Anyone else sick of lifeboat flotillas?

[RogueCommander 236]

It's absolutely a trap!

It's a tactic to try to force a commander to dedicate resources elsewhere. Sorry?

That's not a trap... That's as you put it, a tactic.

Edit: a trap would be, say, hiding your fleet on the far side of a forest moon or something.

No one's saying don't do it, you're allowed to by the rules, just saying it's gamey and against all theme that exists in star wars. So when people call it out, don't be offended, if you are, then maybe it's because you subconsciously know it's cheesy.

You know, historically, Generals stopped leading from the front for a reason.

If I'm trying to split someone's forces, and I have an Admiral that has to stay alive for the benefit of the fleet (like an Ackbar fleet built around his ability), of course he gets held back. If it's an admiral like Dodonna, I don't care as much. Either way, I'm calculating risk, which is smart play.

Additionally, I'm not offended, I'm arguing it's not gamey. And I'm also arguing that the OP implying cowardice, rather than tactical judgement, as a motivating factor is douchey. And since, according to you, I've apparently claimed control of the word douchey, I must be right : )

As far as breaking immersion, up until recently, I would have assumed that the Millenium Falcon couldn't exit hyperspace inside a planets gravity well. If I can accept that ( barely*), surely you can accept that Ackbar might be hanging out on a GR75. I mean, maybe he was traveling incognito, on the sly, and got ambushed by an Imperial force?

* actually, that still irks me. Ok, if I can stay immersed after an A-Wing takes out an SSD...

Edited January 7, 2017 by RogueCommander

[RogueCommander 236]

This is amazing. Now psychoanalysis?

 

I guess you should be paying us to learn ya something right. But deep down you know it....

 

Ben!

No! I've Ben revealed.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

So why should the entire game be changed so about half the community is happy, while the other half is angry? Doing any of the changes suggested in this thread would alienate the people who like to play MSU lists. Multiple Small Units. That means no large ships, maybe 1 medium. Why should I have to put my commander on my most expensive ship making it a bigger target? Makes more sense to spread my points out so if I lose a ship, I can still come out with an 8-3 or 9-2.

 

When I go to play at a tournament, I go there to win. If you want thematic games, play at home with your friends where you agree on changing the rules. But forcing this stupid, selfish change will hurt the game.

 

Suck it up and deal with it.

[cynanbloodbane 3,435]

Everyone relax.

1. it is only one of many meta-shifts, that will come and go, much like the 2 ISD builds.

2. Be imaginative. There are plenty of thematic reasons why an Admiral would be aboard a crappy little Flotilla.

3. If you want Large base ships to take over the meta as flagships, build a list around that concept, then don't lose. The meta will shift.

4. Decimators will eat Flotillas, and Lambdas increase the threat range of all squadron activations. Running just got harder.

[Vykes 1,927]

Don't worry Undeadydude,

After all, I don't play you and my campaigns going juuuust fine, thanks

 

It's still gamey schlock no matter which way you try to dress it up, but it is what it is.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, doesn't mean that I don't do it for tournaments either (le gasp!).  The reason for it is purely gamey: I want to spread points around and not put all my eggs in one basket, no one ship will change the Tournament Point total, and thus I run lightly upgraded bomber heavy fleets and I think my worst defeat in a year was a 7-4.  That does work pretty well in tournaments, at least it has for me.  Yeah I'm being an instigator, but I'm missing a regional, waiting for a drink, and still think the idea of a flagship tugboat is a stupid idea even if it's effective.

[Ginkapo 9,320]

Love em.

Every flotilla means more defence token mitigation, h9s, sensor teams, intel officer.

And I do love a good nebulon b

[Beatty 1,730]

Too bad there wasn't an objective that gave you VP for eliminating the Flag Ship where you get the points for killing the Commander, like 40 to 50 points, instead of doubling the ship points. This would be an overall objective but it does make putting your Commander on a small ship a large VP risk.

But we don't have that Objective yet so we play with what we have. And if people played with the idea of hunting the Flag Ship down, which is not as hard as people make it seem, then it will vanish. Or just do it yourself and force your opponent who does it often to experience it too. There's no need to insult or argue over this and it will be used less as the game grows and flotillas are no longer the new thing. (Which it no longer is.) Then we can spend months complaining about the brokenness of Wave V and how it killed Armada!

[Undeadguy 5,749]

It's still gamey schlock no matter which way you try to dress it up, but it is what it is.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, doesn't mean that I don't do it for tournaments either (le gasp!).  The reason for it is purely gamey: I want to spread points around and not put all my eggs in one basket, no one ship will change the Tournament Point total, and thus I run lightly upgraded bomber heavy fleets and I think my worst defeat in a year was a 7-4.  That does work pretty well in tournaments, at least it has for me.  Yeah I'm being an instigator, but I'm missing a regional, waiting for a drink, and still think the idea of a flagship tugboat is a stupid idea even if it's effective.

