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Jonny WS

The Secret Garden

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In the tomb of ice expansion, there are a few dungeon cards for the Road to Legend campaign.  Great, i liked seeing this.

However, for those of you who own both of these expansions, I am sure you have come across Dungeon 42, The Secret Garden.  In mine, and my fellow players opinions, it is THE hardest level we have ever seen. 

Not only is the leader a souped up master shade with a bonus to everything including UNDYING, but ALL the trees in the map force the heroes to lose 2 wounds upon entering the space, and then ending their turn.  What makes the map SUPER hard and annoying, is the fact that the OL player can place crushing blocks and pit traps to make things even more restricted. 

I am going to have to errata this map, to either make ALL figures suffer the penalty, or not force the heroes to end their turn. 

 

Has anyone else had problems with this level? 

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We played this level during our last session. It was a blood bath for the heroes. I have Gold Eldritch so I loaded the maze with 6 Shades (so two master Shades with pierce 5 each). This was the second level in the silver legendary dungeon so the heroes wanted to finish it. Throw in that Evil Genius was in play and later Trapmaster, ouch. The final conquest count was OL 45, Heroes 5. And it could have been worse if I had not made a small mistake by leaving a path to the glyph in the maze one turn. They were able to run to the glyph and activate it, thus providing a close reentry point when they died (over and over again).

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Jonny WS said:

In the tomb of ice expansion, there are a few dungeon cards for the Road to Legend campaign.  Great, i liked seeing this.

However, for those of you who own both of these expansions, I am sure you have come across Dungeon 42, The Secret Garden.  In mine, and my fellow players opinions, it is THE hardest level we have ever seen. 

Not only is the leader a souped up master shade with a bonus to everything including UNDYING, but ALL the trees in the map force the heroes to lose 2 wounds upon entering the space, and then ending their turn.  What makes the map SUPER hard and annoying, is the fact that the OL player can place crushing blocks and pit traps to make things even more restricted. 

I am going to have to errata this map, to either make ALL figures suffer the penalty, or not force the heroes to end their turn. 

 

Has anyone else had problems with this level? 

It is the toughest level out there, yes. But some level has to be.

Things that really help the heroes on this level...
Acrobat (ignore the trees)
Spiritwalker (Mage fights at full effect behind meat shields in the trees)
Items that prevent unpreventable damage (Ghost Armour, Skull Shield, etc) (place a guard order before moving into the trees and keep it)
Leadership (Heroes already in the trees can get a guard order)
Fly (Zyla or Wings of Regoroth) (ignore the trees)
Quick Casting and Rapid Fire also help if Spiritwalker, Leadership of Ghost Armour etc are available.

Things that really help the OL...
Crushing Blocks
Green corrupted Glyph (2 Treachery)

You don't have to errata the map. It should be up to your heroes to conquer the challenge. They do always (except in the OLs keep) have the option to flee...

We've fought this level three times now. The first was without Acrobat/Fly but with Leadership/Spiritwalker/Quick Casting. Eldritch were only bronze and Beasts were Gold. The heroes suffered badly, mostly because of the green corrupted glyph that meant every time they died they had to return way back at the start of the level and take 2 run actions just to get back near the action. They also couldn't glyph back to town for healing etc.
The second time Eldritch were Silver/Gold and Humanoids were Gold/Diamond. There was no corrupted glyph. As heroes, I had Okaluk with Acrobat, Silhouette with Rapid Fire and Ghost Armour, Landrec with Spiritwalker and Quickcasting and Karnon with Leadership. If the Boss Shade hadn't passed his first undying roll I would've cleared the level without loss! As it was, I'd extended badly to get that opportunity and I think lost Karnon and Silhouette over the next few turns after the Boss Shade ran away and hid in the corner. As it was the final level we came out even.
The third time I can't really remember, but it was the same hero party as the first time but well buffed in mid-late gold and they cleared through the level in no time, except for the boss Shade which made undying twice IIRC.

 

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Trees are obstacles for the purposes of Crushing Block.  You can't crushing block someone into a tree and you can't play crushing block next to a tree, severely restricting crushing block in that level.

EDIT:

FAQ, page 12:
Q: Do the props "Sarcophagus", "Table", "Bed",
"Fountain", "Throne", "Bone Heap", "Giant Mushrooms",
"Tree" and "Ice" count as obstacles (for the effects of
Acrobat and others)?
A: Yes.

 

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faq page 11:

Q: Which map items count as obstacles for the Crushing Block trap card?
A: Crushing Block may never be played in a space adjacent to any token (or built-in map element) that blocks movement. The reason for this is to prevent the Overlord from sealing a hallway completely and preventing the heroes from ever progressing. This is a list of all relevant obstacles, current through the Road to Legend: Boulder, Crushing Wall, Rubble, Water. (Villagers are figures, not map elements.

