gas mine was on an asteroid with little in the way of atmo.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

 

I remember in the Star Wars Rebel show Ezra and Kanan leaping from the Ghost onto a gas mining plant. As they were getting close to the facility they would push their arms forward like a Jedi using the move power. They did this to slow their decent and land safely. Well Kanan did, Ezra missed the bridge and almost died if it wasn't for his master saving him. That was the one with the space whales, you got to love space whales.

 

I've seen the same action done in the Clone Wars show too. It was the one when Anikan and Ahsoka jumped from a fortified dam with Rex. They pushed their arms forward right before landing, and saved Rex with the move power before he hit the ground. I think that episode was in a battle on geonosis.

 

To me it looks like a use of the move power. Like if they were push down onto the ground before going splat.

That gas mining plant (and even Ezras home planet Lothal would have much lower gravity making stunts like this easier, this is even called out when zeb falls on top of Ezra when he says he isnt that heavy in this gravity, the gas mine was on an asteroid with little in the way of atmo.

 

In The Clone Wars, Anakin and Ahsoka do this on Geonosis, which definitely has standard gravity.

[R5D8 420]

Maybe they should come out with a universal specialization named something like Jedi Academy Graduate that includes nothing but generic powers that we see all Jedi using during the movies and shows, so that a Jedi player doesn't have to buy 5 specializations in order to be able to deflect blasters, parry lightsabers, leap from ships, etc.

Either that or start making Force Powers that mimic those talents somewhere in the power tree.

I dunno.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Maybe they should come out with a universal specialization named something like Jedi Academy Graduate that includes nothing but generic powers that we see all Jedi using during the movies and shows, so that a Jedi player doesn't have to buy 5 specializations in order to be able to deflect blasters, parry lightsabers, leap from ships, etc.

Either that or start making Force Powers that mimic those talents somewhere in the power tree.

I dunno.

Bear in mind that by default, the assumption in Force and Destiny is that the PCs do not benefit from a lifetime of intensive training that being raised as part of the Jedi Order would impart.

 

If anything, the PCs are more like the first few crop of students from Luke's Yavin 4 Praxuem for his New Jedi Order in Legends.  They are mostly people that grew up having only the vaguest idea that they could use the Force, and didn't spend hours a day training and refining that sensitivity to the Force.

 

So, it makes sense that if a FaD PC wants to fully replicate the skills and abilities of a Jedi Knight, they're going to need to grab a few different specializations.

 

Also, keep in mind that folks like Anakin and Obi-Wan (and even Ahsoka) were likely the super-star athletes of the Jedi Order.  Most of the rank-and-file Jedi would be capable, but probably not to such a broad degree; if anything Anakinand Obi-Wan are to regular Jedi Knights what medal-winning Olympic athletes are to high-school athletes.

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Ezra can do a whole bunch of Force stuff even in the first season of Rebels, though, and he's certainly had no Force training whatsoever prior to meeting Kanan. And he advances very quickly after the show starts.

And it doesn't matter that Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptionally competent. Other character types get to emulate their idols - Han or R2 or whoever. The system treats Jedi differently from other characters in a way that lessens the experience for their players only, instead of being designed in a way that this issue doesn't arise in the first place. That's really klunky.

[DarthTaxus 15]

Ezra can do a whole bunch of Force stuff even in the first season of Rebels, though, and he's certainly had no Force training whatsoever prior to meeting Kanan. And he advances very quickly after the show starts.

And it doesn't matter that Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptionally competent. Other character types get to emulate their idols - Han or R2 or whoever. The system treats Jedi differently from other characters in a way that lessens the experience for their players only, instead of being designed in a way that this issue doesn't arise in the first place. That's really klunky.

 

I'm sad that your experience or impression of Force-user PCs seems less than the potential of non-Force-using characters. 

If trying to compare Han Solo or R2D2 to a Jedi (using your word, "Jedi"), I think we begin comparing apples and oranges. 

