Missed opportunities

[MenaceNsobriety 568]

So in a recent regional I attended there was a mindlink squad that had a ship hit a debris and get a stress. The player didn't assign stress to the rest of his ships and the opponent did not catch it. About a full turn later the players realized their mistake and called a judge. The judge had them rewind the game back to when the ship hit the debris. They undid multiple moves and attacks in the process. This was an incorrect ruling right. Shouldn't you play the game as it is once the opportunity is that far past?

[Parravon 5,216]

I would say so. There is usually a point of no return with missed opportunities, and in this case I think was too far past the point. If it was caught before any movement had been made, then the rewind could have been made with no real drama. But after moves and attacks have been resolved, is way too late.

 

Bad call by the judge on that one.

[FireSpy 327]

I would say so. There is usually a point of no return with missed opportunities, and in this case I think was too far past the point. If it was caught before any movement had been made, then the rewind could have been made with no real drama. But after moves and attacks have been resolved, is way too late.

 

Bad call by the judge on that one.

 

I agree, except that I would (usually) want the stress token added when the mistake is noticed, however once the ships have executed maneuvers in the following turn, it's probably too late for even that.

 

Players are expected to follow the game’s rules, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

 

If the players can't agree if the stress should be added retroactively or not, then they should call a TO to decide.

[namdoolb 276]

That is a difficult one to tackle.

 

If the player had forgotten to hand out focus tokens to his other ships via mindlink I'd say "oops, missed opportunity"

But we're not talking about an opportunity here. Player A gained an advantage because he failed to assign stress to ships that should have received stress.

Which raises the question; is player B expected to mind all of Player A's triggers and remind him/her of any that were missed?

 

I can appreciate why what was done, was done. Rewinding almost a full turn in x-wing though is not a small task. There has to reach a point where rolling back the game state is not viable and you just have to repair it as best you can & move forwards. When it comes to that decision, case by case is really the only way to do it: If the players/Judge are willing and able to rewind the game state then by all means they should, especially for a tournament with something important on the line.

[MenaceNsobriety 568]

One of the mindlink players ships did a K-turn the following round so assigning the stress from the debris would have made that illegal as well. It ended up REALLY hurting the mindlink squad because he dodged 2 dengar attacks only to have those attacks erased.

[Parravon 5,216]

This is another case of using an upgrade that affects multiple ships and players really need to be super observant for those triggers.

[WWHSD 9,273]

That is a difficult one to tackle.

 

If the player had forgotten to hand out focus tokens to his other ships via mindlink I'd say "oops, missed opportunity"

But we're not talking about an opportunity here. Player A gained an advantage because he failed to assign stress to ships that should have received stress.

Which raises the question; is player B expected to mind all of Player A's triggers and remind him/her of any that were missed?

 

For optional effects: No

For mandatory effects: Yes

It is the responsiblitlity of both players to maintain the proper game state.

[StevenO 2,996]

It is a missed opportunity but a nasty and vicious one that probably should be rewound or retroactively applied as best as possible.  Considering how massive this overlook was it probably is in both players best interest to rewind.

 

I am a firm believer that it is BOTH sides responsibility to make sure triggers are noted.  That's doubly so when they are mandatory effects and exponentially more important when they affect multiple ships with a lasting effect.

 

Considering this "missed opportunity" was a huge boon to the player who missed it something needs to be done about it.  This is steps beyond forgetting to take a Stress token because you happened to shoot at the opponent's Rebel Captive.  Maybe this sounds harsh but if the game can't be rewound or a suitable penalty imposed here I actually believe the person who made this massive blunder should concede the game.

[WWHSD 9,273]

 

I am a firm believer that it is BOTH sides responsibility to make sure triggers are noted.  That's doubly so when they are mandatory effects and exponentially more important when they affect multiple ships with a lasting effect.

 

The tournament regulations back up that opinion. 

 

Tournament Regulations, pg. 12:

"It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and

to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged."

[StevenO 2,996]

 

 

I am a firm believer that it is BOTH sides responsibility to make sure triggers are noted.  That's doubly so when they are mandatory effects and exponentially more important when they affect multiple ships with a lasting effect.

 

The tournament regulations back up that opinion. 