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Jonny WS said:

Has anyone else had problems with this level? 

When it came up for us, it was definitely daunting.  The heroes had to move slow and careful (quite the opposite of what they're used to) and the levelt ook much longer than average to finish, but finish they did.  I wouldn't say it's broken, it's just a challenge.

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I have seen this map 3 times in 2 different campaigns.  The first time, it was the second level of a rumor, and we spent so much time trying to kill the boss that the overlord cycled his deck once, and got far into his deck again.  Evil Genius was annoying.   By the time we saw the rumor level, we had to flee because the OL cycled his deck twice.  I don't want to go into how far ahead in conquest the OL was after that :(

The second time, we were better equipped and were able to tag the glyph...but again had to flee because of crushing blocks and the OL's deck being shuffled.  Im not looking forward to seeing this map in the OL's keep. :(

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Turric4n said:

faq page 11:

Q: Which map items count as obstacles for the Crushing Block trap card?
A: Crushing Block may never be played in a space adjacent to any token (or built-in map element) that blocks movement. The reason for this is to prevent the Overlord from sealing a hallway completely and preventing the heroes from ever progressing. This is a list of all relevant obstacles, current through the Road to Legend: Boulder, Crushing Wall, Rubble, Water. (Villagers are figures, not map elements.

That ruling is older than the one I quoted, thus being overridden by the newer ruling.  Additionally, it goes against the rules in the original books for no apparent reason, so it's invalidated by older rules as well.

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The two quotes are not in conflict, so there's no need for one to override the other. Page 11 changes the way the Crushing Block card operates and explains exactly which props cannot have a CB played next to them. Page 12 tells you which props count as obstacles, without mention of CB at all.

As it's the FAQ + Errata file, I don't see how any changes it makes can be invalidated by old rules. If it were just a FAQ, sure. But when it's called errata, you have to assume that anything it states which contradicts an old rule is in fact a valid change.

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James McMurray said:

The two quotes are not in conflict, so there's no need for one to override the other. Page 11 changes the way the Crushing Block card operates and explains exactly which props cannot have a CB played next to them. Page 12 tells you which props count as obstacles, without mention of CB at all.

As it's the FAQ + Errata file, I don't see how any changes it makes can be invalidated by old rules. If it were just a FAQ, sure. But when it's called errata, you have to assume that anything it states which contradicts an old rule is in fact a valid change.

 

+1
Since it is in the most recent FAQ, it can't exactly be classed as 'older' anyway. Both are 'current'.

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I really have to disagree here, for several reasons. 

  1. Crushing Block says that the Rubble token cannot be placed next to obstacles.  That language has not been changed by errata: the question on page 11 merely attempted to interpret what the word "obstacles" might mean at the time of Road to Legend's release.
  2. The FAQ question about "which map items count as obstacles for the Crushing Block trap card" was asked when Road to Legend came out.  The answer lists "relevant obstacles current through Road to Legend".  In other words, that answer is not current as of the release of Tomb of Ice.
  3. Furthermore, if only the props listed as "block movement: yes" count as "obstacles" for Crushing Block, it's completely legal to Crushing Block heroes into bottomless insta-kill pits and other damaging props, which is a significant change in the way the rules worked until Road to Legend.  Additionally, it's not even fair, since it lets the overlord kill the heroes quite easily on several maps with a single card even if the trap misses.
  4. The FAQ question listing the actual "obstacles" was asked after Tomb of Ice came out.  It lists props that count as obstacles for "Acrobat and others".  Others, in this case, includes Crushing Block.

Honestly, the page 11 answer is, for me, not even relevant. The answer uses language that implies that the rules have not changed at all while still changing the rules significantly, and I really have trouble accepting an erratum that makes the game worse for no apparent reason.  When I drafted the question again (Including the Tomb of Ice props), I made specifically sure to list all objects that could count as "obstacle"-type props since the printing of Road to Legend and the discarding of the "obstacle" nomenclature.

Granted, I seem to have developed a kind of irrational, emotional reaction to this issue, so I'm biased towards assuming that the original rules from Journeys in the Dark are correct and that this "new" terrain system that doesn't contain the keywords to match the old card set is something to be ignored.  However, I'm almost afraid to ask for clarification at this point because of the seemingly crazy answers we've gotten in return--Repeated Re-Clarification of Large Monster movement and the severely reduced list of obstacles are two such examples.

