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kelpie

New way to solve chase

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I pointed out several times in this forum (and outside it, too, but you don't know it  :D ) that working around mutual distances on space-planetary chase is a "pain in the rear thruster"

also, while rolling for planetary or space pilot, speed is factored for the difficulties so having faster ship is mostly worse than slower one!

 

i thought about a simple way to solve chase:

- a chase start with both sides at several "units" of distance, let say 10 units. This would be roughly long range

- both sides roll for pilot roll

- a successfull roll for escaping ones add ship's speed to the units, while a success for chasing one is removed from units

- when a chased ship goes too far (ie 20 units) is gone; when a chasing ship goes too close (ie 2 unit or less) is at close range

- when ship start shooting, there is no more chase: both sides has to spend time to hit and avoid being hitten, and chased one need to go over chasing's cannons range before start fleeing again

 

what do you think?

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When making competitive checks for chases you don't roll against the "speed plus half silhouette"-formula; that's for regular terrain difficulty. During a space chase, for example, the base difficulty would be Simple. So having a faster ship is not a handicap, quite the contrary.

 

Other than that, to me at least your rules seem to be more complicated, not less so. I've found that the chase rules solve any number of problems that might otherwise arise from having such narrative vehicle movement rules, so I'm very happy with them.

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Ah, Kelpie.  Sounds like you've been studying astronomical distances, vectors, and maybe even some history.

 

For which I think you've got a pretty dramatic model. 

 

However, I'm not familiar with the SWRPG chase rules, so I should go study up on that.  But FFG has done great work so far on dealing with keeping the pacing of the story going and avoiding getting bogged down with details.

 

In reality, most space set chases are going to be really really boring and though your model may be accurate, it may drag out the action into the realm of tedium.

 

A close relevant analogy would be chases using ships during the Age of Sails.  Most of those chases took days and even weeks.  :unsure:   Something you definitely don't want to role play.

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Gotta agree with the general consensus here, it really seems to overcomplicate things.  I do use the "terrain difficulty" rule in chases if the situation warrants it, but I have a simple solution to counter the increased difficulty.  When in a chase, if your check is successful, add successes equal to your speed.  Boom.  If you're in simple terrain (such as open space or out in a flat desert), pure speed will almost always win over piloting skill.  If you're zooming through crowded city streets or a dense asteroid field, speed becomes a liability, but can still pay off if you have the skill to handle it.

   For what it's worth, I still allow the pilots to take actions and maneuvers on their turns, but do not allow the Fly/Drive action.  Not 100% sure how this jives with the Core Rules, but I know Jewel of Yavin said that the competitive check used the Action of the pilot in the race halfway through the adventure.  I want my characters doing more things, thank you very much.  

   If all you're trying to do is fly through the asteroid field, go ahead and spend your Action on an Astrogation check to remove some setback dice from your next Piloting roll.  The TIE fighters chasing you can do the same, but if they're in Close range, they'll probably spend their Action trying to shoot you down.  If you're a slick pilot and have a good copilot, you can crank the speed and have your buddy Copilot to downgrade the difficulty.  With any luck, the TIE minions will be going fast to keep up, and every time they roll a Despair, one of them crashes into an asteroid and is eliminated.
  And that is how you escape from an Imperial patrol without firing a shot.

Edited by The Grand Falloon

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I don't like the chase rules as written, because speed is generally a detriment.  As written, you make your pilot check, adjusted for terrain and speed per p. 240, meaning your roll is much more difficult if you go faster.  Then range is adjusted based on who rolls more successes.  

 

A TIE at speed 5 would roll 3P2R difficulty (5 for speed, 2 upgrades for sil).

A YT1300 at speed 1 would roll 1P1R (2 for sil, 1 upgrade for speed).  

Assuming equal skill, the YT1300 will almost always roll better than the TIE, leading to the YT1300 extending range every round, despite flying significantly slower. 

Admittedly, if the TIE beats the YT1300 it will close by 2 range categories per round, but the increased difficulty for speed far outweighs that benefit.  In that case, if I were the TIE, I would slow to speed 2, and maintain speed not more than 1 higher than my target. 

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So why would you think just because something can go faster it should?  A Ferrari can undoubtedly go faster than your average cop car, on a track.  Not in Manhattan in the middle of a weekday.  If you drive/fly like a maniac somewhere dangerous you should have bad things happen to you.  Speed is a detriment in a lot of cases.

 

You're also forgetting those 3 Boost dice the TIE gets and the 1 Setback the YT-1300 gets for Handling.