A Droid PC can have a boastful characteristic of 6, but a versatile and universal human - not as easily. Is this also unbalanced, then?

NO PC begins as a Jedi. To begin to emulate the films, we've Knight Level play, which is still only a beginning step along the Jedi path.

 

I imagine lots of Force users at table across the globe advance their Force-users without having immediate access to a mentor or explicit training.

 

What - specifically - do you wish a Force-using character COULD/Should do, but doesn't seem able to do?

First, might I ask if you've also stat'd up a high-level NON-Force user, too, for comparison's sake?

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

 

Ezra can do a whole bunch of Force stuff even in the first season of Rebels, though, and he's certainly had no Force training whatsoever prior to meeting Kanan. And he advances very quickly after the show starts.

And it doesn't matter that Anakin and Obi-Wan were exceptionally competent. Other character types get to emulate their idols - Han or R2 or whoever. The system treats Jedi differently from other characters in a way that lessens the experience for their players only, instead of being designed in a way that this issue doesn't arise in the first place. That's really klunky.

 

I'm sad that your experience or impression of Force-user PCs seems less than the potential of non-Force-using characters. 

If trying to compare Han Solo or R2D2 to a Jedi (using your word, "Jedi"), I think we begin comparing apples and oranges. 

A Droid PC can have a boastful characteristic of 6, but a versatile and universal human - not as easily. Is this also unbalanced, then?

NO PC begins as a Jedi. To begin to emulate the films, we've Knight Level play, which is still only a beginning step along the Jedi path.

 

I imagine lots of Force users at table across the globe advance their Force-users without having immediate access to a mentor or explicit training.

 

What - specifically - do you wish a Force-using character COULD/Should do, but doesn't seem able to do?

First, might I ask if you've also stat'd up a high-level NON-Force user, too, for comparison's sake?

 

 

No, comparing Han and Anakin and Obi-Wan and Luke and Leia and R2 with each other is exactly right, because they're all the heroes of the story, and the types of characters that players want to emulate. Someone playing a Smuggler can play the Han Solo fantasy from the start, someone playing a Diplomat can do a good Leia right away, but someone playing a Consular is months and months away from even approaching a young Obi-Wan.

 

I'm not talking about an imbalance in how powerful these character types are, I'm talking about how fun it is to play them, and how close they are to the source material players can be reasonably expected to want to emulate.

 

EDIT: There's no good reason, system-wise, to have Force-users work differently from other heroes. When the writers created this unnecessary division, they introduced a whole host of problems which have been discussed time and again on this forum. And it's a problem of their own making, since all heroes could have been handled with the same system. Just look at the Cortex Plus games, specifically Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and Smallville RPG. They manage to accurately and engagingly represent wildly different character types with massive power differences and make playing them in the same party both mechanically balanced and highly fun.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Stan Fresh

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

Well , even in ANH, Han was certainly not a "Starting" character, neither was Leia nor Obi Wan. Of all of the main cast, only Luke could really be considered a "starting XP" character. Han should easily be a 400-500 earned XP character, Leia about "Knight Level", and Obi Wan is easily a 1500+ earned XP character. 

[kaosoe 7,573]

I'm not as sold. Han appeared no more proficient in ANH than the rest of the crew. He just seems more willing attempt a crazy idea. And in the OT, he only really succeeded half the time.

Edited January 13, 2017 by kaosoe

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Yeah, I'd say that Han, Luke, and Leia are all about the same XP level, which could very easily be starting level.  Luke probably had the benefit of starting out as either a Sentinel/Racer or a Warrior/Starfighter Ace to account for his Force-sensitivity, his "quick" development of Sense was a hand-wave for his player having bought the ability (base power + defense Control upgrade) in spite of Luke not being aware of the Force.  But none of them seem supremely capable in ANH, with Luke's "miracle shot" probably being him using Sense to upgrade his combat check on top of spending a Destiny Point to ensure he was rolling as many Proficiency dice as possible to up the odds of rolling a Triumph.  The GM was probably also handing out XP like candy, especially to Luke who was something of a GM favorite and thus seen as the true "hero" of the story.

