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Question about a Force Power used by Vader ***Rogue One Spoilers***

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I have a question for a force Power I want my campaigns with inquisitor to have. At the end of Rogue one where earth Vader stops the blaster bolt mid air with the force and throws it back at the rebel. I would argue that he was using force move to target the blaster bolt and return to sender. Others would argue he was using Reflect talent or Bind, just skimmed that way. Could it be argued he used force move? Think about it. The bolt is silhouette 0 and he catches it midair. Then he makes a ranged (light) check to throw it back doing 5 damage due to its size, however since it's a blaster bolt, the 5 is added to the base damage of the weapon it was fired from. Your thoughts?

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I would argue that was Vader using Improved Reflect in a narrative way. Move is not the right power for that.

Protect would be the Force Power suitable for such a feat. By this system only Light Side characters can send the damage back at the attacker, but Vader is special and there are plenty of pre written NPCS that have unique abilities

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I agree. I have an NPC that uses reflect without a weapon as well. If questioned I intend to remind players he is a master and veteran of the Jedi Civil War and the failed Jedi kindergarten.

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I would argue that was Vader using Improved Reflect in a narrative way. Move is not the right power for that.

Protect would be the Force Power suitable for such a feat. By this system only Light Side characters can send the damage back at the attacker, but Vader is special and there are plenty of pre written NPCS that have unique abilities

Granted, we do see Vader blocking (but not re-directing) blaster fire with his gloved hand in ESB, but I agree that bouncing the bolt back is more easily handled mechanically by the Improved Reflect talent.  After all, in that R1 sequence, Vader did have a lightsaber ignited and in hand, so he meets the pre-reqs to use Improved Reflect.

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Protect is what I'd call here but improved reflect is as good a description as any.

It could also be narrative use of move but since move isn't a reactive ability like protect and improved reflect are.

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Was there  a discussion of Kylo Ren's similar force use in Force Awakens?  I am curious about that one because it could of been a destiny point + improve reflect if we use Donovan's interpretation.

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Was there  a discussion of Kylo Ren's similar force use in Force Awakens?  I am curious about that one because it could of been a destiny point + improve reflect if we use Donovan's interpretation.

I think the general consensus was that Kylo simply used Bind, and his stopping the blaster bolt in midair was a narrative use of a Triumph on his Discipline check (because you know Poe was PC, and thus entitled to resist) to make this new villain look really cool.  Poe probably never actually made an actual attack roll against Kylo before he got subjected to Bind, and then opted not to suffer strain (may well have been close to his strain threshold by that point) in order to take his action.

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Thanks for all the replies! I agree that it's improved reflect in a narrative way. The threats generated by said rebel could be a result of his fear check. I'm just trying to think of a mechanical way to explain my inquisitor's power. Thanks for all the replies again!

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I would just wave the system imposed limitation that protect is limited to light side users.

 

Its an unnecessary mechanical artifice. I see no reason Vader shouldn't be able to use it. 

It isn't.  Dark Siders can use Protect, but only on themselves, and they can't use the Mastery Upgrade for Protect.  If you let Dark Siders use Protect Mastery, you should allow Light Siders to use Unleash Mastery (which is exactly how I would be tempted to the Dark Side).

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Vader does not know Protect he's simply using reflect and Improved reflect with his armored gauntlets.

What makes you say that? The power Vader used against Han's blaster bolt in ESB was definitely Protect. In fact, it was the very basis for that power when first introduced way back in the WEG D6 days. 

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I gotta be honest... some people say they saw it in the film, some say that's not what it was and it was just a lot of red stuff coming at Vader and getting reflected by the saber.  Are we SURE this happened?  I've had folks on the lookout for it as well as me and I can't pick it up.

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I gotta be honest... some people say they saw it in the film, some say that's not what it was and it was just a lot of red stuff coming at Vader and getting reflected by the saber.  Are we SURE this happened?  I've had folks on the lookout for it as well as me and I can't pick it up.

 

Han draws his blaster and fires, Vader raises his hand and the blasts clear hit his palm before he yanks the blaster away from Han.  Vader's saber is also clearly on his belt the whole time.  So I'm really not sure what you're asking.  You could maybe make the argument that Vader's bionic gloves are blaster resistant and that stopped the blaster bolts.  But it's pretty clear that the blasts struck his palm.

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I gotta be honest... some people say they saw it in the film, some say that's not what it was and it was just a lot of red stuff coming at Vader and getting reflected by the saber.  Are we SURE this happened?  I've had folks on the lookout for it as well as me and I can't pick it up.

 

Han draws his blaster and fires, Vader raises his hand and the blasts clear hit his palm before he yanks the blaster away from Han.  Vader's saber is also clearly on his belt the whole time.  So I'm really not sure what you're asking.  You could maybe make the argument that Vader's bionic gloves are blaster resistant and that stopped the blaster bolts.  But it's pretty clear that the blasts struck his palm.

I think he was referring to the Rogue One bit.

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I think he was referring to the Rogue One bit.

 

Oh... my bad!  Well in that case, I recall seeing something that looked like Vader freezing a bolt mid-air and tossing it back at the enemy.  However, I've only seen the movie once, and a lot was going on in that particular scene, so I could be mistaken.  I'd probably need to wait for it's release so I can view it a few times paying closer attention to what may or may not have happened.

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Vader does not know Protect he's simply using reflect and Improved reflect with his armored gauntlets.

What makes you say that? The power Vader used against Han's blaster bolt in ESB was definitely Protect. In fact, it was the very basis for that power when first introduced way back in the WEG D6 days. 

 

If he is using protect which would completely stop the blaster bolts why are his hands smoking?