At what point does something not become gamey?

 

I'd consider Dengar, Howlrunner and Tie/I gamey as hell. Seriously, counter 4?

 

What about Sato? I have a list with 2 CR90s, Salvation with Raymus, and Paragon with OE, all so I can throw black dice at long range. Is that not gamey? After all, I found a way to exploit the black dice limitation and abusing it. Ever reroll 4 black dice at long range? And then H9 the red into an Acc so I deal 6 damage and you can't Brace. The list is very effective. But it's easy to counter. Just kill all my squads. And yes, Sato is running on a flotilla pushing squad commands through 2 VCXs.

 

This is a game with defined mechanics. If you try hard enough, everything is gamey. Like Demo or Rhymerballs.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

The issue I'm seeing is people are feeling entitled to winning just because they killed every non-flotilla ship and can't chase down the flotilla that has been running away since round 1. You knew where it was going. Why didn't you kill it?

 

Really, count someone as tabled if you can't kill their flotilla? What garbage is that. 3 of the 4 flotillas can ******* deal damage. AKA kill your ISD that has 1 hull and no shields. You don't get to win until you kill every ship, so go chase the thing down. Invest some points into killing it.

[Vykes 1,927]

You may want to update your prescription if that's what you're seeing. Cheer up Undead, you'll know gamey when you see it (harhar).

 

Beatty's suggestion is one of the most interesting I've seen around, an inverse Capture the VIP. Now that I like.  I think I'll try that out some time.  Thanks mate

Edited January 7, 2017 by Vykes

[Beatty 1,730]

You may want to update your prescription if that's what you're seeing. Cheer up Undead, you'll know gamey when you see it (harhar).

Beatty's suggestion is one of the most interesting I've seen around, an inverse Capture the VIP. Now that I like. I think I'll try that out some time. Thanks mate

Well I was surprised it wasn't in with the new Objectives in CC and it just seemed like a smart way to address some issues the community are arguing about. But then again all the objectives were written before Wave IV so there was no issues at that point. Maybe the next supplement. (Mind you I don't think flotillas are an issue but the use of Life Boats has been over played because of its newness. And if it remains over played we will see something to bring it in. FFG is good that way.) Edited January 7, 2017 by Beatty

[Undeadguy 5,749]

You may want to update your prescription if that's what you're seeing. Cheer up Undead, you'll know gamey when you see it (harhar).

I'm not on any meds nor do I see any professional for any mental related illness. I'm actually surprised you of all people would stoop so low to allude to that.

 

Next time, attack the argument and not the person.

[Vykes 1,927]

Ophthalmological prescription my dear Undead, not pharmacological.  One gets prescriptions for lenses and glasses as well.  We would apologize for that misunderstanding -and not just because we are having fun with the royal 'We'- grievously we would.  And we would also say 'tell us not what to do, lest we do the opposite for spite's sake'. 

 

The argument has been attacked but the issue seems to fall into a camp of personal opinion, one aligned that the game allows it and thus is indisputable, and the other that the reasoning behind it is strictly in keeping with the game but fundamentally at odds with the aesthetic or sense of the setting in which the game is derived.  Basically, we're at loggerheads and neither is ultimately right or wrong.  why are you putting your admiral on a flotilla?  If the answer is, "because it's a detriment to the economies of force allocation to kill given the finite rounds in a match, and gives up up less points in a tournament setting", it's fundamentally playing the system.  

 

You know Beatty, now that you mention it that does seem like something that was a bit of a no-brainer.  Actually, the more I think of it, the more I'm surprised there wasn't a blanket bonus to VIP given for destroying a flagship in the initial ruleset (which would solve some of my issues, but not all of them.  I still don't fundamentally like the idea of a commander in a gozanti or a GR75.  If there's some other command and control small ship I'm unaware of, I might revise that.  As it is, they're cargo ships).  We've been getting double points for ships, half points for ships, etc for a while now, so why not get bonuses for the commander?  Even just for a 'Green objective' that seems like something, and I'm getting more and more perplexed that it's not part of the Red set as a counterpart to the VIP.   Aye, it's not that flotillas are bad but the lifeboat concept is a way to mostly safeguard a fleet's commander by squirming off away from the battle and running to the corners.  That bothers me. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Vykes

[Beatty 1,730]

Well also remember doing Tactics like running your Commander off into a corner is a Tactical choice but much like real life Commanders that do this it will leave a reputation in your local community. Doing it as a last resort to save points is one thing but running them off from turn one will earn you the reputation of a fearful Admiral and your local community could judge you for it. Just like spamming something (not as effective in Armada as other games.) might get you the win but your reputation takes a hit. There's winning the Game then there's winning for playing games. What's more important, "Winning" or having a "Fun" game for all?

