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cnemmick

Skirmish Fixes For Older Deployments

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I think the best way to get more people interested in Skirmish is to update figures from the Core box and earlier A&V waves/Expansions. I don't expect one should be able to make a Top-16 At Regionals competitive list, but at least one that can hold it's own when playing at your local store/tourneys.

 

Some folks think the solution is to reduce point costs. A few weeks ago was a really good survey over on reddit that identified overcost cards and potential adjustments to cost. That post inspired me to go in a direction similar to ThatJakeGuy in his Homebrew Characters thread: rebuilding overcost cards to make them worth their cost in the Skirmish game.

Edit: February 7th, 2019:

It's been nearly a year and a half of working on these skirmish fixes, and I think we're getting closer to having some real decent changes. Since this was first posted, I've expanded the ways you can interact with the fixes:

Skirmish Fixes Google Doc -- Comments and suggestions welcome!

Skirmish Fixes Card Images -- Print them out and test them with your buddies! 

Skirmish Fixes Playtest Questionnaire -- If you do play with them, please fill out this short survey with your experience! 

Edited by cnemmick
Changing topic to fit new design goals of document

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We've had this discussion numerous times, I don't think anyone disagrees as to the discrepancy, but this isn't the way FFG does things, they will fix it or addend the game until they feel the problems are resolved, but there isn't going to be a blanket re-release of cards (they've already done alt art cards for half of these figures anyway) with altered point costs or updated abilities.

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Price reductions are the lazy way out, I think. I much prefer buffing units to be worth the price you pay.

Agreed. It's much better to just make a unit worthwhile instead of just cheaper. Cheaper just makes it easier to jam in with other stuff, it doesn't really fix some issues with the card (looking directly at Biv here)

Skimming through the document I really like giving diala mobile. You could also leave her attack pool alone if you gave her 10 health. She gets enough staying power then with shattering blow to be dangerous especially late game with her recover 2.

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With Rancor and Bantha, AT-ST (Cost: 14) and General Weiss (Cost: 16) should be reduced by 2-4 points.

I'm okay with reducing costs for figures that cost 10 points or higher. But I did want to take a stab at making them worth that point value. Giving the AT-ST & General Weiss a secondary special action attack really increases its usefulness.

With the latest update, I'm actually feeling better on how I modified Boba Fett and Han Solo.

Agreed. It's much better to just make a unit worthwhile instead of just cheaper. Cheaper just makes it easier to jam in with other stuff, it doesn't really fix some issues with the card (looking directly at Biv here)

Skimming through the document I really like giving diala mobile. You could also leave her attack pool alone if you gave her 10 health. She gets enough staying power then with shattering blow to be dangerous especially late game with her recover 2.

In an earlier version of my doc, I had her attack pool the same and made Shattering Blow much easier to use (suffer 2 strain after the attack). But even then, I wasn't thrilled with her damage output. I ran some numbers using the IA Calculator:

Diala, red-green, w/ Shattering Blow (no defense dice): 53% chance of doing at least 4 DMG, 17% of doing at least 5 DMG.

Diala, red-green with SURGE for +2 DMG, w/ Shattering Blow (no defense dice): 58% chance of doing at least 5 DMG, 19% of doing at least 6 DMG.

Obi-Wan, red-yellow-green, vs black: 72% chance of doing at least 5 DMG, 43% of doing at least 6 DMG.

Obi-Wan, red-yellow-green, vs white: 58% chance of doing at least 5 DMG, 35% of doing at least 6 DMG.

Davith, green-yellow, not Hidden, vs black: 56% chance of doing at least 5 DMG, 21% of doing at least 6 DMG.

Davith, green-yellow, not Hidden, vs white: 67% chance of doing at least 4 DMG, 43% of doing at least 5 DMG.

That convinced me that Diala needed to be a three-dice attack for cost 7.

Edit: Fixed my math because my dumbness forgot Diala was red-green, not red-yellow.

Edited by cnemmick

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We've had this discussion numerous times, I don't think anyone disagrees as to the discrepancy, but this isn't the way FFG does things, they will fix it or addend the game until they feel the problems are resolved, but there isn't going to be a blanket re-release of cards (they've already done alt art cards for half of these figures anyway) with altered point costs or updated abilities.

However FFG wants to fix it is fine by me. My document really wasn't made as something FFG should or shouldn't do. I shared the doc here to get IA players' input.

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 My play group has discussed this some and even done a little playtesting. We took an idea mentioned in several previous threads on this topic and baselined our changes around the Elite Stormtrooper figure in terms of cost/value efficiency.

 

Here is the idea we had for Mak:

 

Design Decisions

Priority Target is a nice "always on" ability that applies to every attack with no additional requirements. This is an advantage over the Squad Training ability of the baseline which applies to every attack with the addition of an adjacency requirement. The applied benefit of the Squad Training ability is arguably more valuable, so we will call these abilities even.