He is blocking them with his armored gloves. Its basically Reflect.

Also if he could use protect then he would also be able to use Unleash which we know he can't do.

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Vader does not know Protect he's simply using reflect and Improved reflect with his armored gauntlets.

What makes you say that? The power Vader used against Han's blaster bolt in ESB was definitely Protect. In fact, it was the very basis for that power when first introduced way back in the WEG D6 days. 

 

If he is using protect which would completely stop the blaster bolts why are his hands smoking?

He is blocking them with his armored gloves. Its basically Reflect.

Also if he could use protect then he would also be able to use Unleash which we know he can't do.

 

because protect absorbed the shot when it hit the glove not before. 

And how do we know he can't use unleash? maybe he doesn't like it so he prefers not to use it. 

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With Vader not using Force Lightning, the reason given in Legends (not sure if it's carried over to the current canon) was that it'd fry the electrical systems of his life-support armor... very much like what happened when Palp's blasts of Force Lightning coursed into Vader in RotJ.

 

For ESB, Vader may very well have used Protect, having set it up ahead of time (such as just before Han enters) knowing that Solo would quite likely shoot as fast as possible at the most threatening target in the room.  So, he activates Protect as a precaution, and when Han takes the top spot in the initiative order, Vader's able to absorb the shot, and then use the next NPC slot to pull Han's blaster away with trivial ease.

 

As for the Rogue One scene (watched some low-quality clips on YouTube a while back, though most of them now seem to be gone), I think the only times Vader outstreched his hand was just before he used Move to either yank weapons away from the Rebels, or toss them about like toys.  Otherwise, he was using Reflect to parry blaster fire with his lightsaber.  There was one angle where a blaster shot looked like it could have been a shot that didn't actually hit Vader but instead hit the corridor wall.  Again, the clips were low-quality so they're probably not the best reference, but they're what was available.

 

The "using Protect as a reaction" bit is most certainly there for Yoda's countering Sith Lightning with his bare hands.  I know that technically Reflect wouldn't cover stopping Unleash (since the power is a Discipline ranged attack), but seeing as how Kenobi and Windu were able to parry Sith Lightning with their lightsabers (Windu even being able to redirect it back), as a GM I'd be cool with making a house rule to enable Reflect to work vs. Unleash, or even to be used against items thrown by the Move power.

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With Vader not using Force Lightning, the reason given in Legends (not sure if it's carried over to the current canon) was that it'd fry the electrical systems of his life-support armor... very much like what happened when Palp's blasts of Force Lightning coursed into Vader in RotJ.

I knew that explanation, but since Disney (and Lucas before them) doesn't seem to care for anything that's now legends, I would be very careful in saying what a character can or can't do. The explanation makes sense, but so did the gravity wells for hyperspace jumps.....before JJ ruined everything. 

 

I agree with everything else.

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In the WotC Star Wars d20 system there was a force feat called Dissipate Energy. It was usable by the light or dark side and you could basically make a fort save as a reaction and absorb the energy from things like blaster bolts or force lightening to take no damage. So Yoda and Mace's absorption of the force lightening and Vader's absorption of Han's blaster fire was essentially the same power. I don't think there's a direct translation in the FFG system but what people have suggested here work well enough I think.

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With Vader not using Force Lightning, the reason given in Legends (not sure if it's carried over to the current canon) was that it'd fry the electrical systems of his life-support armor... very much like what happened when Palp's blasts of Force Lightning coursed into Vader in RotJ.

I knew that explanation, but since Disney (and Lucas before them) doesn't seem to care for anything that's now legends, I would be very careful in saying what a character can or can't do. The explanation makes sense, but so did the gravity wells for hyperspace jumps.....before JJ ruined everything. 

 

I agree with everything else.

 

 

My apologies for going off topic a little, but I have to say, it looked a lot like Cassius jumped from inside the gravity well on Jedha.

 

As to how JJ messed with hyperspace... yeah, kinda annoying.

At the same time, am I mistaken in remembering when anyone gave a technical reason for gravity well issues in Legends it was because of computer safeties? Can anyone think of any sources to look at besides the Thrawn trilogy and the Yuzzah Vong series?

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Yeah the reason is or was that gravity well can lead to collisions in hyperspace. The  most logical assumption is that there are safeties to  automatically revert to realspace, and avoid jumping from inside a gravity well, but they probably can be disabled. So what we see in TFA and then R1 is probably possibile but crazy dangerous, and that's why we see it only twice in 8 movies. I can accept this explantion, but we still have to see if they start doing this kind of hyperjumps commonly or not in next films. Since JJ isn't  directing anymore i hope there will be more respect for the star wars universe science and for plot consistency.

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As for hyperspace and gravity wells...

 

That was more something that WEG made up to account for the " why didn't they just jump to hyperspace right away?" in ANH when the Falcon was fleeing Tatooine, when really it was probably a case of Han not having the coordinates to jump to Alderaan plotted and loaded into the ship's navicomputer.  Remember that they did have to take off in an awful hurry, and I doubt there's much in the way of a common route to go from Tatooine (galactic backwater) to Alderaan (notable core world).  Luke dropped out of hyperspace well outside of Dagobah's atmosphere/gravity well because it was a completely foreign planet that he knew zilch about.  Other authors pretty much took WEG's answer and ran with it.

 

But in the new films, it does sound like jumping into or out of hyperspace from within a planet's atmosphere is a very risky proposition, and I think there was an episode in season of The Clone Wars were a Republic warship had to do an atmospheric jump to hyperspace that wound up causing all sorts of issues for the ship.  So it sounds like the heroes of the movies have either been very lucky (Rogue One crew) or really good (Han Solo in TFA) when trying that particular stunt.

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