I still don't see running your Commander off into a corner as a winning tactic in my opinion but more of a taunt in order to throw your opponent off.

[DeadPunker 7]

So why should the entire game be changed so about half the community is happy, while the other half is angry? Doing any of the changes suggested in this thread would alienate the people who like to play MSU lists. Multiple Small Units. That means no large ships, maybe 1 medium. Why should I have to put my commander on my most expensive ship making it a bigger target? Makes more sense to spread my points out so if I lose a ship, I can still come out with an 8-3 or 9-2.

 

When I go to play at a tournament, I go there to win. If you want thematic games, play at home with your friends where you agree on changing the rules. But forcing this stupid, selfish change will hurt the game.

 

Suck it up and deal with it.

Way to troll.  Star Wars Armada, for better or worst is a thematic game.  If it was not Star Wars themed, then next to one would play it.  

 

Also, forums are places for discussion, because people want to talk about the particular issue at hand.  Not be told they shouldn't discuss it because it would upset you.  On the other hand, should most/any of the rule suggestions actually be implemented into the game? No, but people would still like to discuss them.

[Onidsen 571]

 

 

If you want to see commanders on base 100+ point ships, there needs to be some kind of incentive other than "mah immersionz"

What if there was a Flagship upgrade card, large base ships only, add a fleet command slot to the ship?

As long as there is an upgrade that gives Rebels all the grav shift stuff, sure. Otherwise, I don't want to lose an asymmetric advantages just to satisfy your immersion needs.

 

 

Personally, I'd rather the CC-2200 or CC-7700 myself to give the Rebels grav-shift stuff.

[Vykes 1,927]

I'd love to agree, truly I would, Beatty mate, but the emphasis around here is still typically on whether or not you win rather than how you win.  But I do agree, I just wish there was more of a disincentive to do it, or an incentive to make a flagship something more suitable.  Sometimes I wonder if it's a wargaming thing that it, spamming, etc are seen as perfectly okay even if it doesn't make a lot of sense in other ways.  I'll readily admit that the tactic works surprisingly well with relay around, and if I wasn't doing anything else with it.  It's not all that much fun.  So, I committed to a CC fleet with Mothma on an RAF.  Is there a flotilla in the fleet as well?  Yes, yes there is. 

 

here's part of the problem, flagships typically are big first rate ships because they needed to be to fulfill that purpose (I'd link Wikipedia but then I'd be more of 'that guy').  They don't have to be the biggest ship in the fleet, but it's part of an assumption.  Modern fleets typically use frigates or other swift ships that have a lot of bits and bobs so the admiral doesn't have to break out the megaphone to shout orders at his fleet.  With a corvette, I can sorta see it begrudgingly... with a frigate that's perfectly okay, with a cruiser that's fine, with a battleship that's good.  But with a pair of cargo haulers that has 6 crew, few defenses, modest speed at best? It rubs me the wrong way because it doesn't make much sense. 

[NakedDex 2,611]

Way to troll.  Star Wars Armada, for better or worst is a thematic game.  If it was not Star Wars themed, then next to one would play it.  

 

Also, forums are places for discussion, because people want to talk about the particular issue at hand.  Not be told they shouldn't discuss it because it would upset you.  On the other hand, should most/any of the rule suggestions actually be implemented into the game? No, but people would still like to discuss them.

Disagree entirely. If a game is interesting and engaging, I'll play it, regardless of theme. Hell, if the theme is something I don't even like, I'll play it if there's enough complexity to keep me interested. I'm far from alone in this regard.

And I should know; I don't like Star Wars in the least. I hated TFA, Rogue One was disappointing in the extreme, and with the exception of ESB, I can't understand how the same story on repeat is so popular. That said, I have a substantial collection of both Armada and X-wing because they're well constructed, smart, engaging games. If they were Star Trek or WW2 ships, I wouldn't care (I'd arguably be happier). To insinuate the game is only played due to its licence is reductive and rather short sighted as a view of the community.

[Kristjan 218]

I discovered I value good game mechanics and balance over any other factors. Theme, awesome miniatures, variety and even a lifetime collection all become meaningless if the game is trash. R.I.P Warhammer Fantasy

[Vykes 1,927]

I'll openly admit I'm not the greatest Star Wars fan in the world, but if Armada wasn't Star Wars (or 40K, and even that's dubious right now) then I wouldn't have given it a second look as anything but a casual game that a friend's friend once brought over.  There are a few very distinct reasons why I'll give something my time, story and theme are big aspects of that.  If this was Armada: Babylon 5 Fleet Battles, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole no matter how good the mechanics were.  