 

Obi-Wan by that point was a retired PC from the prior campaign who was brought back as an NPC to help get the plot moving and bring the main PCs together.

[Daeglan 5,950]

I'm not as sold. Han appeared no more proficient in ANH than the rest of the crew. He just seems more willing attempt a crazy idea. And in the OT, he only really succeeded half the time.

yeah I would put Han at maybe 50 xp more than Luke. 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

To me, they're obviously all starting characters. It's the beginning of their story, after all. Obi-Wan's past gets fleshed out in a prequel campaign, but that doesn't mean he's a high-level character in this one.

[EliasWindrider 2,714]

Yeah, I'd say that Han, Luke, and Leia are all about the same XP level, which could very easily be starting level.  Luke probably had the benefit of starting out as either a Sentinel/Racer or a Warrior/Starfighter Ace to account for his Force-sensitivity, his "quick" development of Sense was a hand-wave for his player having bought the ability (base power + defense Control upgrade) in spite of Luke not being aware of the Force.  But none of them seem supremely capable in ANH, with Luke's "miracle shot" probably being him using Sense to upgrade his combat check on top of spending a Destiny Point to ensure he was rolling as many Proficiency dice as possible to up the odds of rolling a Triumph.  The GM was probably also handing out XP like candy, especially to Luke who was something of a GM favorite and thus seen as the true "hero" of the story.

 

Obi-Wan by that point was a retired PC from the prior campaign who was brought back as an NPC to help get the plot moving and bring the main PCs together.

  

To me, they're obviously all starting characters. It's the beginning of their story, after all. Obi-Wan's past gets fleshed out in a prequel campaign, but that doesn't mean he's a high-level character in this one.

I'm with dono on this one, I think that Obi-Wan was a retired PC being used as an NPC.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

 

To me, they're obviously all starting characters. It's the beginning of their story, after all. Obi-Wan's past gets fleshed out in a prequel campaign, but that doesn't mean he's a high-level character in this one.

I'm with dono on this one, I think that Obi-Wan was a retired PC being used as an NPC.

 

 

Very clearly so, to me.  His 'fight' in the cantina was a single stroke that deftly left his opponent harmless but alive and his use of the Force is wildly successful every time we see him use it, to the point where it can be safely said that he's rolling more than a single Force die.  He also makes every single skill check we see him make, from his Coercion to make the Sand Raiders flee (could be a Deception, depending on how you read it) to his Negotiation roll against Han (who is NOT an easy mark, even if he was a bit desperate at the time) to his Stealth checks on board the Death Star.  Finally, anyone managing to go toe-to-toe with DARTH VADER simply HAS to have Parry out the wazoo, and the strain to maintain it until Luke came running by.  Overall, it's overwhelmingly obvious that Obi-Wan is mechanically superior to the other 'PCs.'

 

That being said, there's definitely room (both in canon and in game mechanics) for Force-wielding player characters to grow quickly in strength.  In canon, Luke went from the mildly Sensitive rebel struggling to Move a Silhouette 0 lightsaber we see at the beginning of Ep. V to the confident shot reflecting mind-tricking Jedi candidate we see at the beginning of Ep VI in less than a year.  In game mechanics, depending how how much time get eaten up by travel, it's possible for a PC to go from FR 0 to 3+ (Which is what I consider 'Knight level') in that same timespan.  I don't think the progression of Force Sensitives needs to be sped up to make this happen.

 

 

 Someone playing a Smuggler can play the Han Solo fantasy from the start, someone playing a Diplomat can do a good Leia right away, but someone playing a Consular is months and months away from even approaching a young Obi-Wan.