 

If you go by the answer on page 11, then there's two classes of "obstacle" props: obstacles for the purposes of trap cards and obstacles for the purposes of movement.  We already have 2 different definitions of empty (one for traps and one for movement) so such a split would not be unprecedented, but split obstacle definitions did not exist in the original rules and adds further complexity to the game without good reason.  I think that's as rational as I can be on the subject.

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then ask for an official statement. for me its currently not playable adjacent to movement blocking things. so in your oppinion i cant play a cb next to a tree? that makes no sense (not that rocks falling from the skys would make any sense). in the optional quest aerie peak i can throw heroes out by CB´ing them.. its a freekill if they go near the edge. nothing is preventing it. not even your "newer" list of obstacles. 

 

page 12 says obstacles are this and this.

page 11 says explicitly what an obstacle is regarding a CB. (every prop marker that blocks movement. this contains everything from unreleased expansions to classic descent)

 

i cannot see a contradiction here.

 

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Thundercles said:

If you go by the answer on page 11, then there's two classes of "obstacle" props: obstacles for the purposes of trap cards and obstacles for the purposes of movement.  We already have 2 different definitions of empty (one for traps and one for movement) so such a split would not be unprecedented, but split obstacle definitions did not exist in the original rules and adds further complexity to the game without good reason.  I think that's as rational as I can be on the subject.

Incorrect. There is one set of props known as obstacles. There is a subset of those that Crushing Block has been errataed to not be allowed near, and a handy list for people who don't want to look up all of the props.

You are of course free to house rule it however you want, but the errata is clear and non-contradictory.

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Jonny WS said:

I have seen this map 3 times in 2 different campaigns.  The first time, it was the second level of a rumor, and we spent so much time trying to kill the boss that the overlord cycled his deck once, and got far into his deck again.  Evil Genius was annoying.   By the time we saw the rumor level, we had to flee because the OL cycled his deck twice.  I don't want to go into how far ahead in conquest the OL was after that :(

I believe (and I may be mistaken about this) that the rule abotu the OL cycling his deck is per level, not per dungeon.  As in, when you move through the portal to the next level of the dungeon, the OL must now cycle his deck twice again.

In the interest of not having to count how many cards are left in the deck each time a new level starts, we count "cycling" as "reaching the bottom and reshuffling."  So the OL needs to hit the bottom twice in a single level, not to reach the same spot he started at twice.  If a level begins with like 3 cards in the OL deck, I'm generally prepared to call it a freebie for the heroes, not that the issue has ever come up thus far.

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James McMurray said:

You are of course free to house rule it however you want, but the errata is clear and non-contradictory.

I concur.  The one ruling defines what props are considered "obstacles."  The other ruling defines what obstacles are considered "obstacles that block movement" for the purposes of the Crushing Block errata.  The latter is a subset of the former, but the two rulings are not contradicting one another.

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Hmmm, I am not too sure if its a whole dungeon or just one level of it...Both the FAQ and SoB rules are a little vague. 

FAQ:

The Overlord's Deck
If the Overlord cycles through his deck twice in the same dungeon level, the heroes are ejected from the dungeon and are forced to flee it. Note that the Overlord's Keep is not subject to this rule.

SoB rules:

Running Out of Time
If the heroes take too long while exploring a dungeon, they may
run out of time and be forced to flee. If the overlord ever
depletes his Overlord deck twice on the same level (receiving
three conquest tokens each time), the heroes are immediately
expelled from the dungeon as though they had fled the dungeon.

I am curious how other people play it. 

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Its not vague if you take into account the previous ruling that it was three times for the entire dungeon (it was not written as dungeon level, just dungeon) its pretty clear it means just one of the three levels to a dungeon.

In the rulebook, a dungeon is never referred to as a dungeon level, it is always just a dungeon or dungeon location.  The only time the phrase dungeon level is used is to refer to a single level inside a dungeon location. So twice through on the same level of a dungeon causes the heroes to be ejected.

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Steve-O said:

James McMurray said:

You are of course free to house rule it however you want, but the errata is clear and non-contradictory.

 

I concur.  The one ruling defines what props are considered "obstacles."  The other ruling defines what obstacles are considered "obstacles that block movement" for the purposes of the Crushing Block errata.  The latter is a subset of the former, but the two rulings are not contradicting one another.

I concede the point.

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I guess that's what I get for over-reading the rules...lol  And so you know, I have been playing it correctly.  I had forgotten about the previous rule of three times cycling. 

Anyways, back on topic...

This level is STUPID hard...lol It gets my vote for being the most difficult in the game.

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Jonny WS said:

This level is STUPID hard...lol It gets my vote for being the most difficult in the game.

As was said before, some level has to be the hardest.

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It's not written anywhere now. It was in one of the previous versions of the FAQ, but they have since rescinded that and made it be 2x on a single level.

-shnar

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