Edited by 2P51

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So why would you think just because something can go faster it should?  A Ferrari can undoubtedly go faster than your average cop car, on a track.  Not in Manhattan in the middle of a weekday.  If you drive/fly like a maniac somewhere dangerous you should have bad things happen to you.  Speed is a detriment in a lot of cases.

 

You're also forgetting those 3 Boost dice the TIE gets and the 1 Setback the YT-1300 gets for Handling.

This ^  

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Ok, so make it 2 TIE chasing each other, but at diffferent speeds.  The slow TIE will continue to outrun the fast TIE.

 

The point of the piloting check is it shows the difficulty of having to move at high speeds through difficult terrain. In those cases, the careful pilot probably would catch the one who is constantly having to adjust for flying at absurd speeds through dangerous areas.

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But, if one was supremely skilled enough, then their reckless flying would get them a further distance then a careful pilot and often characters are forced into siutations where they have to take risks.

Consider setting "checkpoints", with each movement getting a ship so much distance along a route with A being the starting position and B being the destination. A faster pilot will travel much further along those movement regions (thus their faster speed pays off) but a slower pilot might be more consistent. Be to careful however, and the careful driver may never catch his prey, even if he succeeds with more checks overall. Truly skilled pilots can best those odds. It's risk vs reward, unskilled pilots or especially hazardious situations might really weigh the odds against them

The penalty is if the targets are in so many range bands or checkpoints within one another, they can attack.

Edited by Lordbiscuit

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Ok, so make it 2 TIE chasing each other, but at diffferent speeds.  The slow TIE will continue to outrun the fast TIE.

 

The point of the piloting check is it shows the difficulty of having to move at high speeds through difficult terrain. In those cases, the careful pilot probably would catch the one who is constantly having to adjust for flying at absurd speeds through dangerous areas.

 

I know the bulk of the police chases I've watched the idiot being chased is typically flooring it and they usually end the same way.  The aforementioned idiot spins out into the shoulder, rolls their car, and/or runs into something/someone else and it's over.  That's what's represented by a vehicle driving/flying too fast for conditions.

 

Anyone who grew up where it snows is aware, you rush and drive too fast in a snow storm and you're not going to get anywhere faster.  That's precisely what is represented by the increased difficulty for the driver/pilot driving too fast for the conditions.  

 

There's nothing wrong with the rules, they work mechanically and they mirror real life conditions imo.

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I think those are 2 different problems

higher speed (and also silohuette) is detrimental to avoid ostacles, so the pilot check difficulties for terrain difficulties are a good rules 'cause faster you go, more skilled you should be to avoid collision, damage, problems, or getting lost. That's good: if you are low skilled, you should slow down, or end up bad

 

Different problem is a chase. In a chase if you are faster, you can better escape or catching the opponent. If you are slower, you should be a better driver, and slower you go, better you should be.

The Grand Falloon's idea is good, but if you need to roll number of success equal to speed, the higher one has more difficult.

 

A good quick and fast idea could be an opposite Pilot roll, and if you roll success less or equal than speed differencies (or higher than difference if you are slower) you escape. Or you catch your opponent. For long chase, you can divide it on several "checkpoint".

If you running on difficult terrain, you need to add some setback dice, or get some upgrade, or like...

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The Grand Falloon's idea is good, but if you need to roll number of success equal to speed, the higher one has more difficult.

Er, not what I'm saying.  When in a chase, you make your roll as usual, accounting for terrain.  If it's wide open, it's Simple, if it's tight, do the whole (Speed plus Size plus Terrain) thing.  If successful, you add your Speed to the number of successes you rolled.  This is really just to determine whether the chased extends his lead or if the chaser closes the distance.  So if I'm flying my Speed 3 YT-1300 away from a swarm of Speed 5 TIEs, I need to beat them by 3 successes to extend my lead.  Gonna be tough, especially since they get 3 Boost dice, while I suffer a Setback.

And yes, it can still seem a little wonky, no matter how good of a pilot I am, to leave them in the dust when they're so much faster than me, and the field is wide open. But, you know, there it is.

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The Grand Falloon's idea is good, but if you need to roll number of success equal to speed, the higher one has more difficult.

Er, not what I'm saying.  When in a chase, you make your roll as usual, accounting for terrain.  If it's wide open, it's Simple, if it's tight, do the whole (Speed plus Size plus Terrain) thing.  If successful, you add your Speed to the number of successes you rolled.  This is really just to determine whether the chased extends his lead or if the chaser closes the distance.  So if I'm flying my Speed 3 YT-1300 away from a swarm of Speed 5 TIEs, I need to beat them by 3 successes to extend my lead.  Gonna be tough, especially since they get 3 Boost dice, while I suffer a Setback.