 

 

But that's wrong.  A Smuggler or Diplomat starting out won't have the same level of ability that Leia and Han possess in ANH, because neither of them are starting characters either.  Resisting Vaders Coersion checks (with skilled assists from a torture droid, no less) suggests a very high Will stat and several ranks in the Dicipline skill and the Confidence Talent for Leia, while Han's piloting, gunnery, and blaster skills span a couple of potential careers.  The Special Edition (yes, I know) also ups his Negotiation/Charm resume a bit, successfully calming down an annoyed Hutt with no collateral but his reputation.  Overall, only Luke really seems new at all of this, and even he is enough of a skilled pilot that it's possible the GM just started everyone out at 150XP  (Obi-Wan is a mentor NPC and thus has stats are basically say 'sufficient for the task at hand up until his tragic death at the hands of the arc villain').

Edited January 17, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

I think you're unnecessarily, and artificially, inflating the challenges in order to claim that the heroes aren't starting characters, when this is the very first story they're in. A bit of backstory and the ability to meet some of the challenges of of the first adventure doesn't even remotely suggest someone is a high-XP character. This sounds completely backwards to me.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

 

To me, they're obviously all starting characters. It's the beginning of their story, after all. Obi-Wan's past gets fleshed out in a prequel campaign, but that doesn't mean he's a high-level character in this one.

I'm with dono on this one, I think that Obi-Wan was a retired PC being used as an NPC.

 

 

Very clearly so, to me.  His 'fight' in the cantina was a single stroke that deftly left his opponent harmless but alive and his use of the Force is wildly successful every time we see him use it, to the point where it can be safely said that he's rolling more than a single Force die.  He also makes every single skill check we see him make, from his Coercion to make the Sand Raiders flee (could be a Deception, depending on how you read it) to his Negotiation roll against Han (who is NOT an easy mark, even if he was a bit desperate at the time) to his Stealth checks on board the Death Star.  Finally, anyone managing to go toe-to-toe with DARTH VADER simply HAS to have Parry out the wazoo, and the strain to maintain it until Luke came running by.  Overall, it's overwhelmingly obvious that Obi-Wan is mechanically superior to the other 'PCs.'

 

That being said, there's definitely room (both in canon and in game mechanics) for Force-wielding player characters to grow quickly in strength.  In canon, Luke went from the mildly Sensitive rebel struggling to Move a Silhouette 0 lightsaber we see at the beginning of Ep. V to the confident shot reflecting mind-tricking Jedi candidate we see at the beginning of Ep VI in less than a year.  In game mechanics, depending how how much time get eaten up by travel, it's possible for a PC to go from FR 0 to 3+ (Which is what I consider 'Knight level') in that same timespan.  I don't think the progression of Force Sensitives needs to be sped up to make this happen.

 

 

 Someone playing a Smuggler can play the Han Solo fantasy from the start, someone playing a Diplomat can do a good Leia right away, but someone playing a Consular is months and months away from even approaching a young Obi-Wan.

 

 

But that's wrong.  A Smuggler or Diplomat starting out won't have the same level of ability that Leia and Han possess in ANH, because neither of them are starting characters either.  Resisting Vaders Coersion checks (with skilled assists from a torture droid, no less) suggests a very high Will stat and several ranks in the Dicipline skill and the Confidence Talent for Leia, while Han's piloting, gunnery, and blaster skills span a couple of potential careers.  The Special Edition (yes, I know) also ups his Negotiation/Charm resume a bit, successfully calming down an annoyed Hutt with no collateral but his reputation.  Overall, only Luke really seems new at all of this, and even he is enough of a skilled pilot that it's possible the GM just started everyone out at 150XP  (Obi-Wan is a mentor NPC and thus has stats are basically say 'sufficient for the task at hand up until his tragic death at the hands of the arc villain').

 

This is exactly why I said Luke was really the only "starting" character in that party. All of the other characters are established as having existing experience well before the movie started. Luke was the only one starting out "fresh from the farm", so to speak. 

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

All of the other characters are established as having existing experience well before the movie started.

That's just backstory.