 

Critical Hit is an occasional ability enacted by a surge with an additional effect applied when a hostile figure is defeated. Rolling blue/blue rarely generates more than one surge so more often than not this ability is not applied. Also the value of Pierce 2 is lessened by the introduction of Zillo Technique.  Blue/blue also does not hit hard enough to kill most targets so the additional benefit almost never comes into play. The baseline occasional ability Last Stand is more reliable and the end effect is much greater.

 

Add the Sniper Craft ability. Allow Mak to be the sniper he was designed to be. Tap into the Hidden condition which grants an additional surge and protective benefits at a cost of half his movement. This ability hopefully brings Mak's overall abilities even with the baseline.

 

Baseline Cost Adjustments

·         -1 Single Figure

·         -1 lower Health

·         -1 lower dmg surge

·         -1 lower acc surge

·         +1 for base 1 Evade

·         +1 Surge: Weaken

·         +1 add yellow attack dice

·         +1 add Sniper Craft ability

 

[TLDR] - skip to here!

 

mak_redesign.png

 

I should also say I really like both of your ideas (adding Hunter trait and Comms Relay ability), but I don't feel like those two things alone are enough to make Mak a competitive option.

Edited by leacher

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 My play group has discussed this some and even done a little playtesting. We took an idea mentioned in several previous threads on this topic and baselined our changes around the Elite Stormtrooper figure in terms of cost/value efficiency.

 

Here is the idea we had for Mak:

 

Wow, that's a huge rework! I appreciate the work you guys have done to make Mak more like the bad-ass sniper he is in the campaign.

 

It seems like to me that y'all's Mighty Mak would have a very polarizing effect on skirmishes: Your opponent ignores him completely, since he's only worth 3VP OR your opponent gets him dead quickly by round 2. Did you find in your testing that your Mighty Mak tilted too much positive for the player using him (undercosted)?

 

 

 

I should also say I really like both of your ideas (adding Hunter trait and Comms Relay ability), but I don't feel like those two things alone are enough to make Mak a competitive option.

 

My goal was to make Mak (and Loku Kanoloa) both hybrid support characters. Right now, they are pretty much unplayable since the benefit of Focusing from Gideon & C3P0 is so valuable to any Rebel/Scum list. With the addition of Alliance Rangers, Mak & Loku are pushed even further out of reach.

 

My idea w/ Mak & Loku was to give them support abilities that might pair up well with the new Alliance Rangers or any other Hunters. Mak would be Spy-type support first & a sniper second.  Loku would be more of a damage-dealer than a support. 

 

I'll take another stab at Mak & Loku because I think you're right - even with my modifications, they're still not good options. I do want them to be valuable without providing way too much value for their costs - which is hard to balance since they can technically attack AND support, unlike how most of us play C3P0 and Gideon.

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It seems like to me that y'all's Mighty Mak would have a very polarizing effect on skirmishes: Your opponent ignores him completely, since he's only worth 3VP OR your opponent gets him dead quickly by round 2. Did you find in your testing that your Mighty Mak tilted too much positive for the player using him (undercosted)?

 

Our first question when playtesting is always are the changes overpowered? In several of the test games we played with "Mighty Mak" he was effective/useful if he could find a good spot to camp and use the Sniper Craft action on his first attack. The built-in surge from Hidden allows him to bank on the +2 accuracy for future attacks and extend his range a bit without sacrificing his other bonuses. That plus the added yellow attack dice allows him to hit about as hard as a regular HK, but we found +1 dmg and +2 pierce are usually not enough to mitigate a low damage attack roll. The HKs have the reroll ability, but Mak has no such luck. Also you still have to be very conservative with Mighty Mak, as pretty much every figure on the board with the exception of the Junk Droid can one-shot him. The built-in evade is for the most part pretty useless. Mak's only prayer of survival is the x-man. Removing the evade and adding the Hunter trait might be a better move.

 

Overall I think all of that is pretty justified for figure that only costs 3 points and he has turned out to be one of the better "modified" characters that we have play tested. If anyone tries him out, please post your experience/feedback. 

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Great work. I still think the over 10 cost models are not worth it, even though what you did makes sense and seems rather good.

FFG should reprint the crap models cards, but they likely won't because a) they pose no problem for the tournament meta, and b) it's not worth the money for them.

Sucks, but alas. Luckily I only play IA for fun, so I will probably come up with some house rules for myself and my friends.

I like the document though.

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Since I doubt FFG will release new/updated deployment cards for these older, overpriced figures, I hope that they will release powerful new command cards for them. That would be a relatively easy way to bring their power more on level with their cost. For example, give Darth Vader a new command card that lets him perform multiple attacks per activation. That, when coupled with his previous command card, could be devastating in the right circumstances, and would be reminiscent of the final scene from Rogue One.

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Since I doubt FFG will release new/updated deployment cards for these older, overpriced figures, I hope that they will release powerful new command cards for them. That would be a relatively easy way to bring their power more on level with their cost. For example, give Darth Vader a new command card that lets him perform multiple attacks per activation. That, when coupled with his previous command card, could be devastating in the right circumstances, and would be reminiscent of the final scene from Rogue One.