 

I bought in because it was Star Wars, I stayed because it happens to also be exceptional.  Part of that is how it feels, so if the games don't feel like Star Wars, then I do get a sense of disappointment for it not conforming to a few expectations.  They aren't super high expectations: Rebel Fleets with fighters, and varied Rebel fleet compositions.  Imperials can get away with a lot more in my book: put a flight of Tie fighters on the table and a commander in a biggish warship and I'm happy (Biggish being GSD sized and above).

 

-sighs- Kristjan... I know the feeling there. 2,000+ models are not getting rebased... nope. I resent what they did, but not mechanically... all fluff there. Although I hated the mechanical change, too. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Vykes

[Warlord Zepnick 324]

I play on vassal and there is a healthy mix of people who use lifeboats and people who use other ships as their flagships. It really depends on your fleet composition. I run a demo with an ISD and two flotillas to push a fighter screen, and I always put motti on my ISD. It takes the longest to kill so why wouldn't I?

On the other hand there are mon mothma fleets which want to take advantage of evade. Guess what has an evade? A flotilla.

[DeadPunker 7]

 

Way to troll.  Star Wars Armada, for better or worst is a thematic game.  If it was not Star Wars themed, then next to one would play it.  

 

Also, forums are places for discussion, because people want to talk about the particular issue at hand.  Not be told they shouldn't discuss it because it would upset you.  On the other hand, should most/any of the rule suggestions actually be implemented into the game? No, but people would still like to discuss them.

Disagree entirely. If a game is interesting and engaging, I'll play it, regardless of theme. Hell, if the theme is something I don't even like, I'll play it if there's enough complexity to keep me interested. I'm far from alone in this regard.

And I should know; I don't like Star Wars in the least. I hated TFA, Rogue One was disappointing in the extreme, and with the exception of ESB, I can't understand how the same story on repeat is so popular. That said, I have a substantial collection of both Armada and X-wing because they're well constructed, smart, engaging games. If they were Star Trek or WW2 ships, I wouldn't care (I'd arguably be happier). To insinuate the game is only played due to its licence is reductive and rather short sighted as a view of the community.

 

Yes, but Star War Armada does have a Star Wars theme.  The Star Wars theme does initially attract many, not all, players to game.  However, theme should not always trump other consideration, but theme is one of the considerations.

[FourDogsInaHorseSuit 1,486]

If you want to see commanders on base 100+ point ships, there needs to be some kind of incentive other than "mah immersionz"

What if there was a Flagship upgrade card, large base ships only, add a fleet command slot to the ship?

As long as there is an upgrade that gives Rebels all the grav shift stuff, sure. Otherwise, I don't want to lose an asymmetric advantages just to satisfy your immersion needs.

If card art is any indication, you soon will.

Which art?

Entrapment formation is all star destroyers.

[RogueCommander 236]

If you want to see commanders on base 100+ point ships, there needs to be some kind of incentive other than "mah immersionz"

What if there was a Flagship upgrade card, large base ships only, add a fleet command slot to the ship?

As long as there is an upgrade that gives Rebels all the grav shift stuff, sure. Otherwise, I don't want to lose an asymmetric advantages just to satisfy your immersion needs.

If card art is any indication, you soon will.

Which art?

Entrapment formation is all star destroyers.

Curious. I suppose we'll see.

And, now that I think of it, it may be more that it is a buff.to bring some parity between the fleets? Not so much as an asymmetric balance to Grav Well, but more about balance?

EF to balance Ozzel

Raise shields to balance ... interdoctor?

All fighter to balance the sluggish rebels as compared to the general Imp speed?

I mean, what would Imperials really gain with Fleet Command that they don't already have?

[Onidsen 571]

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to see commanders on base 100+ point ships, there needs to be some kind of incentive other than "mah immersionz"

What if there was a Flagship upgrade card, large base ships only, add a fleet command slot to the ship?

As long as there is an upgrade that gives Rebels all the grav shift stuff, sure. Otherwise, I don't want to lose an asymmetric advantages just to satisfy your immersion needs.

If card art is any indication, you soon will.

Which art?

Entrapment formation is all star destroyers.

Curious. I suppose we'll see.

And, now that I think of it, it may be more that it is a buff.to bring some parity between the fleets? Not so much as an asymmetric balance to Grav Well, but more about balance?

EF to balance Ozzel

Raise shields to balance ... interdoctor?

All fighter to balance the sluggish rebels as compared to the general Imp speed?

I mean, what would Imperials really gain with Fleet Command that they don't already have?

 

 

Depends on if a new fleet command card comes out for Concentrate Fire.