 

Tournament Regulations, pg. 12:

"It is all players’ responsibility to maintain a proper game state, and

to ensure that all mandatory abilities and game steps are acknowledged."

 

 

Although it seems most don't back it up to the level I would recommend.  If something is triggered it should be acknowledged even if it is not used for some reason; the Advanced Cloaking Device is a potential example as is an ability like Fel's.

[irishthump 29]

I actually admire the judge for having the judge for having the cajones to tackle the problem the way he did! From my understanding of tournament regulations a judge effectively has carte blanche when it comes situations like this but will often be reluctant to use such power for fear criticism from players or indeed on forums such as these.

 

Personally, I think it was the right call. In the vast majority of cases a missed opportunity results in a disadvantage to the player who was remiss in applying game effects. However in this case that player gained a huge advantage in not having his ships stressed which also would have had a knock on effect on his choice of maneuvers  in subsequent turns.

[Icelom 3,385]

Its not a missed opportunity its a mandatory effect that was missed.

 

I think the judge did the correct thing, to just ignore it would have been a huge mistake.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus 877]

I'd have added the stress at the point that the mistake was caught. Rewinding, especially in a time-sensitive game and especially once play has progressed significantly, is awkward, difficult, and risky and takes a significant amount of time.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Bad call by the judge on that one.

 

I don't know I agree with that.  But either way the Judge can make that call, the judge can do pretty much anything he or she wants to.  So the point the OP seemed to be making isn't correct.

[nigeltastic 3,808]

It's a tough situation but rewinding attacks and moves made is pretty rough too. If a ship was destroyed how easily can it be replaced etc. I think it would depend on the specifics but I'd warn both players to properly maintain game state and then resume play as normal.

Worth noting missing stress and missing focus is equally incorrect. While focus is a good thing and stress is a bad thing typically, neither are optional so you should treat them as equal situations. If you wouldn't rewind for focus you shouldn't rewind for stress and vice versa.

[StevenO 2,996]

...

Worth noting missing stress and missing focus is equally incorrect. While focus is a good thing and stress is a bad thing typically, neither are optional so you should treat them as equal situations. If you wouldn't rewind for focus you shouldn't rewind for stress and vice versa.

 

Both are equally incorrect but they aren't close to equal in effect.  

 

Start with the general Focus = good/Stress = bad and think about who seems to suffer more of the pressure to remember effects; while it should be/is both players job to notice stuff many seem to think it is the responsibility of the controller to remember his effects and when he doesn't and they are bad then who really loses?  Next look at how durable the tokens are; you get a Focus token you may or may not use it before the end of the turn at which time it usually goes away but a Stress token is generally something that sticks around and can have a detrimental effect in several different ways.  Putting these together the effect of forgetting to place Stress is much greater than forgetting to place Focus as generally the use of a Focus token is options, beneficial, and ENDS at the end of that round while Stress effects are Mandatory, detrimental, and ongoing as Stress doesn't magically disappear at the end of a round.

 

Forgetting each is equally wrong but the effect of each is not equal.  To put it another way I think most people would say that taking $10,000 from someone would be wrong but if I say it happens to two people and one only has $30,000 to start with and the other has $10,000,000 you may not look at those two the same way.  One had 33% taken while the other had 0.1% taken so although the same amount was taken from each who is going to be impacted the most?  You could also turn it around and instead of taking $10k both could be gaining $10k so one sees a huge boon as one gets a 33% boost and the other hardly notices.

[nigeltastic 3,808]

Nothing you've said should matter to a judge ruling on a situation. Mandatory effects (such as passing stress or focus via mindlink) are mandatory regardless of who they benefit. If you vary your enforcement by which player it benefits you are showing nothing but bias and are unfit for judging. Both stress and focus tokens are beneficial for one player and detrimental for their opponent. It does not matter which player benefits and which one does not, a judge must apply rulings equally in all cases as is their duty as the rules arbitrator.

If you are going to roll backwards for missing a mandatory token being passed by mindlink you must roll backwards for all mandatory tokens regardless of what type they are.

[StevenO 2,996]

If nothing I'm saying would matter then you'd better believe I'm going to become extremely "forgetful" when it comes to laying out the Stress tokens with the Mindlink in play.  You miss the opportunity to "remind" me of my error then I guess there's nothing that should be done about it later.