 

I really don't understand why they wouldn't, or won't.  Many figures now have campaign and skirmish versions.  I don't understand why they just won't create skirmish versions of them.  Maybe they are waiting a little longer to make sure they are viable.  

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Is there a way we can all get together and sign a petition to speed things up at FFG?

I'm sure we could, but it would have little effect. IA has a long turnaround from conception to release of cards. This is a great thing, as, aside from wave 1, there have been no insanely OP releases. X-Wing could learn a lesson from IA and its long playtest period, as the current state of the metagame shows. Imperial assault has reached eight waves, and the game is better than ever. Waves 7.5 and 8 broke X-Wing, and it has never truly recovered.

I am willing to wait as long as it takes for the IA crew to put out the fixes for the underpowered cards of waves 1 and 2, as that will mean they will be properly play tested and not break the game.

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Is there a way we can all get together and sign a petition to speed things up at FFG?

I'm sure the current designers have some sort of plan to errata existing overcosted cards. Given what is teased in the next wave, I'm willing to trust that they're implementing their plans in the time frame necessary. But I definitely would like the fixes soon, so that the entry-level into skirmish is reduced to the Core box and some A&V packs.

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20 minutes ago, cnemmick said:

I saw this on an IA Skirmish Facebook Group. If this is real, it is FANTASTIC! And very close to my IG-88 rework. It's cool that I was in the ballpark of what the designers actually used!

It's real: see 

 

Edited by nickv2002

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I think your Somos and Sorin changes don't change a thing, they're still terrible.

 

 

We have a phrase called "Somos Syndrome", its when your an overpriced character with terrible surges.

Compare Somos to Leia for cost and utility. Personally i think Leia is super broken, at the very least her military efficiency should be 2 surge cost. (Side track)

 

SOMOS

Somos NEEDs a point reduction. But staying with your theme of "don't reduce points".

Assumming advance comms is an auto include (more on that in a second); I agree, he doesn't need to buff troopers anymore than he does.

Honestly i think advanced comms should be built into his card at no cost and NOT take up an attachment slot.

Where Somos needs help for his points cost is his surges and defense. Look at ObiWan, Leigh, Luke, Shyla, Bossk etc. They all have innate defense.

If shyla is at 8pts and 12hp and can pull in targets from 3 range. Somos should probably at least have +1SurgeEvade and (maybe......... +1block)

Even though advanced comms exists..... it shouldn't. It makes his rules over complicated because it all should be innate in his card and he should still be able to take another attachment.

 

So in summary, without doing any play testing i'm thinking for your "no points reduction"

Surges- His surges change from +1dmg to +2Dmg, Pierce 1 to Pierce 2.

Abilities -  replace adjacent with "friendly troopers within 3 spaces". This should also change on his command card.

Innate Defense: +1 surge block (perhaps also +1 block should be looked at if no points drop; depending on play testing and comparison to Luke, Leia, Shyla, Obiwan, Bossk, Verena Talos, Han, Jyn,)

Comparing him to those other characters i still believe i'm being conservative. He probably should get all the stuff suggested above and be 9 pts.

SORIN

Sorin is no use with jet troopers. Sorins weakness has always been that he has to be close (formerly adjacent) to the figures he's buffing; his other weakness is that he dies really easily. His not a frontline commander and should be at the back. A jet trooper had to be within 2 spaces to be effective. So therefore if somos helps one jet trooper, he likely will die. Therefore, the pairing is useless.

Advanced comms, should literally be Advanced Comms. It should change the "within 2 spaces" to "within line of sight".

So i think either, advanced comms gets changes to "line of sight" or on sorins card and command cards it, replace adjacent with "Line of Sight".

 

 

Edited by Asvaldr

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The problem with re doing these cards in the new blisters is that it forces people from the core to buy all the blisters right off the bat. So if you want to grab the core and try it out, you need to also pick up 1-4ish (just ball parking how many characters will be fixed) blisters as well. Again, this is going against the whole 'grab a core box and check it out!' mentality.

So I REALLY hope that FFG starts throwing those cards in the new core box. Although from a sales stand point I highly doubt they will. 

I was talking about this with a friend who has been thinking of plunging into IA, but hates that he can't use his favorite character in skirmish, Han Solo. I said well they just fixed IG-88 so Han might be soon, and he got really excited, until I told him the distribution will be through the new blister packs and again he started laughing and said "Of course they did." I really had no defense for this action.

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I don't know it's a tough one. Distributing these cards through blisters isn't optimal but then distributing them through Tournament packs isn't much better for those that don't have access to regular tournaments in their area or when a particular tournament pack is no longer available or has already passed and they missed it. Packing them into new core boxes doesn't help those that already have the core or the current expansions. The ability to order them online would be best. If they came out with a correction pack that you can order direct from FFG or even purchase from your FLGS that would probably be best for all involved really. IMO

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Sorry I was implying both, throw it in the new blister pack for those of us who already have the core, and throw it in the core for those who will buy it.

It just seems so stupid that you would buy a core that comes with a guy like IG-88 but not be able to use him on a competitive level in skirmish unless you buy a... jawa pack? How random.

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