And yes, it can still seem a little wonky, no matter how good of a pilot I am, to leave them in the dust when they're so much faster than me, and the field is wide open. But, you know, there it is.

 

You know, this is actually a pretty good idea. I don't feel any urgent need to change the chase rules myself, but if I did this is how I'd do it.

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The Grand Falloon's idea is good, but if you need to roll number of success equal to speed, the higher one has more difficult.

Er, not what I'm saying.  When in a chase, you make your roll as usual, accounting for terrain.  If it's wide open, it's Simple, if it's tight, do the whole (Speed plus Size plus Terrain) thing.  If successful, you add your Speed to the number of successes you rolled.  This is really just to determine whether the chased extends his lead or if the chaser closes the distance.  So if I'm flying my Speed 3 YT-1300 away from a swarm of Speed 5 TIEs, I need to beat them by 3 successes to extend my lead.  Gonna be tough, especially since they get 3 Boost dice, while I suffer a Setback.

And yes, it can still seem a little wonky, no matter how good of a pilot I am, to leave them in the dust when they're so much faster than me, and the field is wide open. But, you know, there it is.

 

I really like this approach.  To assume the 2 TIE, one at speed 1, one at speed 5, both pilots rolling 3Y1G3B skill + handling, the 1st vs 1P1R, the second at 3P2R.

 

Assume both roll identical good dice of 5 Success, 3 Advantages.

Assume TIE speed 1 rolls 1 Fail, 1 disadvantage (net 4 success, 2 advantage)

Assume TIE speed 5 rolls 4 Fail , 3 disadvantage (net 1 success, 0 advantage)

 

The fast TIE still extends range due to 1 success, +4 speed difference (net 5 successes vs 4 successes).

 

Now if the fast TIE rolled 1 more failure or 1 less success (likely), the slow TIE closes the gap while he fishtails around some debris.

 

Compare to RAW, where both pilots succeed, but the slow pilot catches up since he rolled more successes.

 

It greatly encourages a good pilot to push the speed envelope.  And prevents a weak pilot from catching up by flying slow.

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Er, not what I'm saying.  When in a chase, you make your roll as usual, accounting for terrain.  If it's wide open, it's Simple, if it's tight, do the whole (Speed plus Size plus Terrain) thing.  If successful, you add your Speed to the number of successes you rolled.  This is really just to determine whether the chased extends his lead or if the chaser closes the distance.  So if I'm flying my Speed 3 YT-1300 away from a swarm of Speed 5 TIEs, I need to beat them by 3 successes to extend my lead.  Gonna be tough, especially since they get 3 Boost dice, while I suffer a Setback.

And yes, it can still seem a little wonky, no matter how good of a pilot I am, to leave them in the dust when they're so much faster than me, and the field is wide open. But, you know, there it is.

 

Oh that seems good!! thanks!!

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The problem with not using chase rules in ship combat you get in the Gamer trap of.

 

1. Enemy used move to get into range and fires

2. PC fires all their weapons and then move

3. Repeat

 

A faster ship is only hindered when there is terrain to bother with.

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The problem with not using chase rules in ship combat you get in the Gamer trap of.

 

1. Enemy used move to get into range and fires

2. PC fires all their weapons and then move

3. Repeat

 

A faster ship is only hindered when there is terrain to bother with.

I don't think you can use the Fly/Drive maneuver if you're in a chase.  I certainly wouldn't allow it; it would be rolled into the Piloting checks that occur each round.  I would certainly allow the chasee to say, "I want to lead them into the asteroid field," and spend a maneuver to do so, but he wouldn't move a range band away form his pursuers.

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The problem with not using chase rules in ship combat you get in the Gamer trap of.

 

1. Enemy used move to get into range and fires

2. PC fires all their weapons and then move

3. Repeat

 

A faster ship is only hindered when there is terrain to bother with.

I don't think you can use the Fly/Drive maneuver if you're in a chase.  I certainly wouldn't allow it; it would be rolled into the Piloting checks that occur each round.  I would certainly allow the chasee to say, "I want to lead them into the asteroid field," and spend a maneuver to do so, but he wouldn't move a range band away form his pursuers.

 

 

you are correct, the above example i used assumes you are NOT in a chase

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