 

If you want enforcement to be the same then I guess the enforcement should be for the most damaging crime.  Backing up seems to me to be the nicest punishment that could be made unless you want to advocate for just dropping a Stress token on each ship here and now which should have had one to begin with.

 

If you call a Judge then a Judge should also have some room when it comes to making rulings.  While the "crime" may be the same the details of the crime may call for a wide range of punishments.  Killing someone is bad; so should everyone who does such a thing suffer the same penalty regardless of the circumstances?  This is what you are advocating for when you say skipping the additional Focus tokens with the Mindlink is the same as skipping the Stress tokens with the Mindlink.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If you are going to roll backwards for missing a mandatory token being passed by mindlink you must roll backwards for all mandatory tokens regardless of what type they are.

 

I personally think rewinding like the judge did in this case is bad.  But missing a stress token is going to have a bigger impact on the game then missing a focus token would.

 

The biggest impact a focus token is going to have is how much damage is done.  That's relatively easy to account for vs a stress token.  If the dice rolls are remembered you can adjust the damage totals accordingly.

 

A stress token on the other hand is going to impact actions, maneuvers and possibly damage done.  So accounting for it may require rewinding the game state where you don't need to do the same for a focus or evade token.  But again I think it's better to give a warning about forgetting mandatory effects and let the game play on from that point, because it's going to be very hard to accurately rewind the game.

[Parravon 5,216]

A missed focus token is only likely to hamper you during your Combat phase and only in one round, and then any unused tokens are removed. Whereas a missed stress token allows a ship to perform actions and red manoeuvres that would otherwise have been prohibited, and if they aren't removed, they'll stick around and be a pain in the neck for another round.

Stress tokens have a far bigger impact on the game than focus tokens. Would or should a judge rewind an entire round for missed focus tokens the way this one did for missed stress tokens? I would say if the same incident occurred again, but for focus tokens, the judge should at the very least, be consistent and rewind the round. 

 

Although I still think that was the wrong call and the game had progressed too far. But at the end of the day, if both players were happy with the judge's decision, then that's fine. If the judge made a call that one player felt was completely and utterly wrong, then there's going to be a problem.

 

The judge does indeed have the last say on any issue, and the player must accept it, but whatever the judge does, he must be impartial and consistent.

[Vitalis 1,012]

It's a tough situation but rewinding attacks and moves made is pretty rough too. If a ship was destroyed how easily can it be replaced etc. I think it would depend on the specifics but I'd warn both players to properly maintain game state and then resume play as normal.

Worth noting missing stress and missing focus is equally incorrect. While focus is a good thing and stress is a bad thing typically, neither are optional so you should treat them as equal situations. If you wouldn't rewind for focus you shouldn't rewind for stress and vice versa.

Missed focus is missed opportunity - that's covered in rules.

Missed stress is missed mandatory effect - that's not covered in rules and is way more rellevant.

[Juunon 88]

 

Although I still think that was the wrong call and the game had progressed too far. But at the end of the day, if both players were happy with the judge's decision, then that's fine. If the judge made a call that one player felt was completely and utterly wrong, then there's going to be a problem.

 

So Parravon, allow me to ask then (and I mean no disrespect in doing so, but I'm curious how I would be expected to call this when I'm judging my next event) - if we assume that the game has progressed far enough that a complete rewind is a bad call, then what would be the right call at this point?

 

If I were the opposing player to the player who just largely benefited from this mistake, I'd feel pretty cheated if the judge just said "well, let's just put a stress token on the ships that should have been stressed" full knowing that red maneuvers had been executed illegally and that the current state should now be completely different.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If I were the opposing player to the player who just largely benefited from this mistake, I'd feel pretty cheated if the judge just said "well, let's just put a stress token on the ships that should have been stressed" full knowing that red maneuvers had been executed illegally and that the current state should now be completely different.

 

To be quite frank, it's as much your fault the stress was missed as the other guy.  

 

The question to rewind has to be based on how fairly can the gamestate be set back to prior to the mistake?  If you've had ships that have moved and especially dice rolled, then it's fairly unlikely you can fairly rewind the game.

 

There is simply too great a margin for error in that case, to actually return the game to a correct game state. 