[Tramp Graphics 2,328]

 

All of the other characters are established as having existing experience well before the movie started.

That's just backstory.

 

I disagree. They each also show themselves to be experienced as well, with more talents and skill than any starting character would have. Luke was the only one shown to really be a neophyte. 

[Benjan Meruna 797]

I think you're unnecessarily, and artificially, inflating the challenges in order to claim that the heroes aren't starting characters, when this is the very first story they're in. A bit of backstory and the ability to meet some of the challenges of of the first adventure doesn't even remotely suggest someone is a high-XP character. This sounds completely backwards to me.

 

Can you explain how you think I'm inflating the challenges?

 

I mean, at the VERY least, can you agree that holding your own in a lightsaber duel against the Dark Lord of the Sith is beyond a starting character's capabilities?

Edited January 17, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

Vader was a villain with stats appropriate for the heroes' first story arc. He was still way too powerful for Obi-Wan to beat this early in the campaign, but there's no reason to assume he had particularly extreme stats. All he had to do with his lightsaber was beat a starting character after a couple of rounds. And Han can give him a good wallopping in a vehicle battle. Don't confuse the hype around Vader with a need for high stats. Remember, he's a secondary villain in this story only. Tarkin is the main villain; Vader is his lapdog.
 

[EliasWindrider 2,714]

Vader was a villain with stats appropriate for the heroes' first story arc. He was still way too powerful for Obi-Wan to beat this early in the campaign, but there's no reason to assume he had particularly extreme stats. All he had to do with his lightsaber was beat a starting character after a couple of rounds. And Han can give him a good wallopping in a vehicle battle. Don't confuse the hype around Vader with a need for high stats. Remember, he's a secondary villain in this story only. Tarkin is the main villain; Vader is his lapdog.

 

Different strokes for different folks, I don't share your assessment, but if it works for you, more power to you.

[SEApocalypse 4,443]

It's not about "can they do it" it's that, "if I allow them to do it using Move, have I made a slew of other Powers and Talents functionally less significant if not irrelevant"?

Is it just a flavor of Enhance/Jump, or is it Move they're using in 8? In my game it's a flavored Enhance/Jump.

Jumping out of ships? Is it Move or is it the various Talents? In mine it's the Talents.

It's not about the act, it's about not invalidating other options. Move is already massively powerful enough.

Move is slow and requires checks which you can fail, it requires committing dice if you want to do it for a longer time too. . Force Jumps is another approach. Impossible fall at the other hand requires no action nor maneuver and is basically a life saver. Something very different than the two other option, which would need additional talents to get even close to that.

One of the key features of the system is that you can achieve similar effects in multiple ways. So having all 3 options seems fine to me.

[Benjan Meruna 797]

Vader was a villain with stats appropriate for the heroes' first story arc. He was still way too powerful for Obi-Wan to beat this early in the campaign, but there's no reason to assume he had particularly extreme stats. All he had to do with his lightsaber was beat a starting character after a couple of rounds. And Han can give him a good wallopping in a vehicle battle. Don't confuse the hype around Vader with a need for high stats. Remember, he's a secondary villain in this story only. Tarkin is the main villain; Vader is his lapdog.

 

 

He lifts a Rebel by the throat one-handed, then later chokes out a man from across the room.  He is explicitly mentioned as having hunted down the Jedi to near extinction.  It's pretty clear from the in-universe cues that Vader is not someone you want to mess around with.  If any player of mine had tried for a solo battle against a BBEG I'd laid out those clues about, they'd be rolling up a new character in moments.  There are some threats that PCs cannot hope to triumph against in open combat, and Darth Vader is one of those.  There is a reason his statline in FFG published material is : "This is how far he moves per round.  Any PC he catches dies."  

 

You're trying to twist the narrative to conform to your vision of what both the movies and the RPG should be, but neither fit the bill.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Benjan Meruna

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

No, I looking at the movie by itself and clear-eyed, instead of in the context of decades of expanded universe material and villain hype.