 

So yes one person gets a break, but both sides are at fault and there's no truly fair way to resolve it, short of correcting what you can and letting the game proceed. It becomes a matter of what will do the least harm.

Edited December 29, 2016 by VanorDM

[StevenO 2,996]

 

If I were the opposing player to the player who just largely benefited from this mistake, I'd feel pretty cheated if the judge just said "well, let's just put a stress token on the ships that should have been stressed" full knowing that red maneuvers had been executed illegally and that the current state should now be completely different.

 

To be quite frank, it's as much your fault the stress was missed as the other guy.  

 

The question to rewind has to be based on how fairly can the gamestate be set back to prior to the mistake?  If you've had ships that have moved and especially dice rolled, then it's fairly unlikely you can fairly rewind the game.

 

There is simply too great a margin for error in that case, to actually return the game to a correct game state. 

 

So yes one person gets a break, but both sides are at fault and there's no truly fair way to resolve it, short of correcting what you can and letting the game proceed. It becomes a matter of what will do the least harm.

 

 

Maybe it is as much your fault as it is the guy who made, and importantly benefited, from the mistake but we've both been here long enough to know how well that flies.  This will go back to the good old "you failed to take a Stress token when your ship shot at my  ship with Rebel Captive on in," where the party that "forgot" to take the Stress puts all of the blame on the other person because "it's YOUR **** upgrade so you should have made sure to TELL me to take the Stress token.  How the **** am I supposed to remember what all of your **** does while keeping track of my own effect?"  People easily let that slide because it the effects owner that is "forgetting" to penalize his opponent.  What is so wrong in this example is that it can be the owner forgetting to penalize himself.

 

If you weren't doing a roll-back I can see a mass Stress dump as being a possible solution.  If a focus was missed you can easily say it was assigned but not used and then discarded during the end step.  Giving the Stress when the error was realized may have allowed some things to happen which shouldn't have but if some of those things gave Stress you'd dump even more Stress on the ship which could be a longer penalty going forward.  It may have given most of a Stress free round but now it would be time to pay for what should have been payed before and maybe there'll be some interest with it.

[Parravon 5,216]

 

If I were the opposing player to the player who just largely benefited from this mistake, I'd feel pretty cheated if the judge just said "well, let's just put a stress token on the ships that should have been stressed" full knowing that red maneuvers had been executed illegally and that the current state should now be completely different.

 

To be quite frank, it's as much your fault the stress was missed as the other guy.  

 

The question to rewind has to be based on how fairly can the gamestate be set back to prior to the mistake?  If you've had ships that have moved and especially dice rolled, then it's fairly unlikely you can fairly rewind the game.

 

There is simply too great a margin for error in that case, to actually return the game to a correct game state. 

 

So yes one person gets a break, but both sides are at fault and there's no truly fair way to resolve it, short of correcting what you can and letting the game proceed. It becomes a matter of what will do the least harm.

 

I agree with VanorDM. The rollback would be extremely hard to achieve without some errors. And I also maintain that is both players that should be keeping an eye on these things. If this was the first instance of the Attanni Mindlink coming into play, then I could understand it if one or both players missed the extra stress tokens that should have been assigned. But if the Attanni Mindlink had been used earlier in the game, then both the user and the opponent know what should be happening each time tokens are assigned, and the fault must be shared equally.

 

As for how would I have resolved it, I think I would have just had to let the game progress from where they were, but remind both players to watch for it carefully in the future. Yes, one player will benefit and his opponent will feel penalised, but when a game has progressed past the point of no return, then there is no return. I sure wouldn't just apply a mass stress dump on the player, because I don't think that would be the fairest way to resolve it. 

 

You also can't simply say that several aspects of the game have now been compromised and some (red) manoeuvres were illegally performed, because they weren't. At the time those things happened, they were perfectly legal according to both players, because the (forgotten) stress tokens were not in play. If this was indeed an honest mistake, then you can only chalk it up to being a missed opportunity. Admittedly a significant one, but still a missed opportunity.

 

Should a player be looking out for upgrade triggers of his opponent? Absolutely! Especially when it's going to affect himself. Is it increasingly harder to do these days? You bet it is. Anyone can make a mistake playing this game. I know I still do. We're only human after all